27 replies to this topic

[colejk]

I worked at Jaguar Cars in Toronto from 94-99. In 96 I had the fortune to visit the factory at Browns Lane, Coventry UK
on a company sponsored trip.
When I was there the engineers were saying that there was a lot of research being done at their engineering department at Whitley on ceramic engines, and this is a technology which will be seen very soon.
With all the talk about Renault and their new high temp. engines, could they be using new ceramic components? From what was explained to me the benefit with using ceramic engine blocks is their ability to run at very high temps.
Any thoughts on this?
I just cannot see that many new possible advancements with the current engines they have now, unless they do something dramatic like this.

[Nathan]

Interesting, how strong are ceramic products?? Resisting heat is one thing, strength is another. How much higher/lower are costs and manufacturing times? Isnt this banned anyways with the new anti-Be rules???

[colejk]

Well ceramic products are quite strong. Ceramic materials and products are quite common these days. It's rigid and never really wears out. eg, ceramic knives which never require sharpening. Mind you i think that the type of material to be used for an engine block would be quite different. Ceramics are I believe brittle though, so I coudn't see them being used for moving parts.
As for the legality of using this material in F1 with current regs..Hmm....maybe someone else could answer that.

[Ali_G]

I am not sure which sort of materials are used but Renault are going to use a very unique engine in the Benetton next year.

1.It will be able to take a lot more heat than other engines which means a small increase in revs will be posible.

2.It also means that there will be less need for a cooling system and so a smaller cooling system will just be needed. Therefore the weight of the car will be less.

3.THe sidepods will also be slightly lower. This will better aerodynamics for the car. Should be a great Benetton next year.

Niall

[Powersteer]

Tank armour technology is where ceramic technology is at its highest, actually mixing ceramic and metal. From the metal the want strengh and from the ceramic tp prevent combustion heat penetration and hardness. Tungsten wool is also added into the armour to prevent tearing up the armour, ciao

[Top Fuel F1]

colejk:

Possibly they were eluding to a process called Lokasil where fibers containing silicon are added to the casting mold as a pre-form. Then the aluminum block is casted. Then the top layer of aluminum is removed leaving the hardened silicon crystals at the bearing (including cylinder walls) surfaces.

[desmo]

Ceramic engine components are entirely legal in F1, provided they are not reinforced with CF or Aramid (Kevlar), with the exception of the cams and cranks which must be made of steel or iron.

Most common MMCs, Al matrix with silicon carbide or Al oxide, could be considered ceramic or partly so.

[Halfwitt]

From 2000 FIA regulations:

15.1.2) With the exception of internal engine parts, no parts of the car may be made from metallic materials which have a specific modulus of elasticity greater than 40 GPa / (g/cm3).

So, it looks like everything is legal now, but I had read in one of the magazines that materials for everything in the engine will be limited to the above figure, i.e. 40GPa / (g/cm3) for 2001 onwards.

Does anyoe know what the current state of play is with this. I can't imagine the consequences of designing an engine based on these expensive and light materials are only to find them banned.

[desmo]

Why do I suspect that MMCs with a specific Modulus of Elasticity of 39.9 GPa/(g/cm3) are being developed for use as engine internals at this very moment?

[Kapu7]

With ceramic engines temperatures get higher, but doesn't it make a problem with increased NOx formation? There's only one way requlations can go with NOx and other pollutants.

[DangerMouse]

With ceramic engines there would be no need for cooling, much more of the combustion heat would be turned into motive power rather than being absorbed by the cylinder block/head/pistons - the only sticking point is cooling the valves and valve seats as (currently) they'd still have to be metallic to withstand the shock loadings imposed on them.
This might not be a problem in engines running direct injection as pre-ignition could be control by timing the injection of fuel or by the adoption of a sleeve type valve instead of the good old poppet valve, the sleeve valve could be ceramic too.

Another advantage of a ceramic adiabatic engine is the possible eradication of cylinder lubrication, which would cut hydrocarbon emissions massively (to almost zero) as most of the HC emmisions from current cars is from the burning of lubricating oil - not the fuel itself. (of course this doesn't apply to diesels!)

[palmas]

The use of ceramics in engine parts is not so new, the big problem has alwais been the dimensional one. Using machine or rectify a ceramic part, so the molding has to be perfect (and the thickness shoulb be constant, etc..). We tried ceramic valv seats in big engines with excelent results in high temperatures and wear. I'm shure F1 teams will be able to find a solution for the dimensional issue. By the way, what we are calling "ceramics" are actualy mutch stronger mechanicly than most suspect.
Also in the aerodinamic parts we will probably see some ceramics in the future, for it is possible to create a surface that is so smooth the even glue wont hold on to it!
New materials are the future!

[DangerMouse]

Indeed palmas - some lorry engines have had ceramic piston crowns for years. The problem with fully ceramic pistons is their weight, this causes too big a strain on the crankshaft and conrods and so you can't rev em!

Obviously if you could build an adiabatic engine the torque output would be much greater meaning you wouldn't have to rev the engine as much to make the same power. (as power (BHP) is Torque X Revs/5250) But with current materials restrictions the way of revs would still make you more power, but the aerodynamicly efficient adiabatic car would be faster round a track.

[palmas]

Couldn't agree more!. The biggest aerodinamic problem F1 cars have are the engine coolers. Not only the air has to go trough the radiators, but that also means that it wont go to the "wings".
By the way, there are several working addiabatic experimental engines. Just F1 rated engines are difficult to build (even "normal" engines are).

[Halfwitt]

I would think ceramic combustion chambers / piston tops would lead to higher temperatures, but a lower knock limit, i.e. lower compression ratios before knock. I heard some years ago that the main area for this type of engine was military diesel engines for tanks to eliminate points of weakness (radiator grilles etc). Maybe it is only useful for diesel engines in eliminating the need for coolant and increasing efficiency, or for low compression petrol engines.

[DangerMouse]

Halfwitt, knock isn't a problem if you use direct injection timed to fire the fuel in when you need it.

[Billy Gunn]

DM,

Knock isn't a problem with F1 engines, period. Once an engine goes over 10K - 12K rpm knock ceases to exist. This has been well documented over the years, probably the first time by Honda in the late sixties when talking about their high revving bike engines from that era. From memory Honda also stated that emissions also cease to be a major problem at high rpm values, like NOx and HC just don't get time to form.

Honda were running engines to 20,000 and beyond by the late '60's.

Most GP motorcycle engines (2 strokes) have also used ceramics in their engines for the past 10 years. This has been in the form of 2 piece pistons with full ceramic crowns supported by MMC skirts. Ceramic rolling element bearings have also been used for some time in these engines.

[desmo]

For a couple of reasons knock or detonation are not issues currently in F1, even given the prosaic fuel blends mandated. As BG pointed out, at extremely high rpms knock or detonation is unlikely to occur. The other reason is that compression ratios cannot be achieved past about 13:1. Due to the extreme valve lifts required to make the engine breathe at 17+K rpm, there is neccessarily some lift around TDC which limits c.r..

Judd in '98: "One problem that you never have to worry about is detonation. You just don't get the compression ratio into the area where that is a problem! You can get yourself into detonation with a Formula 3000 engine running 14:1. In my experience, 14:1 and 9,000rpm is just about OK. You are unlikely to be in any sort of trouble at 13:1 or less running in the 13,000rpm-plus area."

I know he is referring to detonation rather than knock here, but the same principles apply.

[Nathan]

So whats part can be made of ceramics and what cant?

[DangerMouse]

indeed with a NA engine cylinder filling becomes a problem at higher revs which reduces effective CR massively circumventing detonation - however, the engine has still got to run at lower revs!

[colejk]

With regards to Nathan's question about what parts can be made, at Jaguar, the engineers were talking about the block mostly. I also remember a Popular Science issue years ago with a writeup on ceramic engines in the future. Whether they will ever be feasible enough for the extremes of F1 racing, for car manufacturers to pursue the technology, means that someone in F1 should have explored using this material by now. The types of ceramics available now are just unreal too, so I'm sure they could be used in some form.

[desmo]

Given the gearing, an F1 engine seldom sees less than 14Krpm in high-load conditions. In the dyno room, they use c.10K just to warm the oil!

[desmo]

I see no possible reason to use a ceramic block as long as the pistons are Al alloy. At any temp high enough to utilise a ceramic block, the pistons would literally melt.

[Halfwitt]

Originally posted by desmo
Given the gearing, an F1 engine seldom sees less than 14Krpm in high-load conditions. In the dyno room, they use c.10K just to warm the oil!

Wouldn't they be better warming the oil up first using a heating element?

[Nathan]

Would a ceramic block be lighter than an aluminum block? Is a magnesium block feasable? I thought Ford did that back in the 70's.

[desmo]

Warming the oil is a somewhat glib term for warming the engine. There is a lot of localised combustion and friction-induced heat in a high-rpm engine. For clearances to be correct there is no substitute for running it fast.

[desmo]

http://lamar.colosta...jbeard/lit.html

This is a link to a page that contains summaries of literature on high-temp engine tech. The subject is mostly CI engines, but many of the materials and lubrication issues are germaine to high-temp SI engines as well. A skim through will give some idea of the hurdles faced if one chooses to go this route. It's a bit heavy on the techno-babble, but interesting nonetheless. [p][Edited by desmo on 10-04-2000]

[Top Fuel F1]

As far as I know the only thing connecting the rear of the F1 car to it's chassis is the engine. So it must be able to with stand the great cornering loads and the aero forces from the rear wing. I can see where a process like Lokasil, where the silicon is laced though out the block, is still basically an AL casting. Also processes where an AL block only has it's surfaces treated. I read thru the Thread but am still not sure if there is any notion of a block entirely composed of some kind of ceramic material. Is there? If so what is the assessment on it's ability to take these loads and forces?

Best Regards;