Hey guys,
Last week I picked up an interesting model of the above mentioned. Its a sharp little cigar and the money was burning a hole in my pocket so I went for it. Does anyone know anything about the actual car or drivers? The directions are in Japanese but have the years 1959 and 1960 in them. The model is labeled Team Ikuzawa and can be built in either a T. Ikuzawa or a Chris Irwin version. Any help on the subject would be greatly appreciated as I'd like to grab up some reference pics for it.
Thanks in advance,
Keith Steele
Is this a 1960s Brabham F3 model?
Started by
Keith Steele
, Sep 30 2000 03:38
45 replies to this topic
Advertisement
#2
jarama
-
- 1,129 posts
- Joined: September 00
Member
Posted 30 September 2000 - 08:49
If I'm not wrong, the first car produced wearing the name Brabham saw the light in 1962, being the result of the merging between Jack Brabham and Ron Tauranac, hence the BT family name of this cars.
Both of them set up Motor Racing Developments as an offshoot of Jack Brabham (Motors) Ltd. in 1961. The first car was the MRD BT1, while the second was the first in displaying the new brand name: the Brabham BT2. It appeared in 1962 as a F-Junior contendant, driven by Jo Schlesser, Frank Gardner, Bob Olthoff and Augie Pabst among others.
The first Brabham competing in F-3 events was, to my knowledge, the BT6 in 1964.
Then, what about this F-3 Brabham of 1959/60?
Both of them set up Motor Racing Developments as an offshoot of Jack Brabham (Motors) Ltd. in 1961. The first car was the MRD BT1, while the second was the first in displaying the new brand name: the Brabham BT2. It appeared in 1962 as a F-Junior contendant, driven by Jo Schlesser, Frank Gardner, Bob Olthoff and Augie Pabst among others.
The first Brabham competing in F-3 events was, to my knowledge, the BT6 in 1964.
Then, what about this F-3 Brabham of 1959/60?
#3
Ray Bell
-
- 81,889 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 30 September 2000 - 11:54
Unlikely... by 1960 F3 was near dead. By the same token, Cosworth was not yet alive!
Formula Junior ran rampant for a while, supplanting F3, but was replaced by a new derivative in 1964 (?) with an attempt to contain costs and power levels being a serious part of the makeup of the formula. In other words, the 500cc F3 was never to see a Cosworth engine, these coming into being during the FJr era and being on top as the new 1000cc F3 came into being.
MRD, by the way, was ditched because of the closeness of the name to the French word for excrement.... and it must be added that Gavin Youl won a FJr title in the MRD that came to its spiritual home. Did Gardner really drive one?
Formula Junior ran rampant for a while, supplanting F3, but was replaced by a new derivative in 1964 (?) with an attempt to contain costs and power levels being a serious part of the makeup of the formula. In other words, the 500cc F3 was never to see a Cosworth engine, these coming into being during the FJr era and being on top as the new 1000cc F3 came into being.
MRD, by the way, was ditched because of the closeness of the name to the French word for excrement.... and it must be added that Gavin Youl won a FJr title in the MRD that came to its spiritual home. Did Gardner really drive one?
#4
William Dale Jr
-
- 405 posts
- Joined: April 00
Member
Posted 30 September 2000 - 12:01
I read in an interview with Ron Tauranac by Mike Kable in Motor Racing Australia magazine from 1993 (number 7, if anyone is interested), and it said there that the BT chassis designation was applied retrospectively to the 13 cars already made when a journalist thought the cars ought to have a numbering sequence - BT. And that the company name Motor Racing Developments Ltd (MRD) was forsaken when Jabby Crombac told Jack that it was rather similar to the French word 'merde' - translate it through Altavista if you don't know what it means because I'm too young and not supposed to say things like that... So the name was changed to Brabham Racing Developments.
The article was a very good read with many good pictures, including ones of an exhausted Jack Brabham at Sebring after pushing his car over the line, one of Jochen Rindt in the wet at Warwick Farm in 1969 and one of Geoff Brabham's first F3 race in England.
Where did that post above mine come from??? It wasn't there when I started
Welcome back Ray![p][Edited by William Dale Jr on 09-30-2000]
The article was a very good read with many good pictures, including ones of an exhausted Jack Brabham at Sebring after pushing his car over the line, one of Jochen Rindt in the wet at Warwick Farm in 1969 and one of Geoff Brabham's first F3 race in England.
Where did that post above mine come from??? It wasn't there when I started
Welcome back Ray![p][Edited by William Dale Jr on 09-30-2000]
#5
Ray Bell
-
- 81,889 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 30 September 2000 - 12:29
A typical lightweight Kable story. But let's not speak ill of the dead. Interested in my eulogy of the man, done for the HRR Newsletter?
Too bad if you're not!
A COUPLE OF months ago I had my final words with Mike, and then Max rang to say he’d rushed to see him on his final day only to miss out by a short time. But many didn’t, for Mike had wanted to see his old friends, and they had gathered around as Joy tended him in those last hours.
He had been around forever, Mike, his TC, his writings in various magazines and newspapers. I met him back in 1962 when he was Editor of Sports Car World, then later he provided me with an alternative home when I chose to leave the family nest, boarding with he and Joy just as The Australian came to life and their eldest son, Gregory, was born.
Reading through the various eulogies in that paper proved interesting, for each of the writers addressed his bad habits. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that before, and it was certainly an interesting sidelight to the life and death story of someone you have known.
They recounted how he was never on time, that he knew the world would have to wait for him. The way he believed he spoke fluent Italian, for he loved Italy and spent a lot of time there as he grew older, but that Italians had a very hard time understanding him - with Alfa Romeo and Fiat functions being a source of great humour for those around him as he failed to notice or be embarrassed at the Italians’ lack of comprehension of his utterances in his ‘second tongue.’
At 65, one must say that Mike left us too soon, the victim of yet another example of the scourge that is cancer. He left in the manner in which he would have loved, however, with telegrams and phone calls from people like Stirling Moss. . . sorry, Sir Stirling, and Sir Jack, and Bernie Ecclestone and many, many more.
At his bedside were friends from the writing and racing fields by great numbers.
He had told me in March he’d be heading to Italy for one last time, and he did, with Joy leaving him to head home again only to get a message that he had taken a turn for the worse. She had been forced to go back to accompany him on his final flight back to Australia.
When I think of little things that happened with Mike in my past, I can see the pleasure he helped me find.
Out thrashing around in road test cars, giving me a drive of his hallowed TC, learning some of the finer points of life and living as I spent a couple of years in his home at an impressionable age.
I saw his love of helping those with whom he saw he had an affinity, such as providing storage space for spare parts gathered by the MG ‘T Register.’ I saw also his determination to prove himself right, thrashing a Holden to near-death because it had been given to him in a condition less than worthy of a road tester of his stature. He later told me that he had been right, that they had found that the chassis alignment was out due to some damage the car had suffered in transit.
Mike raced on a few occasions, too. When Fiat provided journalists with 124s for a special race at
Warwick Farm being one instance, and another was the Historic race at the final Bathurst Easter meeting in 1973, where he drove John Lackey’s TC to seventh place and lapped in 3:33.
Mike sometimes talked about having been a three-year-old and being sat upon a fence post at his native Bathurst to see the cars in the first race meeting there. But later in life he guarded jealously his age, seemingly afraid of being regarded as ‘old.’
If I can add anything to the many things written about him since his death, it would be about his driving. There is no denying that Mike was a good driver, but never when he wanted to show that he was. I recall times when he was ‘being himself’ and his progress was smooth and quick. Then there were times when he was showing how good he was, and then he was rough, almost erratic, and certainly slower.
Geoff Sykes added a term to my vocabulary once when Bob Levett and I were talking about journalists.
“Unstable Kable I call him,” said Geoff. Hardly an expression one would expect from a person so
well-respected in Motor Racing about someone now being vaunted as the ‘doyen of motoring journalists.’ But, as the words of Donald K. Thomson keep coming back to mind, I see how they are held true. “An obituary is not a biography,” he wrote, “designed to paint the definitive picture of a man, with his faults evaluated equally with his virtues. The convention of such tributes often tends to invest those who have gone with a sort of aura of unalloyed goodness, which is at odds with all human experience; and hence obituaries sometimes must be read for what they omit as much as for what they include.”
Those words have clung to me, and while they have somehow inspired me on occasion, they have also helped me determine that I don’t fall into the trap of embellishing the memory of a departed one without warrant. In truth, all of those we know, live with, learn from and appreciate in our lives have a worth. Mike had his, and I feel the mixed emotions expressed by those who have written about his passing are all true.
None would recognise this more that the ever-patient and ever accommodating Joy, whose loss of her partner of three and a half decades she will bear heavily. To her and their sons we express our condolences.
Too bad if you're not!
A COUPLE OF months ago I had my final words with Mike, and then Max rang to say he’d rushed to see him on his final day only to miss out by a short time. But many didn’t, for Mike had wanted to see his old friends, and they had gathered around as Joy tended him in those last hours.
He had been around forever, Mike, his TC, his writings in various magazines and newspapers. I met him back in 1962 when he was Editor of Sports Car World, then later he provided me with an alternative home when I chose to leave the family nest, boarding with he and Joy just as The Australian came to life and their eldest son, Gregory, was born.
Reading through the various eulogies in that paper proved interesting, for each of the writers addressed his bad habits. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that before, and it was certainly an interesting sidelight to the life and death story of someone you have known.
They recounted how he was never on time, that he knew the world would have to wait for him. The way he believed he spoke fluent Italian, for he loved Italy and spent a lot of time there as he grew older, but that Italians had a very hard time understanding him - with Alfa Romeo and Fiat functions being a source of great humour for those around him as he failed to notice or be embarrassed at the Italians’ lack of comprehension of his utterances in his ‘second tongue.’
At 65, one must say that Mike left us too soon, the victim of yet another example of the scourge that is cancer. He left in the manner in which he would have loved, however, with telegrams and phone calls from people like Stirling Moss. . . sorry, Sir Stirling, and Sir Jack, and Bernie Ecclestone and many, many more.
At his bedside were friends from the writing and racing fields by great numbers.
He had told me in March he’d be heading to Italy for one last time, and he did, with Joy leaving him to head home again only to get a message that he had taken a turn for the worse. She had been forced to go back to accompany him on his final flight back to Australia.
When I think of little things that happened with Mike in my past, I can see the pleasure he helped me find.
Out thrashing around in road test cars, giving me a drive of his hallowed TC, learning some of the finer points of life and living as I spent a couple of years in his home at an impressionable age.
I saw his love of helping those with whom he saw he had an affinity, such as providing storage space for spare parts gathered by the MG ‘T Register.’ I saw also his determination to prove himself right, thrashing a Holden to near-death because it had been given to him in a condition less than worthy of a road tester of his stature. He later told me that he had been right, that they had found that the chassis alignment was out due to some damage the car had suffered in transit.
Mike raced on a few occasions, too. When Fiat provided journalists with 124s for a special race at
Warwick Farm being one instance, and another was the Historic race at the final Bathurst Easter meeting in 1973, where he drove John Lackey’s TC to seventh place and lapped in 3:33.
Mike sometimes talked about having been a three-year-old and being sat upon a fence post at his native Bathurst to see the cars in the first race meeting there. But later in life he guarded jealously his age, seemingly afraid of being regarded as ‘old.’
If I can add anything to the many things written about him since his death, it would be about his driving. There is no denying that Mike was a good driver, but never when he wanted to show that he was. I recall times when he was ‘being himself’ and his progress was smooth and quick. Then there were times when he was showing how good he was, and then he was rough, almost erratic, and certainly slower.
Geoff Sykes added a term to my vocabulary once when Bob Levett and I were talking about journalists.
“Unstable Kable I call him,” said Geoff. Hardly an expression one would expect from a person so
well-respected in Motor Racing about someone now being vaunted as the ‘doyen of motoring journalists.’ But, as the words of Donald K. Thomson keep coming back to mind, I see how they are held true. “An obituary is not a biography,” he wrote, “designed to paint the definitive picture of a man, with his faults evaluated equally with his virtues. The convention of such tributes often tends to invest those who have gone with a sort of aura of unalloyed goodness, which is at odds with all human experience; and hence obituaries sometimes must be read for what they omit as much as for what they include.”
Those words have clung to me, and while they have somehow inspired me on occasion, they have also helped me determine that I don’t fall into the trap of embellishing the memory of a departed one without warrant. In truth, all of those we know, live with, learn from and appreciate in our lives have a worth. Mike had his, and I feel the mixed emotions expressed by those who have written about his passing are all true.
None would recognise this more that the ever-patient and ever accommodating Joy, whose loss of her partner of three and a half decades she will bear heavily. To her and their sons we express our condolences.
#6
John Cross
-
- 139 posts
- Joined: March 00
Member
Posted 30 September 2000 - 12:37
I think you might have a model of the Brabham BT15. This was their 1965-66 F3 car and Chris Irwin raced it in 1966, powered by a Cosworth engine. The years must be a misprint (hardly unknown!). If the box has a picture on it, maybe you can scan it and post it here for further scrutiny...
#7
Keith Steele
-
- 2,901 posts
- Joined: January 99
Member
Posted 30 September 2000 - 21:25
Team Ikuzawa version with Irwin under it.
I appologize for this picture as I couldnt get a crisp pic of the side of the box, but this is the Chris Irwin car in British racing green.
With the sunlight I can see that in the Japanese instructions it must be a history as there are a few years listed. Possibly the team started in 1959. Then there is a sentence about 1960. MRD is mentioned for the 1961. Then BT17, 18, 21 after the 1962. Skips 1963. 1000 c.c., D.C.O.E 45, 105 hp/9800 rpm, F3, "F-1" after the 1964. Skips 1965-7. Then mentions the BT 21B after the 1968. I will bring it to work Monday and have one of the guys I work with decipher it.
I might add that on occasion I have seen model directions with incorrect information in the past. It's rare but it does happen. The Ikuzawa sponsor decals are NGK, VAN, and a white four leaf clover inside of a blue circle. Is it possible that the car is the 1968 version since it has sponsorship, or did F3 have sponsorship before then? The Irwin car carries no sponsorship but does have his name with white letters inside a red rectangle like Clark and Hill's Lotus 49's. Again, I appreciate the help.
I appologize for this picture as I couldnt get a crisp pic of the side of the box, but this is the Chris Irwin car in British racing green.
With the sunlight I can see that in the Japanese instructions it must be a history as there are a few years listed. Possibly the team started in 1959. Then there is a sentence about 1960. MRD is mentioned for the 1961. Then BT17, 18, 21 after the 1962. Skips 1963. 1000 c.c., D.C.O.E 45, 105 hp/9800 rpm, F3, "F-1" after the 1964. Skips 1965-7. Then mentions the BT 21B after the 1968. I will bring it to work Monday and have one of the guys I work with decipher it.
I might add that on occasion I have seen model directions with incorrect information in the past. It's rare but it does happen. The Ikuzawa sponsor decals are NGK, VAN, and a white four leaf clover inside of a blue circle. Is it possible that the car is the 1968 version since it has sponsorship, or did F3 have sponsorship before then? The Irwin car carries no sponsorship but does have his name with white letters inside a red rectangle like Clark and Hill's Lotus 49's. Again, I appreciate the help.
#8
Ray Bell
-
- 81,889 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 01 October 2000 - 10:15
I think you'll find that advertising wasn't under a total ban prior to 1968, but that the size of signage was severely limited.
#9
fines
-
- 9,647 posts
- Joined: September 00
Member
Posted 02 October 2000 - 23:18
If I remember well, Chris Irwin retired from racing after crashing at the Nürburgring 1000 km practice May 17, 1968 in a 3-litre Ford prototype. By then he had already left Brabham for whom he drove in 1966, mainly in F3 but occasionally also in F2 and even F1.
I would conclude that this was an ex-works Brabham, originally driven by Irwin and then sold to Tetsu Ikuzawa who first appeared in F3 in 1966 I think, driving a Lotus. That year Irwin drove a BT18A in F3. Well, what about the BT21? That was the 1967 F3 Brabham, but to my knowledge Irwin didn't race in F3 anymore by that time, or did he? He was driving a works Lola in F2 by then.
Anyway, all F3 and F2 Brabhams from 1964 (BT9/10) to 1968 (BT21B/23C) looked remarkably similar. BT17 was a sports car, so it's out of question. I would plump for a BT21 or BT21B because of the wider rear tyres.
I would conclude that this was an ex-works Brabham, originally driven by Irwin and then sold to Tetsu Ikuzawa who first appeared in F3 in 1966 I think, driving a Lotus. That year Irwin drove a BT18A in F3. Well, what about the BT21? That was the 1967 F3 Brabham, but to my knowledge Irwin didn't race in F3 anymore by that time, or did he? He was driving a works Lola in F2 by then.
Anyway, all F3 and F2 Brabhams from 1964 (BT9/10) to 1968 (BT21B/23C) looked remarkably similar. BT17 was a sports car, so it's out of question. I would plump for a BT21 or BT21B because of the wider rear tyres.
#10
Ray Bell
-
- 81,889 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 03 October 2000 - 11:42
BT17 a Sports Car? I don't remember that... there was the BT5 and was it the BT8? Any pictures anywhere?
#11
fines
-
- 9,647 posts
- Joined: September 00
Member
Posted 03 October 2000 - 14:48
Uuh, I'm not really interested in Sports Cars, so I'm a little bit out of my depth here. This information comes from the Brabham type reference at www.race-cars.com/utility/brabhamr.htm. Actually it says "Sports Racer, Repco V8", with only a single car built in 1966. I remember having seen another Brabham type reference in the Swiss magazine "Powerslide", but I can't remember the issue. Will have to look this one up...
#12
John Cross
-
- 139 posts
- Joined: March 00
Member
Posted 03 October 2000 - 21:20
I think it is a BT18A - like fines says, Chris drove this in 1966, winning 9 races. Here is a picture of the BT18 (the F2 version) - it looks very similar to the model apart from the engine:
#13
fines
-
- 9,647 posts
- Joined: September 00
Member
Posted 03 October 2000 - 21:54
But so do the BT9, BT15, BT21 and BT21B, John! Only thing for certain is it wasn't an F2 because Ikuzawa never raced in F2 before 1970 (Lotus 69). I think it narrows down to BT18A or one of the BT21 models. If it's an ex-Irwin car then it should be a BT18A since I don't think Chris raced in F3 thereafter.
#14
Ray Bell
-
- 81,889 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 03 October 2000 - 22:41
There is an expert on this subject, raced the SR4a for a while... what is his name, Barry, you there? The Sports Car guy from around Peakhurst...
#15
Barry Lake
-
- 2,169 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 03 October 2000 - 23:43
Bryan Miller easternraceparts@hotmail.com
Last time I spoke to him he seems to have moved on from Brabhams, now racing later historic cars.
But he had all the Australian Brabhams documented and is more knowledgeable on Brabham models, chassis numbers and technical details than anyone I ever have met.
He used to be a major contributor to the Paul Sheldon books (in many areas, not just Brabhams) but became annoyed and dropped out when they did not use updated material he sent them. He at one time distributed the books in Australia but dropped that at the same time.
He appeared to be frustrated not so much at inaccuracies and omissions but that many of them were not necessary because the information did exist - such as in his records and, as another example, in the records I and others kept of F5000 cars that raced in Australia.
Last time I spoke to him he seems to have moved on from Brabhams, now racing later historic cars.
But he had all the Australian Brabhams documented and is more knowledgeable on Brabham models, chassis numbers and technical details than anyone I ever have met.
He used to be a major contributor to the Paul Sheldon books (in many areas, not just Brabhams) but became annoyed and dropped out when they did not use updated material he sent them. He at one time distributed the books in Australia but dropped that at the same time.
He appeared to be frustrated not so much at inaccuracies and omissions but that many of them were not necessary because the information did exist - such as in his records and, as another example, in the records I and others kept of F5000 cars that raced in Australia.
#16
Ray Bell
-
- 81,889 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 04 October 2000 - 06:18
Thanks, Barry, he's the one... all I could think of was that his name was fairly common, but spelled a little unusually...
#17
John Cross
-
- 139 posts
- Joined: March 00
Member
Posted 04 October 2000 - 19:35
Michael (sorry, I missed your sig before!),
All these Brabhams had a great family resemblance, but there were definite differences - Hodges says "the BT21 chassis was a little shallower than the BT18, the suspension was modified in detail and the bodywork was new". I can't see much difference, but here are the main contenders:
BT16 (F2 car, same bodywork as BT15 F3 car):
BT18 (ditto, reversed for easier comparison) - notice the more widely spaced rear links, especially at the leading edge:
BT21 - the leading edges of the rear links are now vertically aligned, whereas the upper was forward of the lower in the previous two:
Looking at the box pics, this definitely rules out the BT21, although it doesn't quite look like the others either...
I hope this helps, Keith!
All these Brabhams had a great family resemblance, but there were definite differences - Hodges says "the BT21 chassis was a little shallower than the BT18, the suspension was modified in detail and the bodywork was new". I can't see much difference, but here are the main contenders:
BT16 (F2 car, same bodywork as BT15 F3 car):
BT18 (ditto, reversed for easier comparison) - notice the more widely spaced rear links, especially at the leading edge:
BT21 - the leading edges of the rear links are now vertically aligned, whereas the upper was forward of the lower in the previous two:
Looking at the box pics, this definitely rules out the BT21, although it doesn't quite look like the others either...
I hope this helps, Keith!
#18
John Cross
-
- 139 posts
- Joined: March 00
Member
Posted 04 October 2000 - 20:09
The rollover hoops are somewhat different as well.
#19
Ray Bell
-
- 81,889 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 05 October 2000 - 18:04
Not so much the hoops as the height of the rear bodywork, or the engine cover. I think there were differences in the chassis where the Hewland mounted to the top beam of the rear bulkhead, but I don't know what the differences were. Some were removable and some weren't, from memory.
But don't trust my memory, ask Britto.
But don't trust my memory, ask Britto.
Advertisement
#20
Keith Steele
-
- 2,901 posts
- Joined: January 99
Member
Posted 06 October 2000 - 06:31
Thanks guys for all the research. I finally had time to ask my Japanese friend at work to have a look at the instructions and apparently the paragraph was about Jack Brabham. The 1959 and 1960 discussed him winning the championship, the forming of the team etc.. Team Ikuzawa is barely mentioned at all. It talks about F1 being the training ground for F1 yada yada. He was pretty certain it was a BT21B of 1968 according to the instructions. This still doesnt answer the Chris Irwin running F3 past 1966. Of course, two model companies can make the same model kit and you'll find differences so one must be inaccurate, I imagine they might have taken some creative license. Again thanks for the help, I think I can piece it together now. I'll be sure to post a pic after its built.
#21
John-w
-
- 183 posts
- Joined: August 05
Member
Posted 12 November 2008 - 19:32
Hello,
can anybody help me to identify this Brabham F3 Heller model kit in scale 1/24th.
Instrucion:
Box:
Photos from the original Piers Courage car are welcome.
John-w
can anybody help me to identify this Brabham F3 Heller model kit in scale 1/24th.
Instrucion:
Box:
Photos from the original Piers Courage car are welcome.
John-w
#22
SWB
-
- 244 posts
- Joined: October 07
Member
Posted 12 November 2008 - 21:42
A BT 18A? I think they also released a Matra F2, Lotus 49, Brabham BT33 and McLaren M7 in the same series.
Steve
Steve
#23
Cirrus
-
- 1,756 posts
- Joined: February 03
Member
Posted 12 November 2008 - 21:58
I'd have said a BT15. The rear suspension layout in the picture looks as though it is based around the earlier "short" rear upright.
... I'll get me anorak.....
... I'll get me anorak.....
#24
S&M Minis
-
- 102 posts
- Joined: December 06
Member
Posted 13 November 2008 - 03:48
The top and side panel of the box lid and portions of the instruction sheet from an AMT (U.S. model company) release of the Heller Brabham and Matra in a "double kit". The box is huge, possibly to fool those unfamiliar with formula cars into thinking they were getting something bigger. The box currently holds the unbuilt Heller kits and a built-up Tamiya 1/12 Lotus 49, with room to spare! The poorly translated instruction sheets list the cars as a "Brabham BT 17.21" and a "Matra MS5". There is no date on the instruction sheet or box, but the back of the decal sheet is marked 8-69. That's about the time frame that I bought the kit, the first Heller kit I had encountered. I doubt that it sold well in the U.S. The sponsorship decals are pure U.S. stockcar stuff. Someday I might build them.
The Brabham kit appears to have a pushrod motor (Cosworth MAE?) with an intake manifold with a single carburetor mounting flange. The Weber carb casting is poorly done but has two intake trumpets. Weren't the FIII engines of the period limited to a single carb throat, with a single throat of a DCOE being used on Ford-based engines?
Edit: I just noticed that the heller instruction sheet posted previously also lists the Brabham as a BT 17.21.
The Brabham kit appears to have a pushrod motor (Cosworth MAE?) with an intake manifold with a single carburetor mounting flange. The Weber carb casting is poorly done but has two intake trumpets. Weren't the FIII engines of the period limited to a single carb throat, with a single throat of a DCOE being used on Ford-based engines?
Edit: I just noticed that the heller instruction sheet posted previously also lists the Brabham as a BT 17.21.
#25
LOTI
-
- 300 posts
- Joined: August 04
Member
Posted 13 November 2008 - 07:41
If it is any help, Chris did not race for Brabham in 1967 but did race F3 for The Chequered Flag and F1 in just one race, the British Grand Prix at Brands Hatch and several F2 races for Brabham in 1966.
#26
SWB
-
- 244 posts
- Joined: October 07
Member
Posted 13 November 2008 - 08:39
.Edit: I just noticed that the heller instruction sheet posted previously also lists the Brabham as a BT 17.21.
I thought the BT17 was a sports car?
Steve
#27
Rob29
-
- 3,582 posts
- Joined: January 01
Member
Posted 13 November 2008 - 08:53
I dont think Piers ever drove one that colour.I remember Charles Lucas blue & red or Frank Williams very dark blue.Originally posted by John-w
Hello,
can anybody help me to identify this Brabham F3 Heller model kit in scale 1/24th.
Instrucion:
Box:
Photos from the original Piers Courage car are welcome.
John-w
#28
Barry Boor
-
- 11,553 posts
- Joined: October 00
Member
Posted 13 November 2008 - 09:09
SWB, your memory is excellent. They certainly did do a McLaren M.7 - but strangely, chose this one:
It was moulded in orange but I chose to paint it in the Antique Automobiles colours.
Sold it for £5.50 on E**y years ago.
It was moulded in orange but I chose to paint it in the Antique Automobiles colours.
Sold it for £5.50 on E**y years ago.
#29
T54
-
- 2,506 posts
- Joined: November 03
Member
Posted 29 November 2009 - 22:49
I ran into this thread while searching for the Heller model of the DFV powered 1969 F1 model they produced.
Since I am the person who designed ALL these F3, F2 and F1 models for Heller from 1966 through 1971, I should know a bit about them. In fact, I retained the only surviving set of plans and parts distribution still in existence, since all Heller archives were destroyed over the years, a very sad but fitting end the the period documents of a company that barely survives today due to their lack of adaptability to a changing market.
I selected all the models myself and chose the BT15 and the MATRA MS5, then the BT26, M7A and Lotus 49B because... I liked them. There was one more that was never made but of which I also have both original drawings, it was the MATRA MS80 that won the F1 championship with Jackie and the DFV.
The BT15 model was quite sophisticated for its day, featuring the entire tube chassis and suspension on which one could assemble the body panels.
Here is a scan I made of the McLaren M7A print I have saved. It is made from many scans put together because my scanner is only an 8" X 11" and that print is 40" long...
Please realize that this was done in the day with no computer, no factory drawings, simply from pictures kindly supplied by my friend Gerard Crombac of Sport Auto since I had never seen the car... so it was pencil, then India ink and no mistakes. For the period when it was made, I think that the kit came out pretty nice actually.
From this drawing and the pictures, I did a blown 3/4 perspective showing all the parts of the future kit and how they fit into each other, then this went to the pattern maker and mold makers. Unfortunately I no longer have that drawing for this model, but have others for other cars including that of the MS80 as well as of the MS650 that was also never produced for reasons that I have previously explained.
Regards,
T54
Since I am the person who designed ALL these F3, F2 and F1 models for Heller from 1966 through 1971, I should know a bit about them. In fact, I retained the only surviving set of plans and parts distribution still in existence, since all Heller archives were destroyed over the years, a very sad but fitting end the the period documents of a company that barely survives today due to their lack of adaptability to a changing market.
I selected all the models myself and chose the BT15 and the MATRA MS5, then the BT26, M7A and Lotus 49B because... I liked them. There was one more that was never made but of which I also have both original drawings, it was the MATRA MS80 that won the F1 championship with Jackie and the DFV.
The BT15 model was quite sophisticated for its day, featuring the entire tube chassis and suspension on which one could assemble the body panels.
Here is a scan I made of the McLaren M7A print I have saved. It is made from many scans put together because my scanner is only an 8" X 11" and that print is 40" long...
Please realize that this was done in the day with no computer, no factory drawings, simply from pictures kindly supplied by my friend Gerard Crombac of Sport Auto since I had never seen the car... so it was pencil, then India ink and no mistakes. For the period when it was made, I think that the kit came out pretty nice actually.
From this drawing and the pictures, I did a blown 3/4 perspective showing all the parts of the future kit and how they fit into each other, then this went to the pattern maker and mold makers. Unfortunately I no longer have that drawing for this model, but have others for other cars including that of the MS80 as well as of the MS650 that was also never produced for reasons that I have previously explained.
Regards,
T54
Edited by T54, 29 November 2009 - 22:50.
#31
T54
-
- 2,506 posts
- Joined: November 03
Member
Posted 20 December 2009 - 17:29
I have to add that the Heller Brabham BT15 F3 was originally sold with a decal sheet for Chris Irwin, but at one time was re-issued by a Japanese company that either leased or purchased the molds, and made a Tetsu Ikuzawa version of it.
These Heller models were also issued in a collaborative effort by AMT in the USA in 1970:
I have not scanned my original drawings of the BT15 yet but here is a preview:
I have a small scanner and I have to piece the thing from 5 or 6 scans...
Originally the model was supposed to be that of a BT21, but it ended as a BT15 for a reason I do not remember...
It was issued by Heller in 1967.
By the way, the BT17 was an upgraded BT8 using the 3-liter Repco V8 engine. It was not a good car and Jack simply abandoned the project. The car WAS in California in 1989, not sure where it is now.
These Heller models were also issued in a collaborative effort by AMT in the USA in 1970:
I have not scanned my original drawings of the BT15 yet but here is a preview:
I have a small scanner and I have to piece the thing from 5 or 6 scans...
Originally the model was supposed to be that of a BT21, but it ended as a BT15 for a reason I do not remember...
It was issued by Heller in 1967.
By the way, the BT17 was an upgraded BT8 using the 3-liter Repco V8 engine. It was not a good car and Jack simply abandoned the project. The car WAS in California in 1989, not sure where it is now.
Edited by T54, 20 December 2009 - 18:47.
#32
asapiro
-
- 55 posts
- Joined: September 09
Member
Posted 26 February 2010 - 22:55
Well, well, well.
First, a great big thank you for producing two of my favorite open wheel kits - in my favorite scale
Like many other modelers, I buy faster than I build - so I have not yet built these kits - but I've got several of each
The Brabham F III is destined for a conversion. I photographed (every inch) of a Brabham Honda F II at Goodwood FOS
three years ago. I think your kit will be an accurate base for the Brabham Honda with a scratchbuilt engine.
Are there any major chassis or body work differences between the two cars?
thanks again for these great kits ....
First, a great big thank you for producing two of my favorite open wheel kits - in my favorite scale
Like many other modelers, I buy faster than I build - so I have not yet built these kits - but I've got several of each
The Brabham F III is destined for a conversion. I photographed (every inch) of a Brabham Honda F II at Goodwood FOS
three years ago. I think your kit will be an accurate base for the Brabham Honda with a scratchbuilt engine.
Are there any major chassis or body work differences between the two cars?
thanks again for these great kits ....
I have to add that the Heller Brabham BT15 F3 was originally sold with a decal sheet for Chris Irwin, but at one time was re-issued by a Japanese company that either leased or purchased the molds, and made a Tetsu Ikuzawa version of it.
These Heller models were also issued in a collaborative effort by AMT in the USA in 1970:
I have not scanned my original drawings of the BT15 yet but here is a preview:
I have a small scanner and I have to piece the thing from 5 or 6 scans...
Originally the model was supposed to be that of a BT21, but it ended as a BT15 for a reason I do not remember...
It was issued by Heller in 1967.
By the way, the BT17 was an upgraded BT8 using the 3-liter Repco V8 engine. It was not a good car and Jack simply abandoned the project. The car WAS in California in 1989, not sure where it is now.
#33
T54
-
- 2,506 posts
- Joined: November 03
Member
Posted 27 February 2010 - 04:31
I think that the main differences are the top links of the front suspension and two extra pieces of tubing on the frame. Now i cannot remember if the Honda powerplant used a Hewland box, but the Heller kit has a very faithful reproduction of a MKV...
The body panels are the same.
I just gave all my surviving Heller prints and originals to be scanned so that i will have a disk and can clean up the traces of aging and will post the relevant ones as necessary.
Regards,
T54
The body panels are the same.
I just gave all my surviving Heller prints and originals to be scanned so that i will have a disk and can clean up the traces of aging and will post the relevant ones as necessary.
Regards,
T54
#34
asapiro
-
- 55 posts
- Joined: September 09
Member
Posted 27 February 2010 - 19:35
the restored Brabham Honda at the Festival of Speed sported the same Hewland box as in your kits, and yes it is faithfully reproduced in your kits.
I don't have time to drop the pictures into this post, but if you can find my gallery at www.GPMA.org - gallery is ID'd as Sapiro, I have posted about half dozen of the Brabham Honda shots from the Festival.
if you are not familiar with the GPMA site, you ought to consider joining and introducing yourself - I think you would receive a hero's welcome ......
too bad Heller did not produce an F1 Matra - either the Cosworth or the 12 cyl - would very much like to see your drawings of those.
I'm in the midst of a Lotus 49 build - as Clark's winning debutant - using the Heller engine with some mods and a scratchbuilt body.
I took the trouble to offset the Cosworth Ford cylinder heads and adding a not quite scratchbuilt trans and accessories.
I'll have something to post later in the Spring
You didn't do any BT 7 or 11 drawings, did you ?????
I think that the main differences are the top links of the front suspension and two extra pieces of tubing on the frame. Now i cannot remember if the Honda powerplant used a Hewland box, but the Heller kit has a very faithful reproduction of a MKV...
The body panels are the same.
I just gave all my surviving Heller prints and originals to be scanned so that i will have a disk and can clean up the traces of aging and will post the relevant ones as necessary.
Regards,
T54
#35
Macca
-
- 3,749 posts
- Joined: January 03
Member
Posted 02 March 2010 - 19:04
You didn't do any BT 7 or 11 drawings, did you ?????
I've never seen a 3-view of either - that doesn't mean there aren't any. R&T and C&D used to do drawings of F1s in the 1960s and there might be some Brabhams there; the site that has all the Model car and Model Auto drawings doesn't show any of BT7 or 11. However, there were cutaways which can be seen on that thread and here:
http://img362.images...n65brabham.jpg/
http://img690.images...abham1963f.jpg/
Paul M
#36
T54
-
- 2,506 posts
- Joined: November 03
Member
Posted 03 March 2010 - 02:52
Well, after a short what, 45 years, I eventually had the surviving, painfully hand drawn prints finished in India ink, scanned and converted into workable files. Viva la technology!
So here is the original 3-view drawing of the BT15/17/21, and the original cutaway view for the kit parts. Note that the kit ended with a fully detailed chassis after we decided to give it a full go!
The reason why the 1-liter F3 engine is not shown is because it used the same mold as that of the MATRA MS5 F2, so there was no need.
I will post the prints as I clean them up from smudges and stains accumulated over time.
This comes right in time because there is a new book written by JC Carbonnel on the story of the Heller company (unfortunately only in French), and several of these will be in the book.
Regards,
T54
So here is the original 3-view drawing of the BT15/17/21, and the original cutaway view for the kit parts. Note that the kit ended with a fully detailed chassis after we decided to give it a full go!
The reason why the 1-liter F3 engine is not shown is because it used the same mold as that of the MATRA MS5 F2, so there was no need.
I will post the prints as I clean them up from smudges and stains accumulated over time.
This comes right in time because there is a new book written by JC Carbonnel on the story of the Heller company (unfortunately only in French), and several of these will be in the book.
Regards,
T54
#37
asapiro
-
- 55 posts
- Joined: September 09
Member
Posted 03 March 2010 - 22:47
thanks for taking the trouble to clean up and post your drawings.
where do you believe the extra frame member is located for the Brabham Honda ?
these drawings, in profile, are very similar to the BT 3. But dis-similar from above.
These cars were smaller - without bulging flanks - perhaps because they required less fuel than the
grand prix cars?
Did you help develope any of the masters, or were you just responsible for the drawings?
thanks again - most interesting ......
It's a shame that we did not get some more Matras from Heller.....
where do you believe the extra frame member is located for the Brabham Honda ?
these drawings, in profile, are very similar to the BT 3. But dis-similar from above.
These cars were smaller - without bulging flanks - perhaps because they required less fuel than the
grand prix cars?
Did you help develope any of the masters, or were you just responsible for the drawings?
thanks again - most interesting ......
It's a shame that we did not get some more Matras from Heller.....
Well, after a short what, 45 years, I eventually had the surviving, painfully hand drawn prints finished in India ink, scanned and converted into workable files. Viva la technology!
So here is the original 3-view drawing of the BT15/17/21, and the original cutaway view for the kit parts. Note that the kit ended with a fully detailed chassis after we decided to give it a full go!
The reason why the 1-liter F3 engine is not shown is because it used the same mold as that of the MATRA MS5 F2, so there was no need.
I will post the prints as I clean them up from smudges and stains accumulated over time.
This comes right in time because there is a new book written by JC Carbonnel on the story of the Heller company (unfortunately only in French), and several of these will be in the book.
Regards,
T54
#38
T54
-
- 2,506 posts
- Joined: November 03
Member
Posted 04 March 2010 - 19:47
I do not remember where the extra tubing was, sorry! I know that it was there... as well as longer top links for the front suspension.
The BT3 being an F1 car, was "fatter" than the F3 and F3 that followed. The size on my print is accurate and taken right off the real car.
I was only responsible for the drawings, and at times I regret it because in at least two cases, the pattern makers at Heller royally screwed their roof lines compared to my original profile (Ferrari 330P4 and 512M).
I was able to do some cleanup on the MATRA MS5 'blown up" view. If you have the kit, you can compare it with this, that was done well before any part or pattern was produced:
Yes, there are some differences, but the MS5 kit came out quite well in my opinion, again establishing a few "first" in fine details and accuracy.
it is indeed a shame that the other two MATRA (MS80 and 650) were never produced. I will publish the drawings here soon. The MS650 promised to be the greatest 1/24 scale kit ever produced at the time, maybe even today, over 40 years later, once you check the requested detailing...
T54
The BT3 being an F1 car, was "fatter" than the F3 and F3 that followed. The size on my print is accurate and taken right off the real car.
I was only responsible for the drawings, and at times I regret it because in at least two cases, the pattern makers at Heller royally screwed their roof lines compared to my original profile (Ferrari 330P4 and 512M).
I was able to do some cleanup on the MATRA MS5 'blown up" view. If you have the kit, you can compare it with this, that was done well before any part or pattern was produced:
Yes, there are some differences, but the MS5 kit came out quite well in my opinion, again establishing a few "first" in fine details and accuracy.
it is indeed a shame that the other two MATRA (MS80 and 650) were never produced. I will publish the drawings here soon. The MS650 promised to be the greatest 1/24 scale kit ever produced at the time, maybe even today, over 40 years later, once you check the requested detailing...
T54
#39
asapiro
-
- 55 posts
- Joined: September 09
Member
Posted 04 March 2010 - 22:51
thanks for posting this
One thing that Heller, and you, deserve credit for is the level of fine detail.
Rivets were represented as, rivets!
The cad cam designed kits done by Model Factory Hiro, while featuring fantastic detail, have dimples instead of rivets.
Drives me crazy ......
I'm checking my Matra kit tonite - I think Heller left a couple of these parts off!
One thing that Heller, and you, deserve credit for is the level of fine detail.
Rivets were represented as, rivets!
The cad cam designed kits done by Model Factory Hiro, while featuring fantastic detail, have dimples instead of rivets.
Drives me crazy ......
I'm checking my Matra kit tonite - I think Heller left a couple of these parts off!
I do not remember where the extra tubing was, sorry! I know that it was there... as well as longer top links for the front suspension.
The BT3 being an F1 car, was "fatter" than the F3 and F3 that followed. The size on my print is accurate and taken right off the real car.
I was only responsible for the drawings, and at times I regret it because in at least two cases, the pattern makers at Heller royally screwed their roof lines compared to my original profile (Ferrari 330P4 and 512M).
I was able to do some cleanup on the MATRA MS5 'blown up" view. If you have the kit, you can compare it with this, that was done well before any part or pattern was produced:
Yes, there are some differences, but the MS5 kit came out quite well in my opinion, again establishing a few "first" in fine details and accuracy.
it is indeed a shame that the other two MATRA (MS80 and 650) were never produced. I will publish the drawings here soon. The MS650 promised to be the greatest 1/24 scale kit ever produced at the time, maybe even today, over 40 years later, once you check the requested detailing...
T54
Advertisement
#40
T54
-
- 2,506 posts
- Joined: November 03
Member
Posted 12 March 2010 - 01:56
I have found pictures of one of these little Brabham kits that I assembled at the Heller R&D office when it came out:
And the famous tube chassis in authentic plastic!
Now it is 43 years later and I can't see well enough to put one of these things together!
And the famous tube chassis in authentic plastic!
Now it is 43 years later and I can't see well enough to put one of these things together!
#41
asapiro
-
- 55 posts
- Joined: September 09
Member
Posted 06 April 2010 - 14:23
I'm posting a link to photo coverage of a French vintage event on GT Dreams' site
I'm not familiar with the track or the event - but it looked to be quite special
On this page and the following are photos of the 3 different F2 and 3 Matras, including the MS5 ....
the MS7 appears to be a formula 2 car with a Lotus twin cam - which would make an interesting kit conversion
And the F3 car appears to have the cosworth engine kitted in the Brabham kit ....
here it is :
http://www.gtdreams....p...ge=2&part=3
I'm not familiar with the track or the event - but it looked to be quite special
On this page and the following are photos of the 3 different F2 and 3 Matras, including the MS5 ....
the MS7 appears to be a formula 2 car with a Lotus twin cam - which would make an interesting kit conversion
And the F3 car appears to have the cosworth engine kitted in the Brabham kit ....
here it is :
http://www.gtdreams....p...ge=2&part=3
thanks for posting this
One thing that Heller, and you, deserve credit for is the level of fine detail.
Rivets were represented as, rivets!
The cad cam designed kits done by Model Factory Hiro, while featuring fantastic detail, have dimples instead of rivets.
Drives me crazy ......
I'm checking my Matra kit tonite - I think Heller left a couple of these parts off!
#42
T54
-
- 2,506 posts
- Joined: November 03
Member
Posted 06 April 2010 - 18:05
Pictures taken at the Circuit des Remparts in Angouleme. Lots of MATRAs there, but if you see ANY with a twin-cam, that would be quite bizarre because I do not believe that any ever ran that engine in the day, and in ANY case, NEVER a Hewland HD5 as I see on one car... The F3 and F2s were all powered by one-liter single-cam Cosworth engines.
I have now scanned all my Heller drawings, and here is the MS80 3-view, a model that was never issued, as well as the "blown" design for the MS5 (with Cosworth SCA):
I hope that this will allow you to create an MS80 that was never modeled in the day, a sad fact.
I have now scanned all my Heller drawings, and here is the MS80 3-view, a model that was never issued, as well as the "blown" design for the MS5 (with Cosworth SCA):
I hope that this will allow you to create an MS80 that was never modeled in the day, a sad fact.
Edited by T54, 06 April 2010 - 18:07.
#43
asapiro
-
- 55 posts
- Joined: September 09
Member
Posted 06 April 2010 - 21:31
the MS 80 would be a challenging scratchbuild. I'm tackling the Lotus 49 first.
It's a simpler design/build. Thanks for the posting. Excellent work ....
My knowledge of the "lesser formulae" is poor.
Did F3 call for carburated engines, and F2 permit fuel injection?
Is that why the fuel injected Brabham Honda that I saw at Goodwood was an F2 car ?
One of the Matras shown at the Angouleme event has fuel injection poking out of the right side of the cyl head.
Did the cyl head design permit more than one type of installation?
It's a simpler design/build. Thanks for the posting. Excellent work ....
My knowledge of the "lesser formulae" is poor.
Did F3 call for carburated engines, and F2 permit fuel injection?
Is that why the fuel injected Brabham Honda that I saw at Goodwood was an F2 car ?
One of the Matras shown at the Angouleme event has fuel injection poking out of the right side of the cyl head.
Did the cyl head design permit more than one type of installation?
Pictures taken at the Circuit des Remparts in Angouleme. Lots of MATRAs there, but if you see ANY with a twin-cam, that would be quite bizarre because I do not believe that any ever ran that engine in the day, and in ANY case, NEVER a Hewland HD5 as I see on one car... The F3 and F2s were all powered by one-liter single-cam Cosworth engines.
I have now scanned all my Heller drawings, and here is the MS80 3-view, a model that was never issued, as well as the "blown" design for the MS5 (with Cosworth SCA):
I hope that this will allow you to create an MS80 that was never modeled in the day, a sad fact.
#44
asapiro
-
- 55 posts
- Joined: September 09
Member
Posted 06 April 2010 - 22:34
www.Gurneyflap.com
has very good photos of a restored BT 15 and the Matra MS80 ...
has very good photos of a restored BT 15 and the Matra MS80 ...
the MS 80 would be a challenging scratchbuild. I'm tackling the Lotus 49 first.
It's a simpler design/build. Thanks for the posting. Excellent work ....
My knowledge of the "lesser formulae" is poor.
Did F3 call for carburated engines, and F2 permit fuel injection?
Is that why the fuel injected Brabham Honda that I saw at Goodwood was an F2 car ?
One of the Matras shown at the Angouleme event has fuel injection poking out of the right side of the cyl head.
Did the cyl head design permit more than one type of installation?
#45
T54
-
- 2,506 posts
- Joined: November 03
Member
Posted 07 April 2010 - 22:13
I think that the Matra F3 ran the Lucas vertical carb in F3 and standard injected SCA engines in F2. The F3 racing at that time was dominated by two induction systems, the Lucas (not from "that" Lucas but from Charles Lucas if I recall correctly) and the Novamotor from Italy. Both had a vertical manifold with a Weber carb on top of it and one of the bores blanked.My knowledge of the "lesser formulae" is poor.
Did F3 call for carburated engines, and F2 permit fuel injection?
Is that why the fuel injected Brabham Honda that I saw at Goodwood was an F2 car ?
One of the Matras shown at the Angouleme event has fuel injection poking out of the right side of the cyl head.
Did the cyl head design permit more than one type of installation?
For your "49", please see below some of the drawings I did for the Heller "49B" kit in case some details may help you:
Regards,
T54
#46
asapiro
-
- 55 posts
- Joined: September 09
Member
Posted 08 April 2010 - 20:32
I do have the Heller kit. x 2
I am scratchbuilding a monocoque with renshape - with cooling and oil line cutouts -
and making the suspension parts and various accessories to end up with the Zandfort winner.
I'm using some of the kit bulkheads - modified - and bits and peices of the engine -
but I offset the cyl heads - and I created a ZF box with the lucas spark and fuse boxes on top.
I created a scuttle hatch that is oblong shaped, rather than the original - which was round
so now I am contemplating a fix - which will be difficult - or leaving it be .....
As you know, the 49 had multiple lives.
So the the first winner - (R2?) - can also be modeled in it's current 49B guise - as owned by Lovely -
and you have a completely different race car - but with the same chassis !
I think that the Matra F3 ran the Lucas vertical carb in F3 and standard injected SCA engines in F2. The F3 racing at that time was dominated by two induction systems, the Lucas (not from "that" Lucas but from Charles Lucas if I recall correctly) and the Novamotor from Italy. Both had a vertical manifold with a Weber carb on top of it and one of the bores blanked.
For your "49", please see below some of the drawings I did for the Heller "49B" kit in case some details may help you:
Regards,
T54
