60 replies to this topic

[saudoso]

Originally posted by JacnGille
Ummmmmm, fishin poles bend by design. They can be designed and constructed not to just as easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary

When the centerline of an arch is made to follow the curve of an up-side-down (ie. inverted) catenary, the arch endures almost pure compression, in which no significant bending moment occurs inside the material.

F1 wings and fishing poles are built in a very similar fashion BTW.

[JacnGille]

Beam me up Scottie, no intelligent life here.

[canon1753]

If it is ok'd by Herbie or Charlie or whomever it is legal. If it is later declared illegal it is illegal then. We all love it when drivers push it to the limits. For F1 engineers, there are fewer areas to push the limits, so you get the flex wing or mass damper or whatever and you get away with it until it is challenged and declared illegal or it become the newest greatest thing. That is F1 for you.

Nor would it work if everything was spec'd out- look at the IRL- everyone has Dallara-Hondas. Penske, Ganassi, AGR all have their own demon tweaks which cost a lot to do which makes them (objectively- yes they have the top drawer talent too) the quickest cars in a spec series.

Everyone is looking for the unfair (and legal) advantage, thus you have Stepneygate and the Toyota bit and huge nondisclosure contracts when going from one team to another.

Everyone is as competitive with each other within F1, everyone tries for the advantage. Everyone complains that whatever new the other guys are doing is illegal too.......

[saudoso]

Originally posted by JacnGille
Beam me up Scottie, no intelligent life here.

You can't understand or just don't want to?

[kar]

Watching the relative front wings in FP1 it didn't appear anyone's wings bent terribly much.

[JacnGille]

Originally posted by saudoso


You can't understand or just don't want to?

I understand perfectly. What part of "Ummmmmm, fishin poles bend by design. They can be designed and constructed not to (bend) just as easily." don't YOU understand??? Fishin poles and bridge aches are two completely different things. Conceived, designed, constructed and used for two compleletly different things. To compare their relative merits is beyond absurd.

[F1Champion]

Either way it was about time McLaren's front wing was sorted out. It has been flexing far too much and it has been overlooked for too many races by the teams and the FIA. Call me cynical but if Ferrari had a front wing like that it would of been spoken about by McLaren by now.

Those videos show that they would of been getting an advantage on straights as the entire bridge wing bends down reducing drag on the main straight.

It will be interesting to see onboard video of whether the changes have made a difference because in my opinion the fix doesn't necessarily change the two main planes either side of the fix.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

Originally posted by F1Champion
Either way it was about time McLaren's front wing was sorted out. It has been flexing far too much and it has been overlooked for too many races by the teams and the FIA. Call me cynical but if Ferrari had a front wing like that it would of been spoken about by McLaren by now.

Seeing as the FIA essentially works for Ferrari, I highly doubt that.

F1 would better is they banned all the cars and just let the Ferrari's cruise around or two hours. Yay.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by F1Champion
Those videos show that they would of been getting an advantage on straights as the entire bridge wing bends down reducing drag on the main straight.

If memory serves, that precise concern was raised following the wing's intro last year, but the FIA cleared it's use because the wing angle wasn't changing, merely oscillating up and down.

[F1Champion]

Originally posted by Villes Gilleneuve


Seeing as the FIA essentially works for Ferrari, I highly doubt that.

F1 would better is they banned all the cars and just let the Ferrari's cruise around or two hours. Yay.

Well generally when McLaren want changes they get them. In 2006 the front wing lasted no more than 4(?) races and the rear wing got slot gap separators put in pretty quick while in 2007 Ferrari got 1 race with their underfloor. How long has McLaren had this front wing flapping around......10 races?

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by HSJ


Possible, but obviously this arrangement allows (more) flexing than the Renault arrangement. It's like this: try to compress a metal or carbon fiber rod length-wise, you'll find it almost impossible. But try to bend it... The Renault support relies on resistance to compression, whereas the McL way relies on resistance to bending. Needless to say what the end result is. (Edit: seems like a few people need to brush up on their physics/mechanics. This case is obvious.)

Personally I hate it that teams (not just McL) so blatantly go against the spirit of the rules that say aero parts should not flex.

I agree with your last opinion.

Concerning the Renault centre "stay", I am not so sure ... because such a stay might simply allow the elements on either side to be softer, and hence bend more in their middle. Its quite easy to modify bend in composites of course, by changing the layering techniques, and the materials.

Also, looking at the video, only once though, there seems to be a lot of potential for a twisting element, and such a twist might change the wing quite a lot. In the Little America's Cup, the catamarans raced with vertical solid wings, not sails. And the wings were in several sections, each which rotated independently. The tail sections of the wings had flaps, and they could de-power the wing by either rotating it, or by adjusting the flap (the flaps resembled the flaps on an typical passenger jet).

If the wing can in any way move, then its efficiency will greatly change. It seems to me that in theory, if the wing could be moved by picking up some sideways force from the car, then the wing could be made to work more when in a corner. So if one could direct some energy into some area of the wing or its support or attachment area, then one could have a wing that has more downforce for going around corners, and with less downforce for the maximum speed on the straights. One would also need to get the wing to engage under brakes as well, as I presume that that is really important too.

I well recall Ross Brawn when he was still on leave, saying that the whole F1 cars were moving now. And he was talking about wing flex at the time.

IMO its impossible to stop flex issues by normal static measurement procedures, when the cars are in fact designed to change their aero characteristics only when being driving very hard at high speed with 800 hp being run through them.