46 replies to this topic

[Flat Black]

A hard crash and the scrapyard are the fate of many a racing car. Others more fortunate wind up in museums. And others, I suppose, are dismantled and their parts used to build or repair more racing cars.

But what of those that are not demolished on track, housed in museums, or parted out? Are there junkyards around the globe filled with perfectly good racing cars, some of which may have an illustrious history? If so, reclamation and refurbishment would seem a valuable service to auto racing history.

[Sharman]

I keep looking under stones but I haven't been lucky yet. If you find any please let me know, I raised same question about Monoposto Register Register cars

[rbm]

our 1948 Cooper 500 F3 was found in a scrapyard, it had done its service racing and hill climbing in the UK then on too Kenya to race and hill climb, I guess it had become obsolete and was towed to the scrapyard and dumped - the valuable alloy bits were scavanged and the rest just sat baking in the sun.



car on the right is our Cooper in as found condition.

[stuartbrs]

Many many years ago I remember reading an article in one of Dads Classic and sports car magazines on a Ferrari 250TR that had basically been dug up from a field... the before shots were of twisted rusty bits of steel...scrap metal. The after shots were of a perfect 250TR.. and this subject gets debated here every so often.. recreation or original car??... From memory, and it was the 80`s, the block was dug up to..

A friend of mine used to fire air pelletts as a kid into a rusting Escort hulk in their back paddock, it was a Lotus Escort...or is it Escort Lotus??

There will always be good cars rusting away somewhere I guess.

[Sharman]

Stuartbrs
I have never heard of an Escort Lotus or a Lotus Escort, Cortina yes, RS Escorts yes but.....

[2F-001]

Assuming it wasn't some custom hybrid, I was imagining a Mk1 Twin Cam... I always imagined the motor in that was, as least, Lotus-derived or inspired.

[stuartbrs]

http://www.motorbase...cle/by-id/1305/

This one?

It was definately Lotus.. as I remember showing him a picture of an Esprit, on an unrelated story, when he told me "Lotus!!!".. It may have just been nothing more than a rusting normal Escort.. but still, knowing where he lived, they would have had no idea...

[stuartbrs]

I had a genuine Mini Copper S body shell sitting in my shed for about 10 years.. all the holes in the right places, pedigree was undeniable, but no chassis plate, and it was, well, ronnied... I was so close to getting an imported British Cooper S with Sliding Windows, albeit with a fruited body shell...I was a day away from the purchase. Had I combined the two, was it a Cooper S?? Mechanically yes... In fact, all the parts would have said Cooper S.. Could I have sold it as one? Hmmmmm.. in the end I sold the body for $200 so I could park the Porsche in the Shed.

The Mini in my Avataar is sitting in my shed also, it was made as a Minimatic... and I bought it COMPLETE.. I was young, and sold the engine and gearbox to a guy building a buggy, then built it up as so many Mini`s.. worked 1100, twin SU`s.. Cooper badges etc.. will never sell it... but would it have the same pedigree as the car I wanted to build from all the Cooper S bits.?.. Its such a grey area with cars like that. Had I restored her as a Minimatic, it would be worth what ever someone is willing to pay for that ( rare but crap ).. as a worked Mini, itsw orth whatever someone is willing to pay..

Old racing cars can be just that, old and junk... but there are price points... an Old Mini is an old Mini, unless its won Monte Carlo or Bathurst.. a Cooper S is worth a small fortune if it really is one.. an old Fondmetal that won nothing is a piece of ****.. unless you havent driven an F1 car before.. its all about finding the right buyer..

[f1steveuk]

As has been discussed elsewhere, there's an entire land speed car, with two 37 litre engines waiting to be recovered from a rubbish tip

[alansart]

I'm sure there's 100's of old racers sitting in barns, garages or sheds where the owners have left them until they can get the time and money to get them going again.

My old Formula Ford rolling chassis is in a barn in Cheshire, the gearbox is in my garage about 6 feet away and the engine has been in my brother in laws garage for over 2 years, in bits, awaiting a rebuild.

One thing I'm sure will change over time is that modern carbon fibre cars will just disappear as your average racer won't be able to rebuild them the same way as spaceframe or alli monocoque cars.

[Oversteer1]

StuartBRS:

Tell us how you really feel!! Good post!


Mark

[Flat Black]

I'm curious, roughly how many auto racing museums exist in the UK?

In the US, there is the Unser Museum in Albuquerque, the Indy Museum, and at least a couple of major museums down south. One in Daytona, perhaps.

[alansart]

Originally posted by Flat Black
I'm curious, roughly how many auto racing museums exist in the UK?

Quite a few.

For F1 the Donington Collection is superb.


The National Motor Museum at Beaulieu
http://www.beaulieu.co.uk/motormuseum

plus lots of smaller ones spread around the country.

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by Flat Black
A hard crash and the scrapyard are the fate of many a racing car. Others more fortunate wind up in museums. And others, I suppose, are dismantled and their parts used to build or repair more racing cars.

But what of those that are not demolished on track, housed in museums, or parted out? Are there junkyards around the globe filled with perfectly good racing cars, some of which may have an illustrious history? If so, reclamation and refurbishment would seem a valuable service to auto racing history.

I would have thought it was fairly common knowledge: A Historic Racing group is created for them, they go to astronomical values and then replicas are built---'s obvious innit ?

[Lotus11Register]

Occasionally a sentimental car buff will - secretly - keep an old race car in the garage either for its beauty or the memories it holds. There is often the hope that, with some time and energy, the thing can be brought to life again and a bit of the owner's youth restored. Often he never sees this happen, and a widow or a nephew finally lets the world in to take a look. It may sound like a fable but really, quite a few known classics and probably a lot of unknown ones are still preserved this way. (And if you can't afford the car please try to collect the stories.)

Thirty years ago, while standing at the parts counter at Monaco Motors, a Renault dealer in Miami Florida, I looked up to see a complete Formula 2 Gordini nestled in the rafters. It took my breath away, because aside from the dust it was preserved just the way it had been when Robert Manzon (IIRC) last climbed out if it in the early 1950s. The owner, a Frenchman, calmly told me all about the history, adding he would someday take it to the vintage races at Watkins Glen. I wonder if Andre' ever did.

[f1steveuk]

Is the De Tomaso 505, that lived on top of the toilet block at the factory for years restored yet, I believe that took some time to prise it out of the factory..............

[Thundersports]

There are few left to rot in barns and sheds, there is a very rare late 70's F1 car about 20 yards from my desk where I work (not the same building however) which is used as a coffee table and somewhere to dump paperwork.

[HistoricMustang]

Petty Enterprises (and others) simply buried their's in the back yard.

I will try to locate a photograph of the Petty cemetery.

Henry

[ralt12]

There is a site ( http://www.f1carstoday.net/ ) that is attempting to locate the whereabouts of older chassis. It's a daunting task; some marques are barely touched, and others more than half of the chassis are identified.

[Peter Leversedge]

There are two "old racing cars" sitting in a corner of my home based workshop
[1] 1949 Ford V8 Special [ K8 type car ]
[2] 1986 Ozcar Sprint Car [ some parts missing at present ]

The Ford Special is "world famous" in the South Island of NZ
The Ozcar, built by Lee Ozborne was raced in the US by "Indy" Andy Hillenburg and Jeff Gordon before coming to NZ

[Tom Glowacki]

There's a body of evidence proving that some of them go off somewhere to reproduce.

[Flat Black]

If a stock car and an open-wheeler mate, is the offspring capable of reproducing?

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
Is the De Tomaso 505, that lived on top of the toilet block at the factory for years restored yet, I believe that took some time to prise it out of the factory..............

Question answered on the Goodwood FoS 2008 thread, looking very shiney now!

[oldclassiccar]

I once was told the story of a Lotus XI sat in a Manchester scrapyard, under a mountain of old tyres, probably just another urban legend (this was maybe 15 years ago) but it did make me wonder. A few enquiries yielded no firm leads so that was that.

Rick

[MPea3]

In the US I'm thinking that many cars would be picked apart for their pieces with whatever is outdated or broken being cast aside as junk. Pieces left out wouldn't last long in the weather. There's a place near me called "Old Car City" which is an antique car salvage yard, and they have plenty of stuff which is so rusted out that they can't even identify it any more. Also remember that here in the States cars were often built and owned by individuals, so cars which remained intact after their time was over would usually be a family affair over time. A good example of that would be the Gober Sosbee Daytona car which is - I believe - still owned and displayed by the Sosebee family. Also, ask member Steve L about the history of his midget.

Every once in a while someone has the vision to keep stuff for the future. Years ago I stumbled across a gentleman in Central Pennsylvania who had a barn FULL of old midgets, big cars and other stuff. He knew exactly where they were going though, and it eventually did, being distributed between family and a local museum.

For the most part however, the stuff just wasn't worth keeping.

[John Bicht]

Sometimes old race cars proliferate. When Lotus Components closed there were 3 Lotus 69 FF's in the U.S. I owned one of them which I sold when I moved to England in 1972. There are now 13 of them listed in the U.S. I wonder how many are genuine.

I have heard the same comments about Lotus 23's.

[HistoricMustang]

http://www.thunderpl...t34/project.htm

http://marksavory.co...86am/index.html

Henry

[bradbury west]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stuartbrs
[B]a Ferrari 250TR that had basically been dug up from a field... the before shots were of twisted rusty bits of steel...scrap metal. The after shots were of a perfect 250TR.. QUOTE]
Sounds rather like the renovation of the burned out then buried wreck which Rodney Felton restored
Roger Lund

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by John Bicht
Sometimes old race cars proliferate. When Lotus Components closed there were 3 Lotus 69 FF's in the U.S. I owned one of them which I sold when I moved to England in 1972. There are now 13 of them listed in the U.S. I wonder how many are genuine.

I have heard the same comments about Lotus 23's.

At one stage there were a lot of Lotus 69 FFs in Britain now there are hardly any.

[Glengavel]

So what are the most famous (or infamous) 'missing' racing cars? (I'm talking about Grand Prix/Indy/Le Mans winners, just to keep it simple).

[f1steveuk]

Steve MacQueens Porsche 917, vanished from his collection, and is now...........................?

[rdmotorsport]

my last two ended in the wall at Zolder and Nazareth!

Rodney Dodson

[MPea3]

Originally posted by John Bicht
Sometimes old race cars proliferate. When Lotus Components closed there were 3 Lotus 69 FF's in the U.S. I owned one of them which I sold when I moved to England in 1972. There are now 13 of them listed in the U.S. I wonder how many are genuine.

I have heard the same comments about Lotus 23's.

It's not just race cars, as the same holds true in the art/antique/music business. We have a saying that Domenico Montagnana was the finest cello maker ever. He made about 700 cellos and over 1200 of them still exist to this day.

[Tweddell]

look at this,
http://www.currypotp.../LostNFound.htm

very nice and thrilling story and lots of pictures of the fate of a well known race-car.

[RTH]

Fascinating story, motor racing should be like this today.

[Lee Nicolle]

I am involved in classic speedway and so many cars have been found rusting in dumps, in paddocks, behind peoples sheds etc. Most have had the good bits removed and are then adbandoned.
Mine a Supermodified/ Sprintcar was found in better cond than most but less motor, transmission etc but was a roller and largely as last raced. Is resting at the moment after a decent crash. Anyone got an Austin A90 or Morris J van diff?
Since its restoration as a classic it has done more shows than it did in its prime!! I have had it 15 years and it was originally restored 5 or 6 years before. It was built in 1968
Though recently a shed find of a complete car, early 70s, from its original owner, complete with the dirt from its last race in the early 90s. It probably would have started with some tinkering. Has been restored and being used and has been driven by the previous owner.
Several were found in dumps, one significant car seemed to be spread all over the country, chassis, body in one state, the diff a 1000 miles away etc,is now in regular use with the original owner from the late 60s.
The worse thing ofcourse if you use them [asthey should be] the parts get damn hard to find as they get older. Stuff that even 10 years ago was easy to find is non existent now.In my case 50s and 60s stuff so I would hate to be playing with somethig older.
Also the expertise, knowledge and interest tend to wane as cars get older and the people that built, crewed, and watched these cars get old and die off. I have seen restorations of allsorts of cars, speedway, circuit, road cars that are so far from what was original it is laughable by well meaning people who were not around in the era. So much ofcourse is better engineered as the equipment, facilities and money is all better in these times.
And most old racecars have been modified, upgraded as they go through there service life and owners tastes, rule changes and the never ending need for speed and often end up like grandpas axe. [Only had 3 new heads and 6 handles!]

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
Steve MacQueens Porsche 917, vanished from his collection, and is now...........................?

Sold on from Richard Attwood as his superannuanuation for one million pounds in 2000??

[giffo]

Lee Nicolle

I have seen restorations of allsorts of cars, speedway, circuit, road cars that are so far from what was original it is laughable by well meaning people who were not around in the era. So much of course is better engineered as the equipment, facilities and money is all better in these times.

True but from the perspective of someone who never lived it, It becomes very hard to get it exactly right & you can be off by just a bit. Plus your statement about parts. Some are that close you can barely tell the difference anyway. Should it matter if that difference is the car being on the track or not being there?
I know from my experience when I rebuilt the chassis on my open wheeler I could have replaced certain sections of the chassis tubing & probably even improved it in areas. I chose to leave these sections complete with all their war wounds. To be a “so called concourse” car this would have needed to be fixed but I felt that it was these areas are what gave the car its "history & identity". The roll hoop however was completely replaced for obvious reasons

[Catalina Park]

I have an old racing car in my shed. I can't use it as a Historic until I modify it from the original spec that it was raced in to some other later spec that it never was and never raced in. Thanks CAMS!

[Mal9444]

What ever happened (is happening) to the famous racing car famously covered by a tarpaulin under the trees between the ramshackle sheds at Jenk's place? As featured on TV (well, MFQ) by DCN.

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


Sold on from Richard Attwood as his superannuanuation for one million pounds in 2000??

From I've been told, not the same car. Steve Wright once told me it sort of vanished overnight, within days of MacQueen's passing. Beki Adams (ex Top Gear etc etc) went looking for it as well, and all the clues pointed the opposite direction to the car Attwood had/has.

[Tweddell]

I have an old racing car in my shed. I can't use it as a Historic until I modify it from the original spec that it was raced in to some other later spec that it never was and never raced in.

oh yes, that is the paradoxical situation of today. i had the same problem with my 68 escort twin cam , i found some years ago in a shed , having very nice history, and decided to keep it as it was raced originally and not pervert the things to completly unhistoric changings, which were demanded !!!!!. so it was not allowed to race, but all the twin cam fakes and rediculous changed "historic-racing"cars were going on the track and do races, which were never run this way.
poor times for true historic cars!!!!!

[richie]

"Another interesting project of similar concept to the Landar was the Aurora-BMC powered by a 1150cc BMC engine, only 2 ft. 5in. high and said to be capable of 135mph. It was built for Trevor Taylor and Anita Taylor to race".

A friend of mine has this 1960's Aurora sports car in bits languishing in his garage.

I found a picture of John Wales driving the Aurora behind Les Aylott's Lotus 11 t/c, which from memory was phenomenally successful sports car showing a somewhat bent body. Is there a record of how many races the Lotus won?

[bradbury west]

[i]Originally posted by Tweddell
oh yes, that is the paradoxical situation of today. i had the same problem with my 68 escort twin cam , i found some years ago in a shed , having very nice history, and decided to keep it as it was raced originally and not pervert the things to completly unhistoric changings, ]

I had just the same problem with my round tube Ginetta G4. Unused and stored since 1973 when the crank on the 1100 Holbay broke. I was told I could run at 1000cc or 1500cc, but I could not race with original spec Minilites, but had to use narrower steel rims, which meant machining the hubs to take longer studs to take spacers to stop the new rims fouling the calipers etc, plus had to run a single standard 28/32 Weber (1500cc) as on the standard prod saloon from which the engine came, the original 1965 twin Webers apparently being not correct,.. etc etc. same with a GT gearbox. All so that it would not upset the 14 Elans - as if was likely to trouble the prize givers. The Elans btw, ran at anything up to 135bhp as standard cars I was told....
I recall at the time that ex BMC works driver Peter Riley was complaining strongly about Healeys with over width rims and the wrong offset from period etc, apart from ludicrous engine mods.
Roger Lund

[Lee Nicolle]

To Griffo. Trying to keep the cars basically as they were is paramount otherwise they are just another old racecar with no period character. Most end up better engineered which is ok for the most part but when you use major components that are not period it kinds of defeats the purpose.
Then ofcourse there is pre 65 Sports sedans [Group N] which is dominated by cars that never raced in the class originally which also seem to get away with components they did not use in 64 when manufactured.
As fo NC it is purely a lot of hotrods that never raced in that form anywhere though original log booked cars can run which were built to considerably different rules [Improved Touring]. Ofcourse those cars are too rare and expensive to race with other cars. Wouldnt it be great to see all David Bawdens collection plus the Camaro etc let loose in anger! But the cars are really to rare and valuable for that, at least they are proper working cars for serious display runs.There is a couple of exceptions, notably Des Wall in Geoghans Mustang. And the Biante cars are another story again. Entertaining but are not Historic!
This ofcourse happens world wide in class after class. Or as has been pointed out must run in a spec that they never raced in.

[eldougo]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
I have an old racing car in my shed. I can't use it as a Historic until I modify it from the original spec that it was raced in to some other later spec that it never was and never raced in. Thanks CAMS!

Be carefull of what you say about CAMS they Monitor this site

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by eldougo


Be carefull of what you say about CAMS they Monitor this site

Oh in that case, CAMS is a bunch of robbing pricks that will never, ever get any more money from me.