93 replies to this topic

[IOU 16]

Originally posted by Rinehart
This sounds like Super America rather than Super Aguri, where instead of just putting a Japanese guy in a car, they have to put an American in the other one. All in all this will be about as successful as Super Aguri was, i.e. not very. Not bothered about small grids myself, if the other option is being padded out with tosh.

The thing with that is that Japan loved Sato. Unless you put some Nascar driver in, no one would notice or really care.

[kNt]

If they do some engineering in america I'd love it, if it's in england or so it's not that interesting but everyone is welcome to try.

[rodlamas]

The only drivers that would help a Honda US based aquad in F1 are Danica Patrick and, to a lesser extent, Helio Castroneves.

All the others are useless.

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by rodlamas
The only drivers that would help a Honda US based aquad in F1 are Danica Patrick and, to a lesser extent, Helio Castroneves.

All the others are useless.

Oh please let Danica Patrick go to F1.

What is the over under for her time off of pole at Spa? 10 seconds?

Marco Andretti would get some ink.

However, I think the American Honda F1 team is an internet meme and nothing more.

[jaisli]

To me, A US National team, with Honda engines just doesn't make sense. What makes it a US team? The lines are so blurred now-a-days, I wonder why, aside from tradition, they even bother with the constructor's national anthem. Is BMW, based in Hinwil, really a 'German' team. Is Toyota Motorsport based in Cologne really a 'Japanese' team. And if you visit any of these factories, they have such a mix of international talent, it's laughable.

I think big corporations should just adopt their own company anthems.

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by jaisli

I think big corporations should just adopt their own company anthems.

Rollerball, anyone?

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by random
So what other American, Honda drivers are there?

Well, he's not a Honda driver, but he's American and experienced in F1: Scott Speed!

[IOU 16]

Originally posted by William Hunt


Well, he's not a Honda driver, but he's American and experienced in F1: Scott Speed!

Too bad he is a slave to Red Bull and sounds happy wasting talent in Nascar.

[random]

Originally posted by rodlamas
The only drivers that would help a Honda US based aquad in F1 are Danica Patrick and, to a lesser extent, Helio Castroneves.

All the others are useless.

I really doubt either of them would even take the job.

Danica isn't stupid enough to go to a third-rate F1 team. This would be a Third Rate team. Danica already makes more money that most F1 drivers. She is well known in the largest market in the world, F1 would waste most of that. Further, she freely admits that she needs to up her road course skills.

Helio isn't from the US, so having him on "Team USA" would be completely useless.

Micro Andretti won't go to a third-rate F1 team either, neither will Graham Rahal. Both their fathers raced in F1, they know a dead-end when they see one.

The only remaining US Honda drivers worth considering are Ryan Hunter Reay and perhaps Buddy Rice. The rest of the US IndyCar drivers aren't even worth talking about. Sure, Scott Speed or AJ Almindinger would both be worthy selections, but both have contracts with Honda's nemesis. Even if they weren't driving Toyota's, I couldn't see either leaving Nascar for a third-rate F1 team.

I suppose any of the above could be convinced to go if they were paid well and Guaranteed a ride in the top Honda squad after a year or two at the lower squad. Even then, the deal would probably have to feature BIG penalty payments if Honda backed out.

[devil500]

Random...

Scott Speed and Almindinger are not contracted to Toyota at all they run for Red Bull racing not Toyota so it could happen..Heck I'd love a US F1 team, although I think they'd have to come in during the next regulation changes it's just stupid now because you'll still be behind everyone..

[noikeee]

http://www.grandprix...ns/ns20469.html

Another weird article, this time by Grandprix.com, where they start by saying the story is bullshit, then present arguments as to why it would be true.

[devil500]

Originally posted by paranoik0
http://www.grandprix...ns/ns20469.html

Another weird article, this time by Grandprix.com, where they start by saying the story is bullshit, then present arguments as to why it would be true.

You never know although I would be one to be happy it would be awesome to have an American based team and give the Americans a shot, and really maybe get some of the talent engineering wise into F1 from Nascar..

[random]

Originally posted by paranoik0
http://www.grandprix...ns/ns20469.html

Another weird article, this time by Grandprix.com, where they start by saying the story is bullshit, then present arguments as to why it would be true.

Actually they started by saying they found the story unlikely.

They then went on to say that however unlikely, if Honda were to back such an effort, they could probably pull it off in advance of the 2009 season.

I agree with the author on both counts.

[random]

Originally posted by devil500
Scott Speed and Almindinger are not contracted to Toyota at all they run for Red Bull racing not Toyota so it could happen..Heck I'd love a US F1 team, although I think they'd have to come in during the next regulation changes it's just stupid now because you'll still be behind everyone..

I know that they drive for the independently owned Red Bull team. Are you certain neither have a personal sponsorship with Toyota?

That aside, both have seen some relative success of late. I very much doubt either would trade their ride for third rate F1 team. Especially with the precedent of the Super Aguri fiasco so fresh in the air.

[devil500]

Most top drivers might have a deal say Toyota, but I think both only have deals from Red Bull..They might get some free cars from Toyota, but I doubt anything else.

[IOU 16]

They wear the logos on their fire suits. The team gets money and backing for running Toyota's in the series. They might get some kick back from it. But I doubt Toyota will go crazy if a driver wants to leave a team for another series. Leaving another team for a team in Nascar with a different manufacture? That could lead into a whole new mess. Kasey Kahne was sued by Ford for leaving to Dodge. There are a few other stories like that.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by paffett4F1



For Clarification

______________________Main Factory_______________Engine Manufacture_________Additional Support, R&D etc
Ferrari __________________Maranello, Italy_________________Maranello, Italy
McLaren Mercedes________Woking, Surrey, England__________Brixworth, Northants, England______Stuttgart, Germany
Toyota__________________Cologne, Germany_______________Cologne, Germany________________Higashifuji, Japan
Honda __________________Brackley, Northants, England ______Bracknell, Berks, England*_________Tochigi, Japan
Renault__________________Enstone, Oxon, England___________Viry-Chatillon, France
Red Bull Racing___________Milton Keynes, Bucks, England_____Viry-Chatillon, France
STR_____________________Faenza, Italy___________________Maranello, Italy
Williams_________________Grove, Oxon, England____________Cologne, Germany
Force India_______________Silverstone, Northants, England____Maranello, Italy
BMW Sauber_____________Hinwil, Switzerland_______________Munich, Germany

* Moving to Brackley

So of the 5 different F1 engines I make that one German, one French, one Italian and two British.

Two British? I thought that the Honda motors were made in the Honda R&D facility in Tochigi, Japan? Although with the homologation restrictions, maybe Honda are outsourcing the construction to the team site? Even Renault used to outsource the assembly of its F1 engines to another company. I would not classify the current Honda engines as being "British". Even if they were "made in" Britain.

For engines then, that leaves us with one company developing and making F1 engines in the UK - the ex Ilmor Mercedes plant. IMO Ilmor made some good engines, but they after Beryllium was banned Ilmor's engines were not as good. The tragic loss of one of the two partners in a fatal Mustang aeroplane crash also likely caused management problems. I think its a tall order to call the Mercedes Ilmor plant in the UK "British", since IMO the thing that made it competitive was active involvement with Mercedes itself.

There has only been two recent British engine companies involved in F1, and that is the older Ilmor and also Cosworth.

It would be interesting to know how much the mother companies will be involved in the KERS programs. Most teams have mentioned their parent companies when they refer to experience in KERS technologies. The only team that seems IMO to be using soley British technology is Williams, who bought a local company, and I don't know how much Toyota assistance Williams wants or will be able to or want to use.

Anyway thanks to the homologation rules, development in engines is not as critical as it was. The most important issue has been aero, although with KERS, and change to a more mechanical formula due to downforce rule changes, the overall packaging issues maybe the most important issue for next season, after the KERS decision for each team is made. Some teams are even developing two cars, due to uncertainty about KERS viability.

[Minisenna]

Ummm Ken Andersson....is he the same as in the photo when Rick Mears won Indy in 1988?



someone has a more recent?

Regards!

[Timstr11]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
[B]

Two British? I thought that the Honda motors were made in the Honda R&D facility in Tochigi, Japan?

Whilst most of the design and development work of the engine is done in Tochigi, Tochigi and Bracknell both shared testing and assembly of engines.
Now that Super Aguri has ceased it is possible engines will only be assembled in Bracknell (soon Brackley as they are in the process of moving their engine test and assemly facility to the main factory).

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by IOU 16
They wear the logos on their fire suits. The team gets money and backing for running Toyota's in the series. They might get some kick back from it. But I doubt Toyota will go crazy if a driver wants to leave a team for another series. Leaving another team for a team in Nascar with a different manufacture? That could lead into a whole new mess. Kasey Kahne was sued by Ford for leaving to Dodge. There are a few other stories like that.

In that case Kahne was under contract (albeit poorly) directly to Ford as they'd backed him in the junior ranks. He wasn't just a driver who happened to be racing Fords that year.

[Gecko]

Originally posted by random
You're right, the engines are made in France, in the same factory that makes (British team) Red Bull's motors.

Surely you mean the Austrian Red Bull team ;)?

[taran]

Originally posted by random

I really doubt either of them would even take the job.

Danica isn't stupid enough to go to a third-rate F1 team. This would be a Third Rate team. Danica already makes more money that most F1 drivers. She is well known in the largest market in the world, F1 would waste most of that.

Jeez, random, buy a clue


Driver's salaries in the USA are considered peanuts compared to F1. Even such stars as Jeff Gordon barely make $5m. Product endorsements provide additional income but that would hardly top $10m for the most famous drivers.

In F1, even Nick Heidfeld makes more the vast majority of the drivers in American series==> $11m.

An IRL team barely manages to get a racing budget of $10m-$20m. IRL stars are paid less than F1 rookies like Glock ($2m).

Danica Patrick 'only' earns $5m in endorsements, added to a annual salary that is below $1m although she does get to keep part of her prize money.
see : http://www.latimes.c...1,4747181.story

The truth is, any US based driver would love to go to F1, simply because it is the most prestigious and the best paying racing series. Even midfield F1 teams would pay considerably more for a driver than even a Team Penske could ever afford to.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by taran


Jeez, random, buy a clue


Driver's salaries in the USA are considered peanuts compared to F1. Even such stars as Jeff Gordon barely make $5m. Product endorsements provide additional income but that would hardly top $10m for the most famous drivers.

In F1, even Nick Heidfeld makes more the vast majority of the drivers in American series==> $11m.

Montoya made 11million last year, Jeff Gordon 32.

So uhm, carry on.

[taran]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


Montoya made 11million last year, Jeff Gordon 32.

So uhm, carry on.

According to Forbes.com, much of Jeff Gordon's annual income is derived from his position as team owner, not his driving salary or endorsements (which are already higher than his pure driving wages).

F1 income stats don't look at the ROI of drivers' other investments, so we should ignore Gordon's other income as well. Otherwise, we would have to add such things as Coulthard's hotel business, Trulli's wineries, Fisichella's racing team etc. etc. etc.

If you look at Gordon's income as a driver/sports personality it is less than Jenson Button. Gordon is a superstar in the USA (but nowhere else), Button a pathetic F1 wannabe/has been yet he makes much more as a driver.

Do the math......

[Ross Stonefeld]

F1 drivers get a higher base salary because they don't have the same opportunities of team shares, prize money, or personal endorsements.

At the end of the day Juan Montoya made 11million a year on the back of being a racing driver, and so did Nick Heidfeld. Whether it's money up front, from points scored, or beard length; is irrelevant.

[taran]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
F1 drivers get a higher base salary because they don't have the same opportunities of team shares, prize money, or personal endorsements.

At the end of the day Juan Montoya made 11million a year on the back of being a racing driver, and so did Nick Heidfeld. Whether it's money up front, from points scored, or beard length; is irrelevant.

Yeah, but the point is that only superstars like Gordon, Montoya or media magnet Patrick manage to make "decent" money in the USA while average drivers in F1 easily top that. Financially speaking, a move to F1 always makes more sense (if you can cut it there) which is not what random claims. He thinks that Patrick already makes more than most F1 drivers. Instead, she barely rates in the bottom half.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Which is exactly where she'd be in F1. Right now she's making more money than she would in F1.

[taran]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Which is exactly where she'd be in F1. Right now she's making more money than she would in F1.

That's a bold statement based on.....nothing.

Danica Patrick is paid less than Nelson Piquet or Timo Glock as a driver.
In endorsements, she earns an additional $5m.

The top three of endorsements for female athletes are Maria Sharapova with with an estimated $23 million, Michelle Wie ($19 million) and Serena Williams ($14 million).

All of them have international careers and therefore appeal to an international audience. If Patrick were to enter an international racing series like F1, it stands to reason she would be able to make even more in endorsements.

Let's remember, she shot to fame on her looks and the occasional (minor) result. Just being in F1 would ratchet up her sponsor appeal. If she managed some minor results in F1, she would be a global sponsorship vehicle.

[Ross Stonefeld]

But then you'd cry that her endorsement deals don't count as part of her income.

We know you hate American racing and seemingly critical thought too, you don't have to keep convincing us.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Which is exactly where she'd be in F1. Right now she's making more money than she would in F1.

Sure. Because in F1 she´d be test driver and PR gimmick to boost car sales in North America.

[taran]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
But then you'd cry that her endorsement deals don't count as part of her income.

We know you hate American racing and seemingly critical thought too, you don't have to keep convincing us.

I certainly don't hate American racing. I have been a fan of CART since 1983 and think it offers far more exciting racing than F1 in its post 1998 guise. I just recognize it for what it is, a national racing series.
Both CART and IRL are at a lower level compared to F1 in regards to technical excellence and driving talent and earnings potential.

The big bucks are in F1, that is a fact whatever you might think, Ross. So far I have seen statements from you about Patrick's earning potential in the USA vs. Europe but nothing to back it up. At least, I have given my reasoning.

[Slumberer]

"Team America - **** Yeah!"

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by taran


I certainly don't hate American racing. I have been a fan of CART since 1983 and think it offers far more exciting racing than F1 in its post 1998 guise. I just recognize it for what it is, a national racing series.
Both CART and IRL are at a lower level compared to F1 in regards to technical excellence and driving talent and earnings potential.

The big bucks are in F1, that is a fact whatever you might think, Ross. So far I have seen statements from you about Patrick's earning potential in the USA vs. Europe but nothing to back it up. At least, I have given my reasoning.

No what you saw was me correcting your error in assuming top American drivers don't make F1 equivalent salaries so I provided you examples.

Others have said Danica makes a lot of money. She doesn't make that much, but more than she'd be making at a backfield F1 team.

[random]

Originally posted by taran
Danica Patrick 'only' earns $5m in endorsements, added to a annual salary that is below $1m although she does get to keep part of her prize money.

I agree, five million in endorsements sounds about right, but the salary less than one million sounds completely wrong. I've heard that Danica makes many times more in salary than any other driver in the paddock. Perhaps Tony George kicks something in, I don't know. All I can say is from what I've heard, she does make more than a lot F1 drivers. I cede your point that she probably doesn't make more than "most". After looking over this year's roster, I believe she makes more than 40% of current F1 drivers, (45% before Super Aguri left). Close, but not quite "most".

That said, no one driving for a Third Rate F1 team makes more than Danica. Even if she were offered a higher salary, I doubt she would go. She has said as recently as St. Pete that she needed to up her road course skills.

Another reason she wouldn't jump to a crappy F1 team is that she is one of the best known female athletes in the largest single market on the Entire Planet. I will be the very first to point out her current management has terribly misused and underutilized her as a product. They put her in ads that look like sex-chat phone-ins. These cheap and skanky promos scare away perennial big money sponsors. She should dump GoDaddy with all available speed and start going for the real money. Grocery (Proctor and Gamble, Kellogs, Kraft), telecom, the auto manufacturers, the cosmetic companies. She should be pulling in 15 million in endorsements, not five. If she ever dumps her unprofessional management and signs on with a firm capable of realizing her actual potential, she could soon be pulling in more than any F1 driver except the F1 World Champions.

Originally posted by taran
The truth is, any US based driver would love to go to F1, simply because it is the most prestigious and the best paying racing series. Even midfield F1 teams would pay considerably more for a driver than even a Team Penske could ever afford to.

The truth is, you're wrong. Neither Danica, Marco Andretti, nor Graham Rahal would likely take an F1 ride at a third rate team. Neither would most of the top Nascar stars. Kyle Busch recently said he wanted to drive in F1, but probably wouldn't go to a non-winning squad like Toyota F1, Busch is currently a Toyota driver!

Danica, as I pointed out above would be crazy to leave the largest single market in the world for a third rate F1 team. Marco and Graham are both very young, both have won races, both have fathers who raced in F1. While they would probably leave for a ride in a second rate team (Honda, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams), you are fooling yourself if you believe they would leave their current race-winning teams to languish at a third rate F1 squad.

[IOU 16]

Originally posted by random


The truth is, you're wrong. Neither Danica, Marco Andretti, nor Graham Rahal would likely take an F1 ride at a third rate team. Neither would most of the top Nascar stars. Kyle Busch recently said he wanted to drive in F1, but probably wouldn't go to a non-winning squad like Toyota F1, Busch is currently a Toyota driver!

Danica, as I pointed out above would be crazy to leave the largest single market in the world for a third rate F1 team. Marco and Graham are both very young, both have won races, both have fathers who raced in F1. While they would probably leave for a ride in a second rate team (Honda, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams), you are fooling yourself if you believe they would leave their current race-winning teams to languish at a third rate F1 squad. [/B]

I think Kyle just wants a new challenge. Once he win the Nascar title, he wants something new to conquer.

Nascar pays just as well as F1, so saying many Nascar guys would go to F1 is kinda wrong.

Graham Rahal would leave to join F1 with really any team that will let him show some ability.

[random]

Originally posted by IOU 16
I think Kyle just wants a new challenge. Once he win the Nascar title, he wants something new to conquer.

Nascar pays just as well as F1, so saying many Nascar guys would go to F1 is kinda wrong.

Graham Rahal would leave to join F1 with really any team that will let him show some ability.

Another reason a lot of Nascar drivers wouldn't go to F1 is the F1 schedule. They like living in the US with their families. As Michael Andretti proved, commuting to F1 from the US is not a winning formula.

As for Graham Rahal, had he not won his Very First IndyCar race, were Newman Haas not continually upping their game, sure, maybe he'd go to a third rate F1 team.

That is not what has happened. Rahal did win his very first IndyCar race and Newman Haas is a well funded team that is quickly getting better. As I said, he'd probably go to a second rate F1 team, but I very much doubt he or any of the other stars would leave for the likes of Super Aguri.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by random

That said, no one driving for a Third Rate F1 team makes more than Danica. Even if she were offered a higher salary, I doubt she would go. She has said as recently as St. Pete that she needed to up her road course skills.

Something doesn´t add up here ;)

Seriously, that was smart thing to say. Zero pro level road course wins in her entire life! F1!? Whoa. In some interviews she made it look like F1 teams want her (PR), but she prefers IRL. The fact is she doesn´t even have 1% of the CV required for proper F1 seat, and thus it isn´t her call to make.

The truth is, you're wrong. Neither Danica, Marco Andretti, nor Graham Rahal would likely take an F1 ride at a third rate team. Neither would most of the top Nascar stars. Kyle Busch recently said he wanted to drive in F1, but probably wouldn't go to a non-winning squad like Toyota F1, Busch is currently a Toyota driver!

People can say whatever they want. As long as concrete offers don´t exist, it´s all BS.

What do you expect? "I´d leave my team and my fans RIGHT AWAY if them Euro boys called me". That´s pissing on your supporters for no reason at all. Maybe they wouldn´t leave. Maybe they would leave. Who knows? Either way, their answers go like this : "ya know, if Ferrari or McLaren offered some really nice contract, I´d think about it. But I love my team, my sponsor, and my fans too much to leave. Nah, I´ll stick with struggling open-wheel series that gets whipped by NASCAR". I do believe Kyle Busch would choose NASCAR over back end F1 team. But we can only guess.

Danica, as I pointed out above would be crazy to leave the largest single market in the world for a third rate F1 team. Marco and Graham are both very young, both have won races, both have fathers who raced in F1. While they would probably leave for a ride in a second rate team (Honda, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams), you are fooling yourself if you believe they would leave their current race-winning teams to languish at a third rate F1 squad.

Sebastian Bourdais used to say the same thing

(and he was more accomplished than Danica, Marco & Graham put together)

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by taran


Yeah, but the point is that only superstars like Gordon, Montoya or media magnet Patrick manage to make "decent" money in the USA.

I refute in the name of Michael Waltrip

[Ross Stonefeld]

Oh I'm sure between Napa, Toyota, and Aaron's MW is making a ****ing ridiculous amount of money.

[IOU 16]

Originally posted by AyePirate


I refute in the name of Michael Waltrip

So true.

Same goes for the Red Bull Racing guys. Allmendinger and Vickers have a few flashes of brilliance in the past two years, but are both taking in the Red Bull money.

[random]

Originally posted by Spunout
Sebastian Bourdais used to say the same thing
(and he was more accomplished than Danica, Marco & Graham put together)

Not so much. Sebass was continually pining for Europe.

You are absolutely right that Bourdais is a much better road course driver than any current (known) US driver, perhaps save AJ Almindinger. There's a good reason Sebass left the States. The reason is that Sebass could never become a big star here. Why?

Firstly because Sebastian Bourdais has every bit as much rugged masculinity as does Kyle Bush. He then mixes this with a sometimes whiny demeanor, no visible sense of humor and a tops it off with a thick French accent. That does not a US star make.

Great driver, Fantastic driver. Not a good fit for the US market. Sure, I suppose he could have been a "Talladega Nights" ish anti-hero in Nascar... That would have been funny as hell and he probably could have cleaned up in endorsements. Given Nascar's go-or-go-home rules, it would have been a real throw of the dice.

It was utterly predictable that Sebass would jump at any F1 offer. It was obvious that Sebass was continually pining for Europe. That simply isn't the case with most top US drivers. Becoming a father probably pushed him even further. I would bet he and his wife very much wanted to raise a French kid, not an American one. A few years in the US and their kid would have been American through and through.

[pingu666]

seabass had done alot, and achived alot in america too, bet he has a reasonable amount stashed away aswell, if he doesnt make it in f1 its no big deal to him

[Spunout]

Originally posted by random


Not so much. Sebass was continually pining for Europe.

You are absolutely right that Bourdais is a much better road course driver than any current (known) US driver, perhaps save AJ Almindinger. There's a good reason Sebass left the States. The reason is that Sebass could never become a big star here. Why?

Firstly because Sebastian Bourdais has every bit as much rugged masculinity as does Kyle Bush. He then mixes this with a sometimes whiny demeanor, no visible sense of humor and a tops it off with a thick French accent. That does not a US star make.

Great driver, Fantastic driver. Not a good fit for the US market. Sure, I suppose he could have been a "Talladega Nights" ish anti-hero in Nascar... That would have been funny as hell and he probably could have cleaned up in endorsements. Given Nascar's go-or-go-home rules, it would have been a real throw of the dice.

It was utterly predictable that Sebass would jump at any F1 offer. It was obvious that Sebass was continually pining for Europe. That simply isn't the case with most top US drivers. Becoming a father probably pushed him even further. I would bet he and his wife very much wanted to raise a French kid, not an American one. A few years in the US and their kid would have been American through and through.

You know what´s really funny? There is "Talladega Nights" ish dude in NASCAR, as we speak. He loves fashion, expensive restaurants, euro cars...you name it. Recently he received pedicure, painted his toenails blue and showed them to the press after winning All-American race called Monster Mile.

Luckily for this dude, his name is Scott Speed.

[Spunout]

PS. loved the "rugged masculinity" part. For many...it´s rather ball-shaped masculinity (mostly around belly area), spiced up with lotsa MacDonalds food, Japanese SUV and 5 hours of Talk Shows per day. And still Seb isn´t man enough to represent these modern world John Wayne types.

Go figure