163 replies to this topic

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

Alain Prost won amazing 51 races and scored 4 World Championship titles. Ayrton Senna won 41 races and scored 3 titles. The statistics speak for Prost. But Senna's career was cut short due to his accident in Imola unfortunately. How many races would he have won had he not crashed? More that Prost? When at their career climax, both drivers were outstandingly fast, maybe Senna was faster but Prost was a better tactician. So who was the better driver of the two?

[MichaelPM]

PROST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[giacomo]

Clark could wipe the floor with both of them.

[mursuka80]

Giovanna Amati

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

Originally posted by giacomo
Clark could wipe the floor with both of them.

A Double-WC? What makes you think this?

[Louis Mr. F1]

Senna was the better driver and this is from a Prost fan, here is the reason:

Senna was better in qualifying / backmarkers / rain / passings / street circuits
Prost was better in car setup / car preservation / tactics

however, Prost was 5 years old than Senna when they were teammate, so their absolute pace might have been closer if their age difference is smaller, the advantage that Prost had over Senna diminished as Senna matured, so Prost didn't really have anymore advantage in 91 & 93.

I'd like to see the Prost of 84-86 to race with the Senna in 91 - 93 - I think that's their respective peak years.
Remember Prost learnt from Lauda and became a more 'careful' driver in 85 after losing the championship in 84, so that speed up his maturity relative to Senna.

[BMW_F1]

Senna

[DarthWillie]

equal

[Sneezy]

I bet there has been at least 20 threads like this on this board over the years.

[Louis Mr. F1]

Originally posted by Sneezy
I bet there has been at least 20 threads like this on this board over the years.

no don't agree, maybe 17 - 18, but definitely not 20+

[secessionman]

I suppose your next post will a poll to establish who was better - Lauda or Fittipaldi.

Then after that it will be who was better - Mansell, Piquet, Prost, Senna, Lauda, or Fittipaldi.

Oh what about Schumacher against Gilles?

or what about Mazzacane against Rosset?

You know what, there are really some things that are so subjective there can never be a correct answer, and you seem to be finding them all, thus far.

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

Originally posted by secessionman
You know what, there are really some things that are so subjective there can never be a correct answer, and you seem to be finding them all, thus far.

Yes, it is probably down to everyone's opinion. And I would like to know yours. Thanks.

[wrighty]

oh this isn't very contentious

heart says Senna, head says Prost it's all window-dressing after that

[awake27]

Please put more options like:

"Both drivers equal"

and

"I don't care"

[Atreiu]

I think they were the best ever and complimented each other. Much of their brilliance and geniosity comes from how it could only take one to trully beat the other, and still one would always find a way to strike back later on. Even on their worse moments, they were just equal.




And then Schumacher put together qualities of both, including ther worse, to dominate F1.

[Sakae]

Those three guys spoiled me; now seeing the current grid - and I really do not mean disrespect to anyone - but I feel that I am being cheated. There is no one character that stands up and can say I walk in shoes of the greats.

[jgm]

Prost was a better driver of an F1 car than Senna. Senna was a more effective racer of an F1 car than Prost. Well, what does this mean? Consider the equivalent of a bicycle pursuit race, only for F1 cars. Senna starts on one side of the track and Prost on the opposite side of the track. Both car and track suit the drivers perfectly. They spend an hour trying to gain on eachother without being able to see or interfere with eachother. Prost would definitely win. In a conventional race with all its opportunities for aggression, intimidation, crazy risk taking and foul play Senna would win more often. Consider that in his career Prost set the fastest lap in GPs on 41 occasions. Senna set the fastest lap on 19 occasions - the same number of times as Damon Hill despite the fact that Senna competed in 46 GPs more than Hill.

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

Originally posted by MiPe
Those three guys spolied me; now seeing the current grid - and I really do not mean disrespect to anyone - but I feel that I am being cheated. There is no one character that stands up and can say I walk in shoes of the greats.

A good point. I think a driver like Prost, Senna, Schumacher is very rare and we were wery lucky to watch them a racing. In a certain way they all were genius. At the moment I cannot see which driver can be compared to them. But perhaps we should judge Alonso, Raikkonen and the others by the end of their careers.

[BMW_F1]

http://youtube.com/w...feature=related

[secessionman]

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer
Yes, it is probably down to everyone's opinion. And I would like to know yours. Thanks.

They both had very different strengths, therefore to suggest who was 'better' is in some way demeaning to the other.

For the record, I abstained from this vote.

[craftverk]

I think at his peak (91-94) Senna would be the better one. Prost certainly not far behind though.

[Ferrim]

Who is better, Mom or Dad?

This is one of those questions without a correct answer.

I like Senna best, but that's because I've read a lot more things about him and necessarily you learn about his way of thinking, his reasons for hating Prost and so on. And I've read a lot more about him just because he got killed that day at Imola.

Oh, and let's move this to the Nostalgia Forum, please.

[MLC]

For me, Prost was the overall better driver. I believe he best combined the qualities necessary to make a top tier GP driver. Senna had those same qualities (and was clearly better in some) but Prost comes out on top overall. Consider that when Prost retired he was either first or second in every major record category (1st in wins, points, fastest laps, podiums; 2nd in championships, qualifying). Though statistics have a limited use, what is interesting is that Prost achieved this while having the strongest teammate lineup of any driver. He was teamed with past Champions (Lauda, Roseberg, Senna), future Champions (Mansell, Hill), Championship contenders (Watson, Arnoux), rising stars (Alesi) and only two journeymen (Johannson, Cheever). Below is how these teammates compared in the same equipment that Prost achieved his stats.


Stat: Prost / Teammate

Championships: 4 / 2
Wins: 51 / 26
Poles: 33 / 41
Podium: 106 / 61
Fastest lap: 41 / 22
Points: 798.5 / 483

[Drexel]

If your life depended on it, who would you have backed to win the WC? I think most people would say prost, even senna fans. Senna for the win if your life depended on it though.

[Mauseri]

Prost. I didnt like Senna and he was a bad example for the sport. Oh, and Prost was better driver as well.

[Collombin]

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer


A Double-WC? What makes you think this?

Was that a serious post?

[molive]

Originally posted by micra_k10
Prost. I didnt like Senna and he was a bad example for the sport. Oh, and Prost was better driver as well.

SFU kid. You dont even know what you're talking about. Have you ever actually watched a race from 88 to 93?

Bad example??? haha. The only thing Senna did was to (rightfully) punt Jean Marie Balestre's Protegé off the track and pay-back for being so clearly ROBBED of a well deserved title. A year earlier Prost, knowing that once Senna got past he was going to lose the title and be so embarassed, closed the door and tried to force both out of the race. Prost quit the fight, while Senna went back on and had a great race like only him knew how to!

Oh, and lets not forget that a rookie Senna, in a freaking TOLEMAN, was ready to embarass Prost in a rainy Monaco, when the race was shortened for "safety reasons". Yeah right.

Prost sucked so bad in rainy conditions it was not funny (he once even spun during a WARMUP LAP for crying out loud).

[Nitropower]

Prost. Worse qualifier, better racer.

[Dolph]

I'm gonna say that anyone who voted here is a dumbass.

[Dolph]

Originally posted by molive


SFU kid. You dont even know what you're talking about. Have you ever actually watched a race from 88 to 93?

Bad example??? haha. The only thing Senna did was to (rightfully) punt Jean Marie Balestre's Protegé off the track and pay-back for being so clearly ROBBED of a well deserved title. A year earlier Prost, knowing that once Senna got past he was going to lose the title and be so embarassed, closed the door and tried to force both out of the race. Prost quit the fight, while Senna went back on and had a great race like only him knew how to!

Oh, and lets not forget that a rookie Senna, in a freaking TOLEMAN, was ready to embarass Prost in a rainy Monaco, when the race was shortened for "safety reasons". Yeah right.

Prost sucked so bad in rainy conditions it was not funny (he once even spun during a WARMUP LAP for crying out loud).

lol, shortening the race eventually cost him the title. Second place in a 75% completed race and he would have been the champ. Whatever myth you are trying to push through here about Prost and his rain driving abilities, you are forgetting two very important things: he was leading the race and he won it.

Here's a short overview of just how close Prost was to being an 8 time world champion:

1983 2nd 57 points, 1st Piquet 59 points - Prost lost by 2 points
1984 2nd 71,5 points, 1st Lauda 72 points - Prost lost by 0,5 points
1988 2nd 87 (104) points, 1st Senna 90 (94) points - Prost lost by 3 points
1990 2nd 71 (73) points, 1st Senna 78 points - Prost lost by 7 points

[Slyder]

Both have their strengths, both have their weaknesses, and both brought out the best and the worst of each other.

Since I grew up idolizing Ayrton, I'm inclined to vote for him, however I know that would be a disservice to Prost, because he was also an amazing driver in his own right. I ultimately respect both of them.

[molive]

Originally posted by Dolph

Here's a short overview of just how close Prost was to being an 8 time world champion:

No one denies he was a great driver, but, better than Senna, no, imo he wasnt.

Slyder

[noikeee]

Piquet vs Mansell was ok.

To bring this one up, however, is just unnecessary. Because it's been done more times than Mosley's hookers.

And as a Prost fan, I say Senna wins.

[Slyder]

Originally posted by Dolph


lol, shortening the race eventually cost him the title. Second place in a 75% completed race and he would have been the champ. Whatever myth you are trying to push through here about Prost and his rain driving abilities, you are forgetting two very important things: he was leading the race and he won it.

True, but it would've been something had the race been allowed to continue. The rumor still persists that Jacky Ickxx waved the flag in order to spare Porsche the embarrasment of being beaten by a lesser car, or lesser cars, since we have to remember that Stefan Belloff was also closing fast behind both him and Senna. However, ultimately I guess that's beside the point, what happened, happened.

Here's a short overview of just how close Prost was to being an 8 time world champion:

1983 2nd 57 points, 1st Piquet 59 points - Prost lost by 2 points
1984 2nd 71,5 points, 1st Lauda 72 points - Prost lost by 0,5 points
1988 2nd 87 (104) points, 1st Senna 90 (94) points - Prost lost by 3 points
1990 2nd 71 (73) points, 1st Senna 78 points - Prost lost by 7 points

So what are you trying to say?

Hell, Piquet could've been a 4 time champ hadn't his engine blown at Canada in 1980. Same with Lauda hadn't he been seriously injured at the ring in 1976. The guy who started his thread questioned Jim Clark's talent regarding Prost and Senna. He probably doesn't know that Clark would've won the 1962, 64 and 67 Championships if it weren't for the fact that Chapman's cars were so damn fragile, but then again, we're comparing two eras which were completely different.

Ultimately I guess we must judge them by what they accomplished instead of going through so many assupmtions and suppositions, that road just leads to ruin.

[Dolph]

Originally posted by Slyder
So what are you trying to say?

Hell, Piquet could've been a 4 time champ hadn't his engine blown at Canada in 1980. Same with Lauda hadn't he been seriously injured at the ring in 1976. The guy who started his thread questioned Jim Clark's talent regarding Prost and Senna. He probably doesn't know that Clark would've won the 1962, 64 and 67 Championships if it weren't for the fact that Chapman's cars were so damn fragile, but then again, we're comparing two eras which were completely different.

Ultimately I guess we must judge them by what they accomplished instead of going through so many assupmtions and suppositions, that road just leads to ruin. [/B]

I think "he almost was a 4 time champ" is as pale as an albino compared to "he almost was a 8 time champ". And I was trying to say exactly what I said. Since noone brought it up I thought it be import to mention.

[DaleCooper]

I was not particularly a fan of either one. In particular, Lauda was my favourite driver in the early 80s, then Mansell later on. These were rivals to be feared and respected. Each absolutely a fantastic F1 driver, with bucketloads of ability. But..... Senna was the better driver, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. The fact of the matter is, that statistics do not paint an accurate picture here. Senna made Prost look ordinary, and he was the only one! Forget the superior tactician nonsense, he had to be, to contend with Senna's pace and uncompromising determination. That is all Alain could turn to, because he bloody well knew he wasn't going to beat Senna on pace ANYWHERE(ok except maybe France).

Frankly, Senna, much like Schumacher later on, was fast everywhere, under all track conditions, with all cars, using whatever tyres, in any weather.... the guy was on a pedestal looking down on mere mortals such as Prost.

There is something to be said about Prost's approach though. He didn't risk nearly as much as Senna, and if he had, he would have been a lot closer to the absolute pace. Senna and Mansell hung it all out, they left no room for margin, Prost was more conservative, especially in his later years.

There were very few races that Prost actually outdrove Senna in. Most commonly he had to be content with second, unless special circumstances occured, which was fairly common in those days, and so he is now seen by revisionists as actually a lot closer to Senna than he ever was.

I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but heck even Alain admitted that Senna was better. He should know.


Cooper

[Drexel]

Originally posted by DaleCooper

I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but heck even Alain admitted that Senna was better. He should know.


Cooper

You know he never said that.

[kar]

For me Prost. It was Prost who made me fall in love with the sport. While Senna was the outright quicker driver, Prost was the guy that could do it all. Senna was well rounded, but Prost simply was another level ahead. While Aytron would wrest the most out of a car through sheer exertion and genius, Alain could just wave his finger to do almost the same. Put them in the same car at the start of a season, but in different teams and come back at the end of the season Alain would be ahead and with the better package. Aryton would be driving the wheels off of his car and just keeping up.

To be honest they are 2 of the top five drivers of all time. We all have a preference, the magician or the professor. For me it was the Frenchman scared of rain

[DaleCooper]

Originally posted by Drexel


You know he never said that.

Well unless the interview transcript I read a few years ago is make-believe, and all the media outlets invented it, then yes he did say it. So I am just going by fairly common knowledge. SO when you say"You know he never said that" why the **** would I claim something contrary to what I supposedly know? I am not an idiot.


Cooper

[BMW_F1]

I think Senna coming in to an unfamiliar team and beating the champion in his first season for Mclaren says a lot really.

[MLC]

Originally posted by molive


SFU kid. You dont even know what you're talking about. Have you ever actually watched a race from 88 to 93?

Bad example??? haha. The only thing Senna did was to (rightfully) punt Jean Marie Balestre's Protegé off the track and pay-back for being so clearly ROBBED of a well deserved title. A year earlier Prost, knowing that once Senna got past he was going to lose the title and be so embarassed, closed the door and tried to force both out of the race. Prost quit the fight, while Senna went back on and had a great race like only him knew how to!

Oh, and lets not forget that a rookie Senna, in a freaking TOLEMAN, was ready to embarass Prost in a rainy Monaco, when the race was shortened for "safety reasons". Yeah right.

Prost sucked so bad in rainy conditions it was not funny (he once even spun during a WARMUP LAP for crying out loud).

Why so emotional? Senna did have some bad character flaws. Deliberately driving into another competitor at the first corner is a good example. Say what you will, but both Suzuka incidents involved Senna behind with the onus on him to pass safely. He was still one of the most gifted drivers we've ever seen. But mikra_k10 was correct to say he was a bad example at times.

Did you actually watch any races in the 80's? Prost wasn't a bad driver in the wet, just far too cautious after being involved in Pironi's career-ending crash at a wet Hockenheim. In Monaco '84, Senna was superb. But Prost was the only driver in the entire field that didn't make a single mistake the entire weekend. Senna lost control at the harbor chicane and was lucky not to hit anything and continue. And the Toleman wasn't a stranger to running well. The year before Derek Warick ran in 2nd place at Brands Hatch, in the dry on merit. Later in '84 Johansson subbed for Senna and was able to finish in the points.

Prost had some good races in the wet and tricky conditions. He out drove a mistake-prone Senna in the wet-dry Spanish GP in '91. He also passed Hill and Senna in one move for the lead in the tricky wet-dry conditions at San Marino '93. Prost's recent Championships in ice racing also show he knows how to handle slippery conditions.

Make no mistake, Senna was clearly better in the wet. But the hyperbole you're spewing is a bit immature.

[Drexel]

Originally posted by DaleCooper



Well unless the interview transcript I read a few years ago is make-believe, and all the media outlets invented it, then yes he did say it. So I am just going by fairly common knowledge. SO when you say"You know he never said that" why the **** would I claim something contrary to what I supposedly know? I am not an idiot.


Cooper

Can you show the exact quote? ive only ever known prost to admitt senna was the best in qualifying and the best he ever raced but hes never said he was better than himself. I think Prosts always picked his words well in this area also, and has praised senna but also been careful not avoid the 'who was better' scenario as he knows its a delicate topic considering senna's demise.

[Drexel]

Originally posted by MLC


Why so emotional?

Hes brazilian.

[RSNS]

Senna was faster than Prost. Before Senna, Prost seemed able to be fastest of them all, even Niki Lauda (who was getting on).

But even if Senna was indeed faster (in qualifying and also in overall race pace) Prost did a good job. As has been said, he (Prost) reverted to tactical racing. Ok, he could do nothing more (just as Lauda facing Prost) but he was quite good at it.

But put it like that: if I were to bet on who would win the championship or who I would like to have in my team, I would have no doubt in preferring Senna.

Senna was slightly superior in normal race pace, rather superior in adaptability (different cars, different conditions) and quite faster in traffic.

I actually saw both of them driving, and I was not a fan of either.

[djellison]

Both were exceptional. To claim one was ' the best ' is pure nonsense.

Doug

[Risil]

Originally posted by kar

To be honest they are 2 of the top five drivers of all time. We all have a preference, the magician or the professor. For me it was the Frenchman scared of rain

I fail to see how you conclude that Fangio, Foyt, Rosemeyer, Nuvolari, Andretti, Clark, Stewart and Schumacher can be three people.;)

It's impossible, perhaps meaningless, to split the two, though. Senna did seem faster in 1988-89, but Prost outscored him in terms of points, which has to count for something, and in any case already had two World Championships and perhaps less of a desire to prove himself with outright speed. Plus there were noises about unequal treatment of the drivers, especially from Honda, and the suspicion that the natural characteristics of the MP4/4 suited Prost less than those of the MP4/2. Counterbalancing that, of course, was the fact that Senna invariably looked the faster of the two when everything held together, and they weren't racing in France (although for some reason Monaco was a different matter ). What you can say is that they were wildly different drivers, and personalities; in approach they were almost irreconcilable, in achievement, inseperable.

To my knowledge, Senna was never (allegedly) sacked for sleeping with the boss's wife, so my vote probably goes to Prost.

[Mat Rempit]

Prost was better all round driver.

Senna needed to resort to dangerous driving and cheating, and dirty pyschological trick to try to beat Prost.

[Kenaltgr]

Originally posted by Mat Rempit
Prost was better all round driver.

Senna needed to resort to dangerous driving and cheating, and dirty pyschological trick to try to beat Prost.

He beat him in 1988, in 1989 Prost started the whole crash into a rival to gain a WDC. Schumacher perfected it as well as cheating and didn't even race a teammate in the process.

[BMW_F1]

Originally posted by Mat Rempit
Prost was better all round driver.

Senna needed to resort to dangerous driving and cheating, and dirty pyschological trick to try to beat Prost.

Huh? . Prost rammed into Senna in 89 to gain the world championship..
http://youtube.com/w...feature=related

[Ricardo F1]

Senna.