89 replies to this topic

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

Does any one know when the Rule for "International Racing Colours" started and why? and when did it Stop! I guess with the Lotus 49...?
eg:
COUNTRY.----Belgium---Egypt-----Germany--Argentina--Portugal
____________________________________________________________
Body:--------Yellow----P.Violet---Aluminium--Blue--------Red
Chassis
&Wheels:-----Yellow----P.Violet---Aluminium--Blue--------Red
Number Disc:--none-----White-----none-------White------none
Number:------Black------Red-----Red---------Red--------White
Stripe:-------none-----none------none-------Black------White
Bonnet:------Yellow----P.Violet---Aluminium--Yellow------Red

The list I have shows 31 Countries taking part in this scheme..(Interesting Canada or Australia is not shown, and I'm sure a few others)
I would like to see a Maserati 250F painted in Egypts colours...

Note; Older outside-frame cars had frame painted; newer cars have the option of coloured nose band or lower body of colour.
This table is based on, and enlarged from, a table orginially prepared by: C.J. Ulrich Co. Inc. of North Hollywood, CA.
c.1965

COUNTRY___________________________________________________
ARGENTINA-----------MONACO
AUSTRIA-------------POLAND
BELGIUM-------------PORTUGAL
BRAZIL---------------ROUMANANIA
CHILE----------------SIAM
CZECHOSLOVAKIA------SOUTH AFRICA
EGYPT---------------SPAIN
ESTONIA-------------SWEDEN
FINLAND-------------SWITZERLAND
GERMANY------------UNITED STATES
GT.BRITIAN----------NEW ZELAND
HOLLAND
IRELAND

[Felix Muelas]

Peter,

On behalf of Racer.Demon, can I suggest you might check this: http://www.racer.dem...ear/colors.html

This might be the start of a fascinating thread, so let´s start agreeing on basics...

;-)
Felix

(I will come back with "variations" on the colour theme, as the ones applied by the Penya Rhin on the twenties...)

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

What are the basics ? And what about the question? Why did they start this system , and when did it Stop?

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by MOTORSPORT RESORT
Does any one know when the Rule for "International Racing Colours" started and why?

Oops, Peter, sorry for missing THE answer !
:-)

I have always understood that the "Rule" started in the French Grand Prix 1907, when the national colours became compulsory, as dictated by the Automobile Club de France.

The reason behind it ?
You make your own guesses, but take into account that no less than 12 French makes (*) were on the entry list, and that the winner of the previous year was painted in red, if nothing else...

:-)
Felix Muelas

(*) Clement-Bayard (3 cars), Brasier (3 cars), Corre (1 car), Darracq (3 cars), Marchand (1 car), Germain (3 cars), Gobron-Brillie (1 car), Lorraine-Dietrich (3 cars), Motobloc (3 cars), Panhard (3 cars), Porthos (1 car) and Renault (3 cars), leaving 1 Aquila -that did not arrive-, 1 Christie, 3 Fiats, 3 Mercedes and 2 Waigels as the "foreign" opposition...unluckily for the French, Nazzaro was driving for Fiat...


As for "When did it stop?" I will like to hear some other people's views. Or maybe, if you allow me to rephrase the question, when dis the rule became "flexible", I mean not compulsory?

Felix

[Michael M]

Understand the national racing colours had been part of the rules of the Gordon Bennett Cup or "International Trophy" correctly named.

[Falcadore]

Of course Australia participated! The Brabhams of the 60's were coloured dark green with a gold stripe running Lotus like down the chassis. Green and gold are the national sporting colours of Australia, as I'm sure anyone whose been watching the Olympics will surely be sick of. Fourth place in the medal tally for a nation of 19 million! Damn

[/Burst of outrageous patriotism]

Jonesy

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

Falcadore; We all know Australia was part of the International Racing scene, I'm only quoting the printed information supplied to me, (again never beleave what you Read!)

That's a interesting note; I wonder how many countries this list by C.J. Ulrich Co. Ltd. missed? This company suplied the paint chart for the ruling in 1965.

Note: I use the word "ruling" I'm not even sure it was a ruling or "optional" for the teams?
Can anyone shed light on this?
...Peter

[Ray Bell]

I would say that it was 'compulsory' for entries in the race mentioned, the 1907 French GP... though I would have thought the Gordon Bennett races would have been more nationalistic in their outlook and thus a more logical starting point.
From then, I guess traditions took hold, only to be overturned like so many more in the late sixties.
But look... Caracciola with German colours on the Alfa! There were breaks with the traditions, too..

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

When it come to colours: Germany was orginally White; but when they had to weigh the car it had too much fat, (perhaps the beer) so they striped the paint (2kilo) and raced it in Aluminum...hence "the Silver Arrows". I also know the story about BRG Green, does anyone else ??
and what about: "arrest-me-red?"

[rainern]

The national colours was determined at the Gordon-Bennett race of 1900.
Yellow for Belgium
Blue for France
White for Germany
Red for USA (yes they actually raced with red initially,starting at the 1903 event)
Later of course the red colour went to Italy.
The Germans adopted a slight change to silver.
The US colours was changed to blue and white.
So how about the British Racing Green?
Also from the 1900 Gordon-Bennett races...
British driver Charles Jarrot was unlucky to receive the number 13 on his vehicle so out of compassion he was
awarded the "lucky" green colour to make up for the dreaded 13...

Rainer

[Wolf]

MOTORSPORT, could you share the BRG story with us (with me at least, since I'm ignorant on that matter and would like to know more)?

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

Wolf; Ok. the BRG (British Racing Green) was started by the "Panhard Racecar Co." (French) don't tell the English!
the 1901 Paris > Berlin race Charles Garath-(spl?), was awarded the number #13 for his Panhard race car, the factory tried to calm him down by giving the car a "French Lucky Colour"
"GREEN" it then became BRG with it's own British Standard- Colour #BS 381 C The first "Official BRG" car was the 1903 Gordon Bennett Napier" reg; DW 214 So then ,the rest, as they say, is History ...hum?? "BRG" started by the FRENCH.... (it probably could start a war!)

...Peter

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

Oh! and after a little reading (never beleave what you read)
I find out that in 1970 the "International Body" FIA lifted the "Colours of the Country" GP racing went down-hill from there! and alot of companies made BIG BUCKS from the colour and advertising of the car, See how important a colour can be...

[Michael M]

Ray, Caracciola's Alfa was a private entry, hence of course it was coloured white. Basis for the color was not the country of origin of the car, but the nationality of the entrant.

[Ray Bell]

Caratsch was Swiss, wasn't he?
Or wasn't that until later?

[Michael M]

No, he was German. He moved to Switzerland somewhere in the 30s, mainly for personal (Baby Hofmann), and probably also for financial reasons (tax). It is very often said that his move also had political background, but I doubt this. Don't know whether he also applied for Swiss citizenship.

[Ray Bell]

I'm sure Neubauer's book refers to his naturalisation as a Swiss, now you mention it, some time in the fifties, I think, but it may have been before the war. That's nice and vague, isn't it?
Neubauer also gives detail of his early life, if I'm not mistaken.

[Roger Clark]

Lord Montagu, in his history of the Gordon Bennett Races says:

"All the 1903 Napier racing cars were painted emerald green - this was a gesture of respect to Ireland suggested by Count Zborowski shortly before his tragic death in the La Turbie Hill Climb, and the green motif was carried to extremes by the Napier equipe, the pit staff in Ireland sporting nekties of this hue. Green has remained Napier's official racing colour from that day onwards, though the shade has varied with different makes down the years"

[Don Capps]

Ray,

Rudi Caracciola was very much a German -- born & bred as they say. The Swiss connection was much more a case of the two items already mentioned: Baby Hoffman and taxes. However, his move to Switzerland did not go unnoticed by several of the sports henchmen...

All,

Unless someone can help out, I have nothing in the contemporary accounts about the "white" to "silver" story. The cars were silver at the GP de l'ACF and ditto at the AVUS and the Eifelrennen...

[Michael M]

For the AVUS-Rennen (May 27) the cars had been entered, but later withdrawn, because Mercedes felt that they had not been ready finally. Therefore I have no photos available. However, one photo shows von Brauchitsch during tests on the AVUS earlier in May, and although the photo of course is b/w, the car seems to be white. The Eifelrennen (June 3) is reported to be the event where the "paint stripping" happened, and as this was done before the race, the cars of course raced in silver. For Montlhery (July 1) they stayed with the "new silver", but as they found the excess weight somewhere else in the meantime, the bodywork now was painted in silver instead of bare aluminium.

[Don Capps]

Michael,

That makes sense. Also, if the matter was of only a kgs as is always written, I am certain that D-B & A-U could have figured a means by the French race to race white cars... Also, keep in mind it was both teams, which is where I got my eyebrows raised.

Hans? Only you Obi-wan Hans can helps us...

[Hans Etzrodt]

I don't know much either on this subject. Auto Union, even before the Avus trials, had started out with their cars in silver, against which the Mercedes-Benz appeared at the Avus pre-race trials in white. In this color the cars arrived for the Eifelrennen the following week but the white paint was removed before the race.

To my knowledge, the question of why Daimler-Benz opted to change their cars from white to silver has never been answered properly.

[Joris Bergsma]

My knowledge is even far less than that of Hans. Still it's the kind of subject I like. Who can tell the next story is true or false? I heard it some time ago and cannot check it. The colour BGP (Bleu Grand Prix) as used by the French Bugatti's was taken from the pack of Gauloise cigarettes. The same story is saying that Ettore's mother checked the colour of the cars before leaving Molsheim with her own pack of Gauloise.

[fines]

Funny story with the fag packet, really! I'd assume that this particular subject is more prone to myths than any other...

[Ray Bell]

So let's diverge a little ... the colour of cigarette packets in that era... why did Lucky Strike wait until WW2 to change from green to red?
Oh, I think it's a phurphy about Ettore's mother.

[Barry Lake]

The man who inspired the original Monaco GP was a wealthy cigarette manufacturer. Was that Gauloise cigarettes, does anyone know?
Perhaps there was a link.
It wouldn't be impossible that Bugatti had liked that particular shade of blue and said to the paint manufacturer "match that colour".
I doubt the story about his mother, but I suppose it could have happened with the first car. Perhaps the choice of colour was hers?
Or, has anyone thought of the possibility that in those days of "no advertising" the cigarette manufacturer (Gauloise) might have provided support for Bugatti in exchange for the cars being painted a colour that reminded spectators of his cigarette packets?
Commercialism wasn't invented by Bernie Ecclestone and Ron Dennis you know!
More than likely the whole thing is a myth... but interesting food for thought.

[Michael M]

May be somebody at Daimler-Benz found the silover colour much nicer than the standard white, so it was adopted as general colour. But the Auto Unions ...., correct Don, I never thought about this! A photo of the Type A prototype does not show clearly whether it's white or silver, anybody around having pictures of AU from AVUS and Eifelrennen 1934? May be it was government decision - as they paid large part of the initial R&D expenses - to change from white to silver after watching the MB cars at Nürburgring.
Rather interesting item!

[Hans Etzrodt]

Michael,
there exist several pictures of the Auto Union, before the Avusrennen, then from both the Avus and Eifelrennen. The car did not appear to be white.

[Don Capps]

Michael & Hans,

As I implied, I sorta bought into the paint story -- the W25's having a white finish during the early testing, but the Typ A's never seemed to be anything but silver. And the Typ A's were apparently silver when they arrived at the track for the Eifelrennen, the same color as they were at the AVUSrennen. It only took a few decades, but the "Aha! Light" finally came on some years ago, probably after the Nixon book came out.

Personal theory is along the same lines already suggested -- that the new government decided that silver was a better & more dynamic color for the cars. After all, it did have an investment in the teams...

Also, recall that Rob Walker did convince the organizers at the German GP in the mid-60's when they decreed that cars had to be in "national colors" of the entrant that his car was indeed in the correct colors when they indicated that his entry should be in some shade of green: he informed them that as a Scot, his car was in the racing colors of Scotland. And so the car raced in the usual Walker colors...

As for commercialism in European racing and GP racing, give credit where most of the credit is due: Ken Gregory and Alfred Moss. The British Racing Partnership and its alliances with Yeoman Credit, United Dominion Trust, and Laystall paved the way.

Certain commercial decals were allowed, but severely restricted in size and placement from the mid-60's, which the teams usually ignored or just considered a hassle and didn't bother with. I do recall an Esso decal with the Esso Tiger and a small Goodyear loznege on the Brabhams at Watkins Glen in 1965, but there were probably others which I don't recall off hand.

[Ray Bell]

Now that the issue of what the German Government put in has been raised, perhaps it's relevant to ask when that money came to light....
I thought I read that it was a result-related incentive, not hand in the tin for development.... surely Karl has something definite on this?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Michael M, Ray and Don,
I missed your discussion about Caracciola’s Nationality some 12 or 15 posts back. Rudi had become Swiss citizen November 1946.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Don,
I never doubted that the Auto Union's were silver from the onset, which means they were never white.
The Mercedes-Benz cars where always white until the mechanics changed the color during practice at the 1934 Eifelrennen.

Having seen the cars in original, I remember that the silver color of the Mercedes appeared to be brighter than the initial Auto Union silver paint. All this I find somewhat hard to prove, since there exist practically only B&W pictures from that era, with the silver cars sometimes appearing to be white.

That the German Government of 1933/34 should have intervened in determining usage of silver color instead of white for the cars is highly speculative. As far as I remember, the German sports cars of that period raced in white.

[Ray Bell]

This, then Hans, is clearly one of those many things we just don't (at this time) know?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Ray,
Like I said here before, the question of why Daimler-Benz opted to change their cars from white to silver has never been answered properly.

Is there the possibility that it could take less silver paint to cover the bare silver aluminum than using white paint? If that is the case, it would result in a little weight savings. I thought you know about these technical things and could give your advise on that topic?

[Ray Bell]

There was Johnny Mathis, singing away.. no, not Mathis cars... Johnny Mathis singing: "It's not for me to say.."

[Michael M]

According to Karl Ludvigsen to W25 has been brought exactly to the 750 kg limit mainly by drilling holes in nearly everything. However, shortly before the Eifelrennen some refinement changes took place, among others also an additional airflow plate, alltogether creating on overweight of 1.4 kgs. There was not enough time for the mechanics to find potential places for additional lightenings and to set the corresponding drillings, so the paint was removed. When back at the factory, the 1.4 kgs could be found “more technically”, so the weight for the paint could be released again.

[Marco94]

Supposedly it was not the paint that made the difference, but the filler used. Since the body panels were beaten, a lot of filler was used to create a smooth surface.

Marco.

[Ray Bell]

If it was lead filler, that makes sense...

[Michael M]

Contrary to today's concours restorers, the race car builders of the past didn't care about surface conditions. Look at period photos, and you'll know. That's the reason that unfortunately also good preserved and original cars are restored today to a standard which they never had when leaving the factory.

[Barry Lake]

And that's why I get a bigger buzz out of seeing an unrestored race car in a museum workshop than I do the over-restored one on display in the museum. Like veteran cars, also over restored, there is an air of unreality about them.
I have to say I think the Bugatti restoration people have done quite well in that respect, aiming more for originality than perfection. I have seen quite a few Bugattis that look not too far removed from what they would have been originally - better condition, yes, but not as excessively so as many other makes.

Which reminds me... On another thread someone mentioned the Bugatti "Tank" of the 1920s (don't ask me the type number and year right now, it is almost 2.00 am, I worked all last night, had only four hours sleep this morning and had a one and a half hour "sweat session" on the dance floor tonight with no one else other than Loretta and I over 23 years of age. I am beyond tired, only staying up so I can say I outlasted Ray Bell again...)

Anyway, I had meant to mention that an Australian (ask Ray for his name and background) has created what looks like a very accurate replica of one of these cars. I have had a close look at it and it looks the goods to me - probably better condition than the originals, but realistic enough to impress me.

If we had Graham Howard on this forum he could tell us all about it. I know you can buy any part of a Bugatti new - at a price - but I don't know how much of this was bought from suppliers like that and how much was made in Australia. Great work though. As I have often said, better a very accurate replica than nothing.

[Ray Bell]

Bob King, Solicitor in Melbourne... built, I believe, mostly from bits of models using the same parts.

[MN]

Soichiro Honda had a choice for Japan since Honda was the only one entered F1 in '60th.
He wanted GOLD first but FIA did not allow gold, then he wanted SILVER but Germany was using silver that time.
He picked IVORY WHITE.

[Barry Lake]

“I do not think it is generally known that it was Eliot Zborowski who suggested originally that a different colour should be allotted to each nation competing in the grands épreuves.”

- David Scott-Moncrieff, writing of Zborowski’s fatal crash in 1903, in “Veteran and Edwardian Motor Cars”, published by B T Batsford Ltd in 1955.

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

Hello again;
It's been a few weeks since I have had the time to play with my computer, the; "MotorSport Resort", and our race event next year the; "Spanish SpeedWeek" has taken most of the "48" hours per day, that I have, so I purchased a "lap-top" .... and guess where Im sitting... and where my computer is?
Anyway, I love to read all the responce...I still ask: why does anyone think we lost the International Racing Colours?
The answer: it lost it's charm and tradition to BIG BUCK advertisers...Well, quite simple $$$$££££££
So the story ends....and a new chapter of Motor Racing.

P.S. In reference to the Silver "Look" of the W-125, bare aluminum was never done in those day's ,except for testing, or, unless your Team, had no money for paint! the car was "unfinished" so the press laughed, and called the car the "SILVER ARROW" and yes, the paint was removed, and I will never beleave that even a lb. (or) kilo was lost, but the MB boy's tricked the organizers to think the car was now to the weight regulation...Crafty don't you think! I'm sure the paint "HAD" a weight of 2 kilos+ before it dried, and was sprayed...and that's how they convinced them ,by drilling holes the car, and removing the paint. ...So because of that day Germany, had a "Official" colour of Silver instead of White..(Can you imagine Mercedes-Benz / Porsche / Audi's VW's running around the world painted WHITE...!????

Interesting; that, "Silver & Grey" reminds me of the weather in Germany most of the year...(how clever those Germans)...

So, the Media of the day, called the W-125 "The SILVER ARROW"
I still can't understand the "ARROW" part? Does anyone know?


Cheers....
Peter Schomer

[Dennis David]

If I'm not mistaken it was the filler used rather than the paint which saved the weight. Since these were hand beaten body panels they used a lot of filler. Don't remember where I read that though I think it is from Lang.

I also understand that originally the official color for the United States was Red![p][Edited by Dennis David on 10-28-2000]

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by MOTORSPORT RESORT
...So, the Media of the day, called the W-125 "The SILVER ARROW"
I still can't understand the "ARROW" part? Does anyone know?
...

Probably arrow stood for speed.
...as fast as an arrow...

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by Dennis David
If I'm not mistaken it was the filler used rather than the paint which saved the weight. Since these were hand beaten body panels they used a lot of filler. Don't remember where I read that though I think it is from Lang.

That's correct. It's Lang.
"The cars had been painted very carefully in order to get an excellent finish, but the bodies were uneven hand-beaten aluminium. That meant a lot of lead filler was applied before the paint was sprayed on."

[jarama]

I'm back on this topic, so searching info about da Silva Ramos first name, I've found the national colors for Madagascar: white body with a broad stripe of dark green along the car.

[FucF1]

Regarding British Racing Green the story I heard was that the earliest British motorsport events had to be held on road circuits in Ireland (then part of the British empire) as road racing in England/Scotland/Wales had been banned.

Therefore as a gesture the British cars were painted Green, traditional colour of Ireland and thats how they have remained.

[dbw]

just a quick note on the use of "lead" filler on early race car bodies......having been around many early competition cars[some with originial panels]i have found no trace of what we would consider body filler.....you must remember that panel beaters of the pre and just post war era were craftsmen of the first order that had skills that today we would find extraordinary....there usually was no need for "fillers" as we think of them....on alloy bodied cars if there was anything it was a thick paste of a lacquer-concentrate..[usually over seams and weld fissures]....lead was indeed used in the world of custom coachwork that appeared on street cars that had steel panels.even in the days of heavy pressed chassis rails on pure grand prix cars, weight was the enemy and was to be defeated in any manner.. thus alloy panels ....i actually doubt that a body builder would add the weight of lead to his creation...[not to mention i'm not sure it would stick]