58 replies to this topic

[Sneezy]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68977

Luca.

"I hope we'll manage to win our eighth title in ten years," he told Gazzetta dello Sport. "We will (manage it) if we don't carry on doing stupid things.

This obviously relates to the WCC and not the WDC. This can obviously be traced back to 1999 when Ferrari won their first WCC since 1983, but Mika won the WDC. If they infact win the WCC this year it will be the 8th title in ten years. It will only be the 7th WDC in that timespan.

"We're at the half way point of the season and in the lead of the championship," he added.

Ferrari are not leading the WDC, Lewis is. But Ferrari are leading the WCC. The bottom line, Luca, is obviously talking about the WCC.

This should once and for all close the never-ending debate of what still matters the most to Ferrari. That's how the tifosi feel even though few outside can understand it.

[Enzoluis]

Are you surprised? For Ferrari fans the title that counts is the WCC, then the WDC.

By the way FM and LH are tied in the WDC. Same points, same wins and second and third.

[Anomnader]

I don't think that is actually that much different from how other teams CEO think, most fans want the WCC and WDC for their teams.

[pacwest]

Yes, but Lewis is technically first. He's placed higher in results and therefore if there was a big rock that fell out of the sky and it was decided today, he'd win.

[rolf123]

I find it hard to believe that the tifosi only value the WCC.

The WCC is barely a footnote on the final day of the season and long forgotten after. The WDC is the only one that matters.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by Enzoluis
Are you surprised? For Ferrari fans the title that counts is the WCC, then the WDC.

The bullshit on this BB is incredible...

The WCC is an afterthought, not important.
Nothing compares to a driver winning a WDC for Ferrari fans, atleast in Italy.

How then do you explain 21 years of pain...Ferrari won WCC in 1982/83/99, yet the goal was WDC.

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

Originally posted by pacwest
Yes, but Lewis is technically first.

I doubt it. As someone posted he has the same results as Massa. Kimi is one win down on both of them though.

[Anomnader]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


The bullshit on this BB is incredible...

The WCC is an afterthought, not important.
Nothing compares to a driver winning a WDC for Ferrari fans, atleast in Italy.

I think that should be changed to F1 fans

Tifosi are only Ferrari fans that have decided to dub themselves with a name, nothing more, nothing less

[pingu666]

wcc is more important to the guys who actully make the cars

[rolf123]

Originally posted by Anomnader
Tifosi are only Ferrari fans that have decided to dub themselves with a name, nothing more, nothing less

Tifosi is not a term exclusively for Ferrari fans. They hardly dubbed themselves.

[Sneezy]

Originally posted by Enzoluis
Are you surprised? For Ferrari fans the title that counts is the WCC, then the WDC.

By the way FM and LH are tied in the WDC. Same points, same wins and second and third.

I'm not surprised. But a lot of people can't understand this type of thinking. 90% of the racing world considers F1 to be a driver's championship, not a team championship.

[Sneezy]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


The bullshit on this BB is incredible...

The WCC is an afterthought, not important.
Nothing compares to a driver winning a WDC for Ferrari fans, atleast in Italy.

How then do you explain 21 years of pain...Ferrari won WCC in 1982/83/99, yet the goal was WDC.

Are you serious, Sergio?

[jcbc3]

In order to seperate drivers with equal points the easiest way is to look at it as a number with the wins before the decimal point and then the rest of the places in order afterwards.

So 1 win, 1 second and two thirds (=30 points) would be exprerssed as 1.1200000.
Another driver with one win, one second, a third and two sixths (=30 points) would be expressed as 1.1100200.

And highest number wins. Using that logic the position is:

Hamilton:
3.110100001001
Massa:
3.110100000001
Räikkönen:
2.211000110000

Meaning Hamilton leads on account of his 10th place in France

(works for me )

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by Sneezy


Are you serious, Sergio?

I tend to agree with BBC. If anything, Ferrari fans may tend to place more significance on the WCC than other fans might, insofar as we tend to be allied to the team, rather than to any specific driver. But the WDC is still the proverbial brass ring. Winning the WCC is the sauce for the goose (when a Ferrari driver wins the WDC) or the silver lining (when the WDC is won elsewhere).

[Sneezy]

Originally posted by Scudetto


I tend to agree with BBC. If anything, Ferrari fans may tend to place more significance on the WCC than other fans might, insofar as we tend to be allied to the team, rather than to any specific driver. But the WDC is still the proverbial brass ring. Winning the WCC is the sauce for the goose (when a Ferrari driver wins the WDC) or the silver lining (when the WDC is won elsewhere).

The WDC is for the driver and fans following that driver from team to team. The WCC is for every team member that has contributed to the title and for every fan of the team who stick by them for better or worse year after year.

Anyway, Luca, has been really clear about this in the above article.

[Mayur]

Originally posted by Sneezy


The WDC is for the driver and fans following that driver from team to team. The WCC is for every team member that has contributed to the title and for every fan of the team who stick by them for better or worse year after year.

Anyway, Luca, has been really clear about this in the above article.

I think Luca mentioned 8th title rather than 7th because 8 > 7.

[mach4]

Originally posted by jcbc3
In order to seperate drivers with equal points the easiest way is to look at it as a number with the wins before the decimal point and then the rest of the places in order afterwards.

So 1 win, 1 second and two thirds (=30 points) would be exprerssed as 1.1200000.
Another driver with one win, one second, a third and two sixths (=30 points) would be expressed as 1.1100200.

And highest number wins. Using that logic the position is:

Hamilton:
3.110100001001
Massa:
3.110100000001
Räikkönen:
2.211000110000

Meaning Hamilton leads on account of his 10th place in France

(works for me )

How would they be separated if Hamilton didn't have that 10th place?

[noikeee]

Originally posted by jcbc3
In order to seperate drivers with equal points the easiest way is to look at it as a number with the wins before the decimal point and then the rest of the places in order afterwards.

So 1 win, 1 second and two thirds (=30 points) would be exprerssed as 1.1200000.
Another driver with one win, one second, a third and two sixths (=30 points) would be expressed as 1.1100200.

And highest number wins. Using that logic the position is:

Hamilton:
3.110100001001
Massa:
3.110100000001
Räikkönen:
2.211000110000

Meaning Hamilton leads on account of his 10th place in France

(works for me )

That's an unnecessary mathematical complication on the AQUA system.

[turin]

Originally posted by paranoik0


That's an unnecessary mathematical complication on the AQUA system.

Far from it, because it is used only to differentiate drivers tied in points with the current system . It is not meant to be used in any way with the AQUA system.

And is pretty neat too.

[pottiella]

its the WCC that matters more to ALL teams. That's why Alonso was frustrated in 2006 when Renault was allowing Fisi to still fight Alonso for position to get maximum points while Schumi was given a free pass every time against Massa - so to the drivers they think about the WDC first and then WCC (like Alonso did in 2005, and Schumi did in 2006), but Renault were clearly prioritiing WCC.

Similarly, McLaren were always prioritising the WCC last year (and every year...remember 2005 where Kimi had to fight Montoya even in the Bazilian GP at the cusp of losing the WDC to Alonso..and lost as a result) and so didn't seem to care much about which of their two drivers was likely to bring home the WDC, as long as they were getting 1-2s. The more the two drivers fought, the more likely McLaren were going to get a 1-2 either way.

Anyway, I reckon after Luca's comments, we'll either see Ferrari dominance in the next few races, or one of the two drivers is going to start getting a gentle shove closer to the door by the Italian GP (most likely massa)

[Mayur]

Originally posted by pottiella
its the WCC that matters more to ALL teams. That's why Alonso was frustrated in 2006 when Renault was allowing Fisi to still fight Alonso for position to get maximum points while Schumi was given a free pass every time against Massa - so to the drivers they think about the WDC first and then WCC (like Alonso did in 2005, and Schumi did in 2006), but Renault were clearly prioritiing WCC.

Similarly, McLaren were always prioritising the WCC last year (and every year...remember 2005 where Kimi had to fight Montoya even in the Bazilian GP at the cusp of losing the WDC to Alonso..and lost as a result) and so didn't seem to care much about which of their two drivers was likely to bring home the WDC, as long as they were getting 1-2s. The more the two drivers fought, the more likely McLaren were going to get a 1-2 either way.

Anyway, I reckon after Luca's comments, we'll either see Ferrari dominance in the next few races, or one of the two drivers is going to start getting a gentle shove closer to the door by the Italian GP (most likely massa)

Err...Why was Schumi given a free pass when its the WCC that mattered?

[pottiella]

Originally posted by Mayur


Err...Why was Schumi given a free pass when its the WCC that mattered?

err...because that was what always happened with Schumi? He did have the whole no1 status written into his contract, AND at that point Massa had vowed to help Schumi with the driivers title (its easy to forget how intesnse the drivers title fight was at that point, and Massa was in awe of Schumi). Even then, I was trying to demonstrate that it was Renault at that point (and I'm a Renault fan) who were thinking of the WCC above the WDC, hence prompting Alonso to say that some in the team didnt want him to win the WDC and take the no1 to McLaren. He wasn't wrong...

For Ferrari when schumi was around it was clean cut; Schumi must always be ahead if it is possible to do so...no questions asked. Now its not like that in Ferrari, their priority is getting a red car win regardless, and then decide further down which driver to back when the WCC is in reach.

[Mayur]

Originally posted by pottiella


err...because that was what always happened with Schumi? He did have the whole no1 status written into his contract, AND at that point Massa had vowed to help Schumi with the driivers title (its easy to forget how intesnse the drivers title fight was at that point, and Massa was in awe of Schumi). Even then, I was trying to demonstrate that it was Renault at that point (and I'm a Renault fan) who were thinking of the WCC above the WDC, hence prompting Alonso to say that some in the team didnt want him to win the WDC and take the no1 to McLaren. He wasn't wrong...

For Ferrari when schumi was around it was clean cut; Schumi must always be ahead if it is possible to do so...no questions asked. Now its not like that in Ferrari, their priority is getting a red car win regardless, and then decide further down which driver to back when the WCC is in reach.

OK, you said the WCC mattered more to all teams and almost immediately went on to say that Schumi was given a free pass. I take it that you mean the WDC mattered more to Ferrari in the Schumi days

[Josta]

Originally posted by mach4
How would they be separated if Hamilton didn't have that 10th place?

If at the end of the season, 2 or more drivers cannot be separated by points or places, it would be up to Max to decide who wins. Reg 7.2.

If two or more constructors or drivers finish the season with the same number of points, the higher place
in the Championship (in either case) shall be awarded to :
a) the holder of the greatest number of first places,
b) if the number of first places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of second places,
c) if the number of second places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of third places and so
on until a winner emerges.
if this procedure fails to produce a result, the FIA will nominate the winner according to such criteria as it thinks fit.

[qvn]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


The bullshit on this BB is incredible...

The WCC is an afterthought, not important.
Nothing compares to a driver winning a WDC for Ferrari fans, atleast in Italy.

How then do you explain 21 years of pain...Ferrari won WCC in 1982/83/99, yet the goal was WDC.

Yes. I remember how sad Tifosi and Ferrari was in 1999 when they won WCC but failed to win WDC. Irvine said after that season that WCC is just a consolidation after seeing how Tifosi reacted after Ferrari won WCC but not WDC.

[qvn]

Originally posted by pottiella
[B]

He did have the whole no1 status written into his contract/B]

Can you show us MS`s contract?

This question was asked so many times and never have any answer. Why? because it is purely speculation.


Luca di Montezemolo said that MS earned his No.1 because he was always fastest driver. But who cares? Many forummers here thought they know about Ferrari better than LdM.

[Schuperman]

Originally posted by pottiella
its the WCC that matters more to ALL teams. That's why Alonso was frustrated in 2006 when Renault was allowing Fisi to still fight Alonso for position to get maximum points while Schumi was given a free pass every time against Massa - so to the drivers they think about the WDC first and then WCC (like Alonso did in 2005, and Schumi did in 2006), but Renault were clearly prioritiing WCC.

Can you please give three cases, where Schumi had received free passes from Massa, allowing Schumi to gain extra points than him? Either in the pitsops or race tracks. IF you can't give three examples, please give one example.

What I remember, Schumi had to queue a couple of times behind Massa in the pitstops which caused Schumi lost his track position. IF Schumi was really no. 1 driver, do you think no. 1 should be treated like this?

No. 1 status doesn't give you right to be faster than your teammate. The problem for Kimi now, once hyped by many of his fans as the fastest driver, is not any faster than Massa. In fact, Massa is currently slightly faster in quals. IF Luca words are to be believed, no. 1 status is earned through timesheet.

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by paranoik0


That's an unnecessary mathematical complication on the AQUA system.

It's not an alternative to any system. AQUA or otherwise. It's just an easy way to visualise who's in front of the WDC at the moment.

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by turin


Far from it, because it is used only to differentiate drivers tied in points with the current system . It is not meant to be used in any way with the AQUA system.

And is pretty neat too.

oops, thank you.


forgot to add. I'm an accountant by trade. I need to express myself through numbers

[Garagiste]

Do you really think he'd have said anything different had they won the WDC and lost the WCC in 1999?
No, me neither so it proves nada. The same thing is often spouted about the Williams team, and is nonsense according to Head, who attributed it to somebody misquoting Frank from years back.
Of course all teams want to win both, but the big prize is the WDC.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Sneezy
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68977

Luca.



This obviously relates to the WCC and not the WDC. This can obviously be traced back to 1999 when Ferrari won their first WCC since 1983, but Mika won the WDC. If they infact win the WCC this year it will be the 8th title in ten years. It will only be the 7th WDC in that timespan.



Ferrari are not leading the WDC, Lewis is. But Ferrari are leading the WCC. The bottom line, Luca, is obviously talking about the WCC.

This should once and for all close the never-ending debate of what still matters the most to Ferrari. That's how the tifosi feel even though few outside can understand it.

WDC is what counts but with WCC they have nicer number so it looks better to talk about it that's all.

[Enzoluis]

Originally posted by qvn


Yes. I remember how sad Tifosi and Ferrari was in 1999 when they won WCC but failed to win WDC. Irvine said after that season that WCC is just a consolidation after seeing how Tifosi reacted after Ferrari won WCC but not WDC.

Ferrari fans, are fans of the team no matter wich driver is on it. We enjoy to see a red car leading a race. For us F1 is race of cars, drivers is one important part of the team but the reason for this sport. If you want races of drivers make a one car series, not F1.
In 1999 we were pissed off how we lose the WDC that we could win. But I always was happy with that WCC and I never count 21 years of pain but 15.

[SevenTwoSeven]

Originally posted by Josta


If at the end of the season, 2 or more drivers cannot be separated by points or places, it would be up to Max to decide who wins. Reg 7.2.

If two or more constructors or drivers finish the season with the same number of points, the higher place
in the Championship (in either case) shall be awarded to :
a) the holder of the greatest number of first places,
b) if the number of first places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of second places,
c) if the number of second places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of third places and so
on until a winner emerges.
if this procedure fails to produce a result, the FIA will nominate the winner according to such criteria as it thinks fit.

Interesting. Does anyone know what this criteria is? Im guessing:-

[list=a]
[*]If any of the top two drivers drive silver cars, then the other driver shall be declared the winner
[*]If one of the top two drivers drives a McLaren, then the other driver shall be declared the winner
[*]In the unlikley occourance that both the top two drivers drive both silver cars and/or are McLarens, the result shall be null and void and be awarded to the third placed driver regardless
[/list=a]

Joking aside, i guess theres no past occourence of this 'criteria' not that i can think of anyway. Any ideas?

[Timstr11]

Ferrari reportedly received US$ 68.9 mil last year from FOM as winner of the WCC.

Nuff said...

Pointless discussion whether the WCC matters or not. Clearly, it does.
Are you guys forgetting bills need to be paid.

[Chiara]

Not meaning to be greedy but we want both actually ;) one without the other is not entirely satisfactory

[Perigee]

All teams (rightly imo) claim the WCC is more important to them. For drivers it is obviously the WDC that is their priority. I don't think Ferrari are special in this regard.

[Dolph]

Originally posted by Sneezy
This should once and for all close the never-ending debate of what still matters the most to Ferrari. That's how the tifosi feel even though few outside can understand it.

I think in your narrow mindedness you have completely misled yourself. Luca is just saying it the way it sounds better. If Kimi was leading the championship and McLaren leading the constructors championship then he would still say "we are leading the championship". If Ferrari had won more WDC than WCC during last ten years then he would say that number, as that is the bigger number.

Don't confuse your lack of imagination with ultimate proof.

[Dolph]

Originally posted by SevenTwoSeven
Joking aside, i guess theres no past occourence of this 'criteria' not that i can think of anyway. Any ideas?

I think it will come down to such obvious things as:

1) Pole positions
2) Fastest Laps
3) Most laps lead
4) Most cars overtaken

by this time you must have a difference already. Once in two million years maybe you don't. Let's not worry about that

[giacomo]

I'm quite sure that Montezemolo wants the WDC as well.

[Sneezy]

Originally posted by giacomo
I'm quite sure that Montezemolo wants the WDC as well.

I'm quite sure of that as well.

But it's rather obvious what he wants the most. It's good to know the most important aspect hasn't change even though Enzo has been gone for 20 years (August 14 this year).

[Dolph]

Originally posted by Sneezy


I'm quite sure of that as well.

But it's rather obvious what he wants the most. It's good to know the most important aspect hasn't change even though Enzo has been gone for 20 years (August 14 this year).

Did you read a single reply that was written in this thread!?!? The majority thinks you are hallucinating.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by SevenTwoSeven

Joking aside, i guess theres no past occourence of this 'criteria' not that i can think of anyway. Any ideas?

There have been joint champions in sportscar racing. I am guessing that the only fair thing to do would be to declare a draw.

Incidentally, Derek Bell once beat Hans-Joachim Stuck to the world sportscar title because his best non-points finish of 11th was better than Stuck's 16th. (The one race where they didn't drive together.)

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by Perigee
All teams (rightly imo) claim the WCC is more important to them. For drivers it is obviously the WDC that is their priority. I don't think Ferrari are special in this regard.

If there is one team special in this regard it must be Williams. If there is one team known for giving more priority to the WCC is is Willimas because that reflects more on the strength of the team as a whole.
Can remnember haveing read a line by Frank Williams who loved it to see his team win WCC's with a new driver each and every year because that would approbve the team being the dominant and most important factor.


I think to some extend he is right. We still remember Williams as a powerhouse in the mid 80's with Honda engines despite loosing out on the 86 WDC. Or in the mid 90's with renault power when the had a number of titles yet no driver winning two tiltes.
But Brabham in the early eighties on the other hand is not remembered as a powerhouse but primarily because of Piquet-Murray working well and everything else within/among Brabham seemed to be of no importance to Bernie and/or who-ever related with Brabham..

Henri

[qvn]

Originally posted by Enzoluis


Ferrari fans, are fans of the team no matter wich driver is on it. We enjoy to see a red car leading a race. For us F1 is race of cars, drivers is one important part of the team but the reason for this sport. If you want races of drivers make a one car series, not F1.
In 1999 we were pissed off how we lose the WDC that we could win. But I always was happy with that WCC and I never count 21 years of pain but 15.

But WDC is most prestigeous prize that a team could get. WDC is one alone put a number 1 in a team's car.
And I never heard about 15 years of pain but only 21 years of pain of Ferrari.

[rye&ginger]

Originally posted by Anomnader

I think that should be changed to F1 fans

Tifosi are only Ferrari fans that have decided to dub themselves with a name, nothing more, nothing less

What ignorance. Look up the word or learn how to be sarcastic.

[Laffite]

I think that the importance of WCC is related to the Scuderia drivers "quality" in a given year.

For instance, WCC in 1983 was very, very important...

[Gilles12]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


The bullshit on this BB is incredible...

The WCC is an afterthought, not important.
Nothing compares to a driver winning a WDC for Ferrari fans, atleast in Italy.

How then do you explain 21 years of pain...Ferrari won WCC in 1982/83/99, yet the goal was WDC.

Why do you have "titles: 15" as the top most line in your sig?

[santori]

I think there was a touring car championship which had joint champions. Was it a touring car championship? In the late nineties, I think. It's in one of my old Autosports, but I don't know which one.

Two team-mates had the same points, victories, pole positions, everything except fastest laps, and it was thought it wouldn't be fair to separate them based on that.

[Italiano Tifoso]

I think an important aspect has been overlooked.

F1 for Ferrari is their only marketing medium, they spend $0 on advertising their brand anywhere in the world. F1 is effectively their marketing platform and it is only a marketing platform for them if they win.

Yes there are other teams who are in F1 to build brand awareness but all these manufacturers also have peripheral advertising strategies and budgets.

Ferrari is alone in relying on their on track performance on Sunday to drive their car sales on Monday through Friday.

As Enzo said, "win on Sunday, sell on Monday."

This is why the WCC is so important to Luca, after all he is the president of Ferrari as a group not just the F1 team. Winning titles sells cars, just look at the growth in sales during the Schumacher era; this was also assisted to a new found focus on reliability and quality never before seen at Ferrari which started with the F355.

[sensible]

Originally posted by Schuperman


Can you please give three cases, where Schumi had received free passes from Massa, allowing Schumi to gain extra points than him? Either in the pitsops or race tracks. IF you can't give three examples, please give one example.

What I remember, Schumi had to queue a couple of times behind Massa in the pitstops which caused Schumi lost his track position. IF Schumi was really no. 1 driver, do you think no. 1 should be treated like this?

No. 1 status doesn't give you right to be faster than your teammate. The problem for Kimi now, once hyped by many of his fans as the fastest driver, is not any faster than Massa. In fact, Massa is currently slightly faster in quals. IF Luca words are to be believed, no. 1 status is earned through timesheet.

Yes, but since when did what actually happened have any bearing on the hate-filled agendas of some people around here. ****, MS had such an obvious free pass that he actually finished directly behind Massa. Ooops.