235 replies to this topic

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Vegetableman
Why has no one elseo considered that Heikki might have been told there was traffic coming, looked in his mirrors and seen the Williams, assumed it was the traffic and thats why he slowed down? You can't exactly positively identify a car looking in the mirror.
Every time I see anything that could be considered a minor infraction by a McLaren that reason would suggest should not be punished it seems to happen. McLaren aren't the only team that make mistakes but generally speaking they are the only ones punished.

It does not matter what he thought, it matters that he impeded Webber.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Too bad the FIA don't hold their President to the same high standard as they do their drivers.

They do.

Max did not brake any FIA, local or international rules or regulations.

He should still have stepped down by his own accord, but he did not do anything he was not allowed to do in London.

[Vegetableman]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


It does not matter what he thought, it matters that he impeded Webber.

....
...

They do.

Max did not brake any FIA, local or international rules or regulations.

He should still have stepped down by his own accord, but he did not do anything he was not allowed to do in London.

I thought the rule said the driver had to be deliberately blocking (ie being aware of it) or was it changed?

And on the second point you would be incorrect. More than anyone else has ever done he bought the sport into disrepute. Even in my country which doesn't give two shits about F1 the story was in the front pages of the sports section.

[F575 GTC]

Originally posted by Vegetableman


I thought the rule said the driver had to be deliberately blocking (ie being aware of it) or was it changed?

I thought it was changed as both McLaren drivers didn't deliberatly impede Heidfeld & Alonso earlier in the season. I'm guessing the ruling is any driver caught on a slow-down lap - or driving slowly - on the racing line or in a way that would block another driver. I could be wrong though, i'm sure somebody on here knows it exactly!

[rodlamas]

Originally posted by Only Massa


Yet, it broke clear and written rules. So it was right to punish him, just as it was right (and had no effect, too) punishing Raikkonen because his team was late in fixing his wheels on the grid

What's the point in discussing, with paranoid and arrogant tones, an episode which is simply not debatable?

There's a clear rule, with precise timings. That rule has been broken by a car under normal circumstances and a punishment has been issued.

It's not a matter of fair vs unfair. There are no gray areas on this matter: he was caught slowing too much (and blocking a driver, as a consequence) in an area where he was not meant to. There's no judgement, only real facts, which are hardly debatable.

I see all the reasons why Kova had to be punished, even if it's clear that he did not give a damn about intentionally blocking Webber and he is a correct and fair driver.
And in the rules I see no reason why he sould not have been punished. Not a single one.

And, frankly, you did not provide one. So, except for the usual fanboy paranoia, what is your contribution to the discussion?

I won't lose my time and speech with somebody that has a signature like yours.

But the point is that Raikkonen didn't mean to push Sato of the road at Monza qual 2002, but still lost his fastest lap.

Montoya didn't mean to push Barrichello out of the road at Indy 2003 but was still punished.

Raikkonen totals Sutil's race (even that it was not on purpose) and wasnt punished.

[mclarensmps]

Originally posted by Alfisti
Amazing, just mind blowing. Have you actually seen the coverage? You could see HK WAY into the distance and Webber caught him in like 2 corners.

Quoting myself in your quote:

There is no rule governing how fast you "should" drive different sections of the track, and there shouldn't be.

[F575 GTC]

Originally posted by rodlamas


I won't lose my time and speech with somebody that has a signature like yours.

But the point is that Raikkonen didn't mean to push Sato of the road at Monza qual 2002, but still lost his fastest lap.

Montoya didn't mean to push Barrichello out of the road at Indy 2003 but was still punished.

Raikkonen totals Sutil's race (even that it was not on purpose) and wasnt punished.

The thing with these incidents is that they are all very differant to what happened at Monaco. Montoya at Indy was a very optimistic move on the outside of a corner; and likewise with Raikkonen at Monza the incident was just weird - Sato for trying to go down a gap that wasn't really there and Raikkonen pulling over for the chicane and not even noticing that Takuma was next to him. The reason that these incidents seem to have been punished - and the ones you mentioned earlier - are that the driver was in full control the car and they where all really silly in one way or another, all really could have been avoided.

At Monaco Kimi was just a passenger after he lost control - it could have happened to any of the drivers at any time during the race, it was just very unfortunate that when it did happen it caught Sutil. Yes it was a shame that this happened but it certainly wasn't worth of punishment. Rosberg's accident for example would have been the same had he hit somebody after smacking the wall, likewise when Coulthard did exactly the same as Kimi did, if he'd have hit somebody too it wouldn't have been worthy of a penalty.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by rodlamas


I won't lose my time and speech with somebody that has a signature like yours.

But the point is that Raikkonen didn't mean to push Sato of the road at Monza qual 2002, but still lost his fastest lap.

Montoya didn't mean to push Barrichello out of the road at Indy 2003 but was still punished.

Raikkonen totals Sutil's race (even that it was not on purpose) and wasnt punished.

Keep learning maybe you will once understand.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by F575 GTC
... likewise when Coulthard did exactly the same as Kimi did, if he'd have hit somebody too it wouldn't have been worthy of a penalty.

With Kimi, the only reason he over pushed his car at Monaco was because there was someone there. His intention was clearly to overtake Sutil. Kimi was punished though, because Kimi too lost points. Webber was behind, he commented that Kimi's car clearly had cold tyres. Its known too that the Ferrari takes more time to warm up its tyres. Maybe Kimi just did not want to get beaten by a crap car and a normally back of the field driver? I don't believe Kimi would have driven like that if for instance Hamilton had of been in front of him instead of Sutil's Force India.

The unfairness was that Sutil who has gained just one point I think in his back of the grid career, lost an almost certain historic feat at the most prestigious European GP of Monaco all achieved in a totally **** car. So too did the Indian nation miss out on its Indian team achieving a high placing at Monaco. To KR though, it was just a racing incident, no big deal.

We saw Alonso crash into Nic Heidfeld at Monaco too, in another crazy move. Both incidents were classified as racing incidents, but the reality is that both so called top drivers were incompetent and got away with it without any criticism whatsoever.

[Alfisti]

Originally posted by pingu666
i think its pretty harsh tbh, heikki would haveto drive off the circuit to get more out of the way, which possible there but would really compromise him, and be very tight getting back on track

How about just speeding up? Why was he going so slow to begin with?

[JonC]

Does anyone else remember Kimi savagely blocking Kubica in Q1 in Melbourne this year? He received no penalty whatsoever as it did not affect the outcome - Kubica made the cut anyway so wasn't penalised by it. How is that any different to today's scenario - Webber didn't miss the cut so why was Kovalainen's driving worthy of penalty and Kimi's in Melbourne was not?

[kamix]

McLaren have done this the whole season ... when their drivers aren't on hotlaps they crawl around the circuit blocking everyone else. Malaysia was just ridiculous ... you'd think they'd have learned already.

[BMW_F1]

If I am not mistaken Pizzonia lost his car on the rain once and took out Montoya in Spa. He was fined and penalized . The FIA has never been consistent with their penalties.. How about the drive through penalty they gave JPM in Malaysia after Michael oversteered into his car in the first corner?

[primer]

That evil wretch Felipe Massa!

I am *shocked* he hasn't been penalized. You can clearly see that his Ferrari was travelling very slowly and forced Bourdais to take the optimal line into the corner.

There's no justice in this world. I do not want to live anymore.

[the ringmaster]

This is all a load of rubbish...for most of you it is not about should he have been penalised...for most of you it is posturing and declaring your colours...McLaren vs Ferrari...I say the whole qualifying format is at fault...maybe a top ten shoot out similar to the way the V8 Supercars run, would remove all the conjecture...as for wishing people to have accidents...I think that is a shocking thing to say...what kind of race fan would wish that on anybody...

[Nitropower]

Originally posted by BMW_F1
If I am not mistaken Pizzonia lost his car on the rain once and took out Montoya in Spa. He was fined and penalized . The FIA has never been consistent with their penalties.. How about the drive through penalty they gave JPM in Malaysia after Michael oversteered into his car in the first corner?

That was a big big shame, infamous. The stewards have taken some decisions in recent years at least difficult to understand. Rules should be detailed and improved so it's not a "today I feel like a 5 grid penalty" or "how about deleting his bist 2 times? what if it's 3?" Okay it seems that lately their decisions are not as stupid and unfair as the used to be, I heard they changed many stewards.

[GerardF1]

Pathetic

Mclaren might as well change their main sponsor to Target stores ... They have one on the car anyway might as well be there for everyone to see.

Gerard

[Anomnader]

Originally posted by kamix
McLaren have done this the whole season ... when their drivers aren't on hotlaps they crawl around the circuit blocking everyone else. Malaysia was just ridiculous ... you'd think they'd have learned already.

NO, other teams do it, they just arn't punished, as with Massa and Nakajima today, its total bullshit.

[Melbourne Park]

I think a list of penalties for blocking might remove some of the emotion.

There are two separate issues here too - one being the topic, how justified was Kova's penalty? I suspect he was guilty, although I think 5 places is not only severe, but such penalties often don't assist the competitor who was damaged.

And secondly, how professional has been the application of the rule to other competitors?

[rodlamas]

Originally posted by Anomnader


NO, other teams do it, they just arn't punished, as with Massa and Nakajima today, its total bullshit.

That's what exactly what I mean.

1- If you're on a Ferrari, you will never be punished.
2- If you're on a Mclaren, you will always be punished.
3- If you're on another car, you might/might not be punished.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Vegetableman


I thought the rule said the driver had to be deliberately blocking (ie being aware of it) or was it changed? - Just about impeding.

And on the second point you would be incorrect. More than anyone else has ever done he bought the sport into disrepute. Even in my country which doesn't give two shits about F1 the story was in the front pages of the sports section.You are mistaken, any one living or visiting London and of legal age are allowed to enter into an arrangement like the one Max engaged in. Doing so may not meet every ones moral standards or ethics, and may not be what we want our elected officials to do.

It is however a private matter, which was not done as illicit endeavour, and the FIA representatives unfortunately had to vote as they did.

As I wrote I think he should have stepped down on his initiative, he has however not brought the sport in disrepute. He may have soiled he personal repute, but not the sports.

[kamix]

Originally posted by Anomnader


NO, other teams do it, they just arn't punished, as with Massa and Nakajima today, its total bullshit.

I didn't get to see quali so have no input on what everyone else did.

But it is fact that McLaren have already been penalised for this. They should have been fully aware of what is and isn't acceptable. Like I said before, it was just stunningly arrogant what they did in Malaysia. There was still a minute or so left in the session, but after banking their hotlaps they just throttled off and blocked the whole lap for everyone else, to save what a 1/4 a lap of fuel? Then when they were penalised they acted as if they didn't realise other people would be trying to compete with them ... there are obviously serious issues here at McLaren and I think they need to look at them asap instead of letting this happen again this season.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
With Kimi, the only reason he over pushed his car at Monaco was because there was someone there. His intention was clearly to overtake Sutil. Kimi was punished though, because Kimi too lost points. Webber was behind, he commented that Kimi's car clearly had cold tyres. Its known too that the Ferrari takes more time to warm up its tyres. Maybe Kimi just did not want to get beaten by a crap car and a normally back of the field driver? I don't believe Kimi would have driven like that if for instance Hamilton had of been in front of him instead of Sutil's Force India.

The unfairness was that Sutil who has gained just one point I think in his back of the grid career, lost an almost certain historic feat at the most prestigious European GP of Monaco all achieved in a totally **** car. So too did the Indian nation miss out on its Indian team achieving a high placing at Monaco. To KR though, it was just a racing incident, no big deal.

We saw Alonso crash into Nic Heidfeld at Monaco too, in another crazy move. Both incidents were classified as racing incidents, but the reality is that both so called top drivers were incompetent and got away with it without any criticism whatsoever.

We are still critiqueing it 3 races later, how can that be none at all??

Problem is he made a legal boneheaded move.

Which is different from an illegal boneheaded move.

There fore the difference in penalties issued, and no penalty issued.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


We are still critiqueing it 3 races later, how can that be none at all??

Problem is he made a legal boneheaded move.

Which is different from an illegal boneheaded move.

There fore the difference in penalties issued, and no penalty issued.

We don't exist though - we are just Net Noise.

I do wonder though, what if at Monaco the car in front of Kovalainen had of been Kimi's, and Kova had of taken out Kimi. Would the decision have been the same? I suspect not. Hence the talk about Montoya being punished with a stop go when the WDC was still very possible for him.

For years DC said it was an unfortunate accident when he was going slowly in the wet at Spa when Schumacher ran into the back of him, destroying his WDC campaign. But DC eventually admitted that it was planned afterall. That was another so called "legal" incident, that likely cost Schumacher a WDC.

There are lots of things which are ignored, and even when things are not ignored wrong decisions IMO are made. For instance, Hamilton being let off in Fuji last year.

It comes down overall to the professionalism of the governance, which is sadly lacking IMO. Its all exacerbated by the difficulty of overtaking as well, where grid penalties have a much greater effect than they once did. And a grid penalty at one track has a different level of punishment compared to another track, as overtaking ability varies between tracks.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Bottom line is, time to come to their senses and revamp the quali system.

[ClubmanGT]

Jeepers. Are people still calling Kimi's accident in Monte Carlo a 'move' on Sutil?

Kimi was on the racing line when he spun. On it. He wasn't diving down the inside. It's also worth noting that Sutil was well wide when Kimi hit him, so he was watching his mirrors instead of driving his own race.



Regards France, I think that there were a few cars that should have been penalized - it seemed Hekkei did more than could be expected to get out of the way, and all that was stopping him diving inside Kovi was the Williams. Pretty unfair tbh.

[Nobody]

Originally posted by pingu666






he pulled 5G under braking for the hairpin btw

Is Massa on the racing line there? Shouldn't he be on the inside? I dunno.

Anyway he is crawling around.

I'll do some maths here, looking at the time on Bourdais' lap, in 1.3 sec he reeled in Massa from about 30m behind. If 1m/s equals 3.6km/h, there is roughly 110km/h difference in speed between them - on the fastest part of the circuit.

:

Was Bourdais impeded, maybe not, but isn't this a bit dangerous?

[mursuka80]

Originally posted by Nobody


Is Massa on the racing line there? Shouldn't he be on the inside? I dunno.

Anyway he is crawling around.

I'll do some maths here, looking at the time on Bourdais' lap, in 1.3 sec he reeled in Massa from about 30m behind. If 1m/s equals 3.6km/h, there is roughly 110km/h difference in speed between them - on the fastest part of the circuit.

:

Was Bourdais impeded, maybe not, but isn't this a bit dangerous?

As all can see bourdais didnt have to lift,so those who are screaming penalty to Massa

[Blueray]

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
Bottom line is, time to come to their senses and revamp the quali system.

Ye for the 50th time, how smart. How about we just change the stupid rule so that only deliberate blocking is penalized, the same way its been for decades previously. This new rule trying to force the track clear for everyone is stupid. Its always been a skill to find a gap in qual, so let the drivers do some god damn work. Too many rules and regulations are strangling the sport.

[Henrik B]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
With Kimi, the only reason he over pushed his car at Monaco was because there was someone there. His intention was clearly to overtake Sutil.

But that is just nonsense, which make the rest of your argument falling flat on it's face. Kimi was nowhere near Sutil, he wasn't planning a pass there. I think he said so himself also, but it's evident just watching the incident. He lost it in the same manner as Coulthard did the day before, and it just was very unfortunate that Sutil was there.

[Slatz]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


For years DC said it was an unfortunate accident when he was going slowly in the wet at Spa when Schumacher ran into the back of him, destroying his WDC campaign. But DC eventually admitted that it was planned afterall. That was another so called "legal" incident, that likely cost Schumacher a WDC.

Not wishing to get off topic here but i don;t ever remember the word "planned" being used by DC. I remember he took responsibility for the accident - was it last year? - saying he should have taken more action to get out of the way, but that's totally different to being planned.

[Schumeister]

Originally posted by rodlamas


That's what exactly what I mean.

1- If you're on a Ferrari, you will never be punished.
2- If you're on a Mclaren, you will always be punished.
3- If you're on another car, you might/might not be punished.

rodlamas,

If you feel this is the way F1 is governed then why do you continue to watch and take part in discussions.
It strikes me as very odd that you get involved at all, as judging by your quotes above you already know the outcome of every championship decission.

[GiancarloF1]

Originally posted by rodlamas


That's what exactly what I mean.

1- If you're on a Ferrari, you will never be punished.
2- If you're on a Mclaren, you will always be punished.
3- If you're on another car, you might/might not be punished.

Not really. Massa had two punishments last year, Schumacher had a ridiculous penalty in 2006 and so on.

But it's really strange that Raikkonen gets all the advantages of the others' penalties, especially since he joined Ferrari.

[Anomnader]

Originally posted by kamix



There was still a minute or so left in the session, but after banking their hotlaps they just throttled off and blocked the whole lap for everyone else, to save what a 1/4 a lap of fuel? Then when they were penalised they acted as if they didn't realise other people would be trying to compete with them ... there are obviously serious issues here at McLaren and I think they need to look at them asap instead of letting this happen again this season.

Sorry but thats all total crap, there was plenty of others going slow on that same lap it was just unfortunate where the mclarens were met on the track, if it had being on a striaght as with other drivers there would have being no problem.

As to serious issues, what the hell are you onabout.

[Anomnader]

Originally posted by GiancarloF1


Not really. Massa had two punishments last year, Schumacher had a ridiculous penalty in 2006 and so on.

But it's really strange that Raikkonen gets all the advantages of the others' penalties, especially since he joined Ferrari.

Which was Schumachers ridiculous penalty in 2006? You mean monaco?

[Only Massa]

Originally posted by rodlamas


I won't lose my time and speech with somebody that has a signature like yours.

But the point is that Raikkonen didn't mean to push Sato of the road at Monza qual 2002, but still lost his fastest lap.

Montoya didn't mean to push Barrichello out of the road at Indy 2003 but was still punished.

Raikkonen totals Sutil's race (even that it was not on purpose) and wasnt punished.

You keep comparing episodes from 5 or 6 years ago that have nothing in common with this case.

And in the meantime the anti-blocking rule has been changed and a more strong approach has been adopted by the steward: understand this and learn how to respect a sport and its rules.

Your paranoid whining, considering the team you support, is simply humiliating. Even other diehard McLaren fans asked you to grow up. Do it, please.