127 replies to this topic

[Fat Boy]

OK Previously I've said that I don't care for some of Senna's driving techniques. Here's what I'm talking about.

You have to listen closely to the engine note, but he takes several jabs at the throttle prior to the apex of slow corners. In particular, at Monaco, the tight right, left, right, right of Mirabeau, Loews, and Portier.

Watch from seconds 36-54. He does it in every corner.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

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Here's the Suzuka vid in the NSX where you can see his feet to get an idea of what it looks like. Notice how similar it sounds to what he does in the F-1 car. This was not necessarily a compensation for any one car's handling traits, this was something he did in every car that I'm aware of.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

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This shows the same thing from 52-1:08. This is one of the famous pole laps of his, but unlike most versions it doesn't have the awful music, it just has some Scottish guy jabbering away. He only takes one or 2 jabs at Mirabeau, probably due to locking the RF, but at Loews he probably takes 5 or 6 jabs starting right at turn-in and eventually gets a big loose at corner exit.



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Now take a look at his contemporary, Prost. From seconds 48-1:08 he's going through the same complex. Keep in mind this is with the Renault Turbo. A pipey thing if there ever was one. Very smooth on the throttle and very smooth on the steering.



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Here's a look at Schumacher through the same complex Seconds 7 to 24 give us an idea of his technique. Keep in mind he's got every wizzy electronic bit under the sun as opposed to the previous vids, but his inputs are very similar to Prost and quite unlike Senna. Listen the engine note. You only hear one throttle application and it's never early in the corner.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

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Throttle jabs early in the corner are not anything to do with controlling wheelspin. The driver isn't even to the apex and so he has no hope of going to gas at this point. I think it might be brought over from karting where drivers will often stab the throttle to reduce rear wheel lock up on a direct drive kart. Having said that, Prost and Schumacher were no strangers to karting, and they didn't do it.

I generally find that when a driver is doing this he hasn't carried enough speed into the corner and in a effort to keep mid-corner speed up, he'll stab the throttle a few times. Generally speaking, a driver isn't carrying enough speed into the corner because the car is entry loose, although I don't really see that in Senna's F-1 car. It creates a lot of confusion, because jabbing the throttle mid-corner will make the car understeer by the long. load transfer and diff locking that it inevitably causes. It is possible to get the snap loose like Senna gets at Loews, but that is a loose caused by excessive understeer. When the front finally unhinges the rear, it's makes a big slide. Only a very inexperienced driver would call that a 'loose' condition. Anyhow, our 'jabbing the throttle mid-corner' driver will often come in complaining of understeer when the root cause is an oversteer that is very early in the corner which doesn't allow him to carry enough entry speed. The engineer follows what the driver says and we go slower. The driver, who is now _very_ loose on entry is slower across the apex and jabbing the throttle even more. He reports more understeer. Head-scratching ensues.

It's a situation I've been in several times, and one that's tough to get out of. I don't know how much data Senna had to look at and if he spent much time looking at it even if he had it. He was at the very beginning of the data era, and may very well have left the squiggly lines to the engineers. I can tell you that the overactive throttle work hurt car balance, laptime, tire life, and fuel economy. Some may argue that if he was on pole, what does it matter? There's some validity to that, but there are 3 things not related to ultimate lap time that will effect the outcome of the race. They all need to be a factor.

The point of this post is not to condemn Senna or to ridicule him compared to other drivers. The point is that even someone who was blindingly fast has room for improvement. If someone of Senna's caliber has room for driving improvement, what does that say about the rest of us?

[OfficeLinebacker]

Wow. I will let the more accomplished racers field this one. In a nutshell:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Heel-and-toe

[Ross Stonefeld]

But he's blipping while in his final cornering gears. Gordito is talking about the blipblipblip sounds mid-corner, not the YEAAARRNN you get under braking.

[OfficeLinebacker]

I see he does some throttle stabbing that is not related to downshifting.

I have a guess as to that but I'm much less qualified to comment on that.

[Kalmake]

Old thread: Senna throttle technique

[Engineguy]

I'm not a race driver; just some thoughts...

"Jabs" might be too strong a word... could he just be modulating the power? Same way hands on the steering wheel make many rapid twitches experimenting to find the limit or right amount of correction. Like you mentioned about compensating for not entering fast enough, perhaps even though he DID enter fast enough, he's still searching for a little more... everyone modulates the throttle I assume... he's just doing at a higher frequency rate? Sorta the same thing as the rapid chatter of ABS brakes... I would think you can stay closer to the absolute limit if you correct throttle position five times as often as the guy that looks smooth.

I'm thinking of a sprint car running sideways on dirt, held at the limit (the bigger magnitudes making visualization easier). In the course of a turn, you could make 30 steering corrections and 5 throttle corrections, or you could make 5 steering corrections and 30 throttle corrections. Both means to the same end... and Senna's style closer to the latter.

Or maybe his foot's just twitchy, impatient and anxious to get back on the power.
.

[imaginesix]

Maybe he had Parkinson's.

[MikeTekRacing]

watch this
herbert explains senna's technique too

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by Engineguy

Or maybe his foot's just twitchy, impatient and anxious to get back on the power.
.

I think this is as much the case as any. I often preach patience. As far as carrying enough entry speed and still going for the throttle...it's counterproductive. My experience is that drivers who truly carried enough entry speed know damn well they did and don't even consider going to throttle prior to the apex. Tires don't like quick inputs and load direction changes, at least none I've ever come across.

The YouTube about Schumacher's driving is interesting, but really only mentions Senna's throttle work, it doesn't attempt to explain it. What they say about Sch. compared to Herbert is basically what we talk about on ovals. Let off early, but reduce the magnitude of your lift. The greater the magnitude of the lift, the more the chassis pitches, which makes a larger balance window. If you can keep the chassis at a consistent pitch angle, then it will have a consistent cornering balance.

While Schum. may go back to a consistent maintenance throttle in fast corners, particularly important with a car that had the exhaust plumbed through the diffuser, he isn't doing this in the slow corners at Monaco. He's off both pedals and just letting the car roll.

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I know we've had this discussion in the past, Kalmake. I just wanted to take a different approach this time. Hopefully this will be more of a discussion on driving rather than an exercise in hero worship.

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LB, c'mon, you really thought I was talking about shifting blips?

[saudoso]

Have a look at this:

MS X RB foot work

We can discount the fact that RB was impaired to the point of not being able to left brake. Don't know if he fixed it.

The fact is that MS has his foot on the throtle all time.

[imaginesix]

Thanks sauduso

If they knew one of MS secrets of speed, why wouldn't everyone have been trying to do the same thing. Also, I don't understand how using the brake AND throttle can lead to shorter braking distances over using the brakes alone. So, the question for me is; is this information reliable?

[saudoso]

The only thing I can assure is that, if true, it's easier said than done.

[Powersteer]

Senna is reactive and Schumacher active? Seems Schumacher takes "you are either on the gas or brakes" to a whole new level. Scumachers steering work is really aggressive though, probably pushing himself all the time tip-toe'ing the point of losing it with the pedals and keeping it in check with the wheel.

I remember seeing a Japanese video, Tommi Makkinen drove a WRC Subaru with a Japanese ex-racing driver on board on snow. He was amazed at how Makkinen was feathering the throttle, finding out where the limit of traction was all the time. Has to be related to the said two drivers.

[blkirk]

Originally posted by imaginesix
Thanks sauduso

I don't understand how using the brake AND throttle can lead to shorter braking distances over using the brakes alone.

A high-downforce car can brake much stronger at high speed than at low speed. As a result, there is much more load transfer at high speed. This means that the brakes should have a high front bias at the start of the braking zone and then move smoothly to a more even balance by the end. Since F1 cars can't have automatic brake balance adjustment, the engine can be used to modulate the rear braking force and thus change the brake balance on the car.

I know we've had several discussions around here about using TC, anti-stall, insert flavor-of-the-month ECU feature here, as a type of rear axle ABS for this very reason. In the days before the engineers put these features in the ECU, it was up to the driver to modulate the throttle to keep the rear axle from locking up under braking.

[Ross Stonefeld]

But if you've got front heavy brake bias, the rears aren't really going to be a problem, ECU tricks or not.

I'd love to hear Fat Boy's thoughts on brake bias, because for whatever reason when we're starting all drivers assume you need a little more rear bias than front and none of us know why or where we got the idea. I think it's linked to his 10% understeer vs 1% oversteer penalty theory. We figure 51% bias is "oh my god I won't be able to turn" and 49% is "I can hold on and be quick".

[blkirk]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
But if you've got front heavy brake bias, the rears aren't really going to be a problem, ECU tricks or not.

The trick is that you don't have a heavy front bias. You set the car up with a more even brake bias for the end of the braking zone. Then, at the start of the braking zone where you need less rear brake, you use the throttle to overcome some of the rear braking force. If done correctly, the car should have maximum braking at both axles throughout the braking zone without locking up and spinning off.

Just to be clear, I don't think this is what Senna was doing with the throttle mid-turn. This sort of technique is only used at the start of the braking zone. I am only responding to imaginesix's question.

[phantom II]

It is obvious to all that there may be more to competition driving than you first thought. The Michael and Ruben’s traces tells the extent of which pedal operation contributes to your unfair advantage..

Some very interesting posts from the past:

quote: Dmitriy_Guller

"It's much like open-loop vs. closed loop controls: given the perfect information, open loop would always be the best control...
...I believe that Senna's style was a form of closed-loop control system, using the loss of grip to measure how close to the limit he is. "

Interesting. Here's a bit from Wright's book Formula One Technology that bears on that question:

quote: Because circuit racing is now conducted on tracks with only 10-15 corners, the drivers learn them within a few laps and soon drive them open-loop. Control inputs include lead to compensate for phase lag in the response, and the magnitude of the input will be adjusted according to the stability and damping of the system. Only when the conditions are changing, or if the driver is at the limit searching for the last 0.5% of performance, does he drive closed-loop. The effect of the skilled driver on the transient response of the car when calculating lap time [in a lap time simulation] is to virtually eliminate transient effects. Even worse, the driver may actually drive in a non-optimum manner to overcome a handling shortcoming in the car, achieving a lower lap time than the simulation.

Quote Fat boy: “Driving 'open-loop' is when you are catching the car before the slide. Let's say there is a pavement transition 1/2 way through a corner. You've ran many laps around the track and know that the rear is going to slide as it recovers off the transition. You will instinctively correct for the slide before you actually feel it in you butt. 'Closed-loop' is where you feel the slide and then correct for it.
Since a human can only operate consciously at something like 10-20 Hz, 'closed-loop' is always going to be slow. It's very easy to tell the guys that drive this way. Their eyes are focused about 10 feet in front of the nose of their car.
'Open-loop' is when the driver uses previous information (i.e. previous lap or previous corner) to judge how fast to go through the corner. Any good driver does this subconsciously. The closed loop portion is always there, you have to adapt to the change in track conditions (for example, an oil spill), but the speed at which you present the car to the corner is 'open'. “

Have you ever seen a pigeon or a dove flair before landing? The tail feathers or fan tail rotates left to right rapidly. The slower it goes, the higher the frequency and amplitude. Check out a F18 landing or taking off. The stabulators flutter from stop to stop also having the highest frequency and amplitude the slower the flight.
When you land a light plane especially a tail dragger, You whack the rudder from left to right rapidly also increasing frequency and amplitude the slower you fly.
You don’t actually have to do this, but it is instinctual for some pilots. You test the effectiveness of the rudder or calibrate its authority by the ‘feel‘ of these deflections. At max deflection, though brief, you test the reaction of the plane which tells you just how much control you actually have. The faster you do it, the more up to date your information becomes especially as you airspeed bleeds off.
It is a cool thing to do. After touch down, the deflections are more forceful. You hold the rudder at the stop for longer periods the duration of which was determined by the information you received on short final. You go from open to closed loop inputs. At this point, you can’t interrupt this force because a ground loop is imminent.
Since I started flying at 10 before I started driving, I applied my flight knowledge to cars. Whether you drive a very powerful car or not, this performance feed back is available to all. My cars can smoke the tires in first and second just by pressing on the gas. I can do a 180’ turn(half doe nut) in a second. The gas pedal jabs decrease as the speed increase until I hold the gas to the floor and blast off in the opposite direction.

Hop into your car be it FWD or RWD and any HP. Try to accelerate from a stop on wet grass, sand, snow or what ever. Get your buddy to time your performance over a short distance, IE: max speed in first gear. You can start by popping the clutch at the rev limiter and keeping it there until the ground speed matches the indicated speed. Then do it again by trying to be as gentle as possible to obtain the most traction and speed over the same distance.
Then try using very rapid movements on the gas pedal. At some point you will keep your foot flat on the gas. This point will be determined by the information you get from kenetic feed back.. See which method is the fastest. You will be surprised.
Then go to a slippery parking lot or football field and select a gear that will keep you at a steady speed. All that you will using to control the car is the brake pedal operated by your left foot and the gas pedal by your right foot and of course the steering wheel. Start driving all over this field as rapidly as possible in the one gear that you have selected applying the brake and gas pedal in the shortest possible pulses. In less than 10 minutes you will have calibrated your input to have complete control of the car and the correct pulse frequency and deflection on both pedals to meet any situation that arises on this test field. Exaggerate the input initially until you feel it to be correct.
You will change the way you drive forever. Trust me.
Just as Senna whacks his gas pedal and I whack my rudder more aggressively than what is needed, you will be doing the same thing because it is immense fun. The trick is to determine which part of the whacks are unneccesary.

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by phantom II
It is obvious to all that there may be more to competition driving than you first thought.

Don't you mean "more ... than we first thought", or does this just happen to be another subject about which you know everything?

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
for whatever reason when we're starting all drivers assume you need a little more rear bias than front

Interesting. As a rank amateur, even I understand that the fronts contribute way more in terms of braking than the rears.

The first inkling I got of this was from my days as a recreational/for transport bicyclist. I am pretty sure I read/heard about it at least a few times through my childhood; the time I remember really understanding it was when I was hanging out at the bike shop in college and hearing the explanation re: weight transfer.

This was reinforced while I was a mechanic, seeing many cars with front discs and rear drums, and understanding how proportioning valves and load-sensing proportioning valves work.

Then it was reinforced again when I took the motorcycle safety course.

By the time I started consciously and more methodically trying to go fast around curves in a car, it was well ingrained.

[phantom II]

Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot. Ross asked me to think of the children? In your case, you can go to the children’s section at your local indoor go cart track. You may have to take your own pacifier and bib in case the other little boys beat you, but you will get the idea of what I’m talking about even with those electric plastic cars.

If you do everything I say, it is quite possible for you to achieve in life what I have done. Of course you won’t have my charm and good looks.
“You can do as I do and even greater things” Jesus. Theres a good boy.

Originally posted by imaginesix
Don't you mean "more ... than we first thought", or does this just happen to be another subject about which you know everything?

[OfficeLinebacker]

I think I'm starting to understand that there's a lot more taking of the piss around here than I first thought.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by phantom II
It .
Then try using very rapid movements on the gas pedal. At some point you will keep your foot flat on the gas. This point will be determined by the information you get from kenetic feed back.. See which method is the fastest. You will be surprised.
.

When real rally cars (the affordable fun ones) had just 2 wheels doing the talking, you would hear this often as they pulled out of corners seaching for grip, especially in muddy conditions.

[Stefan_VTi]

Well, I actually did try that way of throttle modulation (both cars & shifterkarts), but the only time I was successful with it was in downpours with lots of standing water at the track. My logic was that a faster spinning rain tire can move more water, so I kept pumping the throttle to let the tire 'dig in'. It seemed to work quite well judging from my wet race results.

[Powersteer]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I'd love to hear Fat Boy's thoughts on brake bias, because for whatever reason when we're starting all drivers assume you need a little more rear bias than front

Although not exactly fat, probably that has something to do with having a lot more rear downforce than the front at maximum downforce braking zones.

[Fat Boy]

May I recommend this to everyone.

Click on Phantom II's profile. In the bottom orange stripe you'll see "Add phantom II to Your Ignore List". Click on it.

It's a great way to start the week.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by saudoso
Have a look at this:

MS X RB foot work

We can discount the fact that RB was impaired to the point of not being able to left brake. Don't know if he fixed it.

The fact is that MS has his foot on the throtle all time.

I'm not sure what to make of MS's throttle traces. I've never seen a driver do that. I'm thinking that it is probably specific to a certain type of corner. A lot of drivers will use the brake and throttle at the same time when they first get to ovals. Think about what this is doing. It is essentially allowing you to brake with only the front tires while reducing the drive of the rears. Whether the rears are driving the car, neutral, or slowing the car depends on the amounts of each pedal.

In general, I've not found this technique as an advantage because drivers tend to use the brakes too much and overslow the car. I generally encourage them to lift off the gas earlier than they think they really need to, but with a smaller magnitude lift than what they think they really need to. When you see Rubens lift completely off the gas, make a big brake stab, and then back on the gas, he gets oversteer. Of course. He's pitched the chassis every which direction and upset the aerodynamics. It shouldn't be a surprise that he's having trouble.

I wonder if the trace from MS was when the cars had the exhaust running through the diffuser? That would explain MS trying to always keep exhaust pumping. Downforce was effected by throttle position, and so the more throttle you use, the more downforce you have. There are downsides to his technique that immediately come to mind. For one, it would be horrible for fuel economy. Since MS's races were often won by his work in the pits, is seems that he would be conscious of fuel economy. Also, it would be very hard on brake discs. Brakes are a limiting factor in F1, but I don't remember MS really having an issue with brake wear. It certainly wasn't a chronic issue. While he apparently had to ability to drive in this manner, I really question whether it was a common thing for him to do. Regardless, he wasn't driving in the fashion at Monaco in the turns that I've described. He was definitely off the gas completely.

It was interesting to look at, but I honestly don't have any real answers for the data that was presented. It's a shame MS doesn't post here and describe what he was doing!

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
But if you've got front heavy brake bias, the rears aren't really going to be a problem, ECU tricks or not.

I'd love to hear Fat Boy's thoughts on brake bias, because for whatever reason when we're starting all drivers assume you need a little more rear bias than front and none of us know why or where we got the idea. I think it's linked to his 10% understeer vs 1% oversteer penalty theory. We figure 51% bias is "oh my god I won't be able to turn" and 49% is "I can hold on and be quick".

I'm a bit torn on proper brake bias. It's one of those things that I let the driver set where he's comfortable as long as the disc temps aren't completely out of whack. It's going to be dependent on how far the driver tends to carry the brakes into the corner. If he brakes all the way into the corner, then he'll have more trouble locking rears and have to use more front bias. If he is good at releasing the brakes early, then he can use more. I like the driver to concentrate on releasing the brakes early. This usually allows them to be a fraction later on the brakes and also allows them to roll more speed from entry to apex. Oddly enough, most drivers tend to have very similar apex speeds. It's how they get there and how they get away from there that seperates them. So, in general, I'd want my driver to run a little excess front bias to help keep the rears under him. However, if running a little rear bias encourages him to get off the brake pedal earlier in the corner and roll more speed on entry, then I might push in that direction because of the overall effect that it has.

On a downforce car, I think there is probably an advantage to working the bias back and forth for different corners. MS was very good at this. Watch his in-cars and you'll see him constantly working the bias back and forth. That takes a lot of mental bandwidth. I haven't come across a guy that wants or feels the need to go there. Having said that, an F1 car brakes harder than anything I've ever worked with, so the difference in braking from a fast to a slow corner would be more pronounced, so the advantage of all the bias changes was greater.

[shanba]

RB is a right foot braker, so it would be very difficult for him to try to do what MS was doing with the pedals. I remember there was a time when Ferrari were trying to get him to left foot brake and he struggled with it. This just shows another variable in car control that MS was able to utilize to his advantage.

[phantom II]

Originally posted by Fat Boy
May I recommend this to everyone.

Click on Fat Boy's profile. In the bottom orange stripe you'll see "Add Fat Boy to Your Ignore List". Click on it.

It's a great way to start the week.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


I'm not sure what to make of MS's throttle traces. I've never seen a driver do that. I'm thinking that it is probably specific to a certain type of corner. A lot of drivers will use the brake and throttle at the same time when they first get to ovals. Think about what this is doing. It is essentially allowing you to brake with only the front tires while reducing the drive of the rears. Whether the rears are driving the car, neutral, or slowing the car depends on the amounts of each pedal.

In general, I've not found this technique as an advantage because drivers tend to use the brakes too much and overslow the car. I generally encourage them to lift off the gas earlier than they think they really need to, but with a smaller magnitude lift than what they think they really need to. When you see Rubens lift completely off the gas, make a big brake stab, and then back on the gas, he gets oversteer. Of course. He's pitched the chassis every which direction and upset the aerodynamics. It shouldn't be a surprise that he's having trouble.

I wonder if the trace from MS was when the cars had the exhaust running through the diffuser? That would explain MS trying to always keep exhaust pumping. Downforce was effected by throttle position, and so the more throttle you use, the more downforce you have. There are downsides to his technique that immediately come to mind. For one, it would be horrible for fuel economy. Since MS's races were often won by his work in the pits, is seems that he would be conscious of fuel economy. Also, it would be very hard on brake discs. Brakes are a limiting factor in F1, but I don't remember MS really having an issue with brake wear. It certainly wasn't a chronic issue. While he apparently had to ability to drive in this manner, I really question whether it was a common thing for him to do. Regardless, he wasn't driving in the fashion at Monaco in the turns that I've described. He was definitely off the gas completely.

It was interesting to look at, but I honestly don't have any real answers for the data that was presented. It's a shame MS doesn't post here and describe what he was doing!

Im surprised it was more pronounced in Turn 1 at Silverstone rather than Suzuka. If ever there was an entry speed corner, the first bend at Suzuka is it. I've seen an onboard lap with Raikkonen in a McLaren where he makes a single steering adjustment from turn in for 1 until he begins to unwind after the apex at 2. Momentum doesn't even begin to describe it.

I'd really want to see Schumacher (or anyone else's) footwork through the next sequence, the Esses. It's apparently a narrow marginbetween going too fast and not going fast enough to have the minimum download.

Are those qualifying laps?

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by Fat Boy
It's a shame MS doesn't post here and describe what he was doing!

He'd tell us, but then he'd have to kill us.

[crono33]

blipping the throttle in mid corner helps to feel and find the balance of the car. i am no racing driver, but now that i have seen this i realize i have always done this when driving hard.

i think many drivers do that



hear here Tommy Makinen working on the throttle in mid corners (but not only)

Originally posted by Fat Boy
[B]OK Previously I've said that I don't care for some of Senna's driving techniques. Here's what I'm talking about.

You have to listen closely to the engine note, but he takes several jabs at the throttle prior to the apex of slow corners. In particular, at Monaco, the tight right, left, right, right of Mirabeau, Loews, and Portier.

Watch from seconds 36-54. He does it in every corner.

snip

[Lukin]

I've seen a driver do it, though with a large touring car.

Strangely enough, he did it if the car was pushing wide in the middle of the corner as he released the brake, saying he did it (only very small throttle stabs, 10-15%) to keep the front in before he went for the throttle proper. There are a few corners where he did it most laps and it wasn't followed by substantial push; most times the steering lock came off slightly and then he picked the throttle up as per normal. I guess the small stabs at the middle of the corner may have caused the car to roll diagonally onto the outside rear and temporarily overload it, helping the car continue to turn. In all there is probably only half a dozen corners in Australia where it works, the rest of the time it does push like you would expect.

Also, with the MS data, could the throttle calibration be such that the small throttle percentages give very little actual torque to the rear wheels?

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Fat Boy

It's a shame MS doesn't post here and describe what he was doing!

I can't bare the guilt any longer - I am MS!

[Stefan_VTi]

I was wondering about calibration too, all those fancy throttle graphs are nice and all, but is that a pedal TPS measurement? Is it throttle valve rotational percentage? Is it throttle area percentage? Is it mapped pedal position?

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by cheapracer


I can't bare the guilt any longer - I am MS!

Well, what the hell? Why didn't you say so earlier? So what were you doing, Michael?

[phantom II]

If Fat Boy has blocked my post, would you kindly ask him how he adjusts brake bias on the fly with his Tilton bias knob?
Also ask him who 'his' driver is? Does he teach at a drivers ed school? I'm not as clever as he is, but I alter my bias several times a lap. Doesn't seem to take up too much band width. Don't tell him who want's to know.
Why won't he tell us who he is?

Originally posted by Fat Boy


I'm a bit torn on proper brake bias. If he brakes all the way into the corner, then he'll have more trouble locking rears and have to use more front bias. If he is good at releasing the brakes early, then he can use more. I like the driver to concentrate on releasing the brakes early. Oddly enough, most drivers tend to have very similar apex speeds. It's how they get there and how they get away from there that seperates them. So, in general, I'd want my driver to run a little excess front bias to help keep the rears under him. However, if running a little rear bias encourages him to get off the brake pedal earlier in the corner and roll more speed on entry, then I might push in that direction because of the overall effect that it has.

On a downforce car, I think there is probably an advantage to working the bias back and forth for different corners. MS was very good at this. Watch his in-cars and you'll see him constantly working the bias back and forth. That takes a lot of mental bandwidth. I haven't come across a guy that wants or feels the need to go there. Having said that, an F1 car brakes harder than anything I've ever worked with, so the difference in braking from a fast to a slow corner would be more pronounced, so the advantage of all the bias changes was greater.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by cheapracer


I can't bare the guilt any longer - I am MS!

I KNEW IT! All the clues were there...how could we be so dense?

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


Well, what the hell? Why didn't you say so earlier? So what were you doing, Michael?

Can't answer, I'm retired now and am under a secrecy clause - I can only tell Kimi, sorry.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker


I KNEW IT! All the clues were there...how could we be so dense?

It's in most of you Guy's nature.

[mini696]

I only listened to the first one. It sounds to me he is keeping the turbo spooled up.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by mini696
I only listened to the first one. It sounds to me he is keeping the turbo spooled up.

It was a naturally aspirated car.

[iharos]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


It was a naturally aspirated car.

I think it was a turbo (Honda or Renault)

[ferrarifan2000]

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

In that clip, Berger does it also, albeit in a front drive civic.


Trying to see it from their perspective, I think that they go to the throttle to test to see how close to the limit they are. If they go into a corner too slow, they don't want to just let the car sit there at the lower speed, they want to accelerate back up, so they tap the throttle to see if the tires will give way a bit or not. If they don't, they go back to the throttle a little bit heavier, and heavier, and so on until there's no slipping under acceleration.

Their mistake is that they think they're on the limit when they push the throttle and the car slides, but they're not because they're using some tire capacity to acclerate, another reason why Fat boy's way is theoretically faster around a track. The problem is in practice. It's not necessarily the theoretical style that a driver needs to chase, but the style that is most easily replicated and implemented . If the theoretical requires too much precision too much of the time for a human to achieve, then you're just chasing the unattainable while having slow times, and go to something more reliable that under uses the tire at the apex, but tries to maximize them at the exit. And there is the risk of losing too much time when you go in too fast. You can't turn in, you're off line, your exit is compromised, so you give up the perfect first phase to maximise the rest.


Also, I think their throttle movements aren't big enough to really move the weight back and forth. Instead, the blipping is quick enough to mimic a more 'maintenance' throttle effect, but each blip allows them to explore a little bit to see if they have room to push harder. If there is no room for more acceleration, well, there was no big commitment to going back to the throttle, but if the car underreacts, then they have the confidence to push harder. the mentality is different if you hold a constant pressure during maintenance throttle. The following increase in pressure is going to be more committed, smoother, and larger, and a bigger risk that you take too big a bite too soon and lose time.

And even then, who knows what their reasons were. Nico Rosberg said something interesting He said he puts a lot of time in to thinking about lines and style. The interviewer said, well everyone does. And Nico replied that you'd be surprised how few of the drivers actually think about what they do. Peter Windsor also noticed that many of the drivers in China were moving the car over too soon on the long straight, and hurting acceleration due to scrub.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by iharos


I think it was a turbo (Honda or Renault)

The Honda (Senna's) was a naturally aspirated V-10. The Renault of Prost was a turbo. If you don't believe me or your own ears, then google is your friend.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by ferrarifan2000
If they go into a corner too slow, they don't want to just let the car sit there at the lower speed, they want to accelerate back up, so they tap the throttle to see if the tires will give way a bit or not.

Ay, there's the rub.

If you enter a corner too slow, then you're not on the limit, and, pretty much by definition, shouldn't The Master be on the limit? Once you're turned the car into the corner, the proverbial dart is out of your hand. If you haven't got it right, you can't fix it until the next lap. Jabbing at the throttle will bring speed up a little bit across the center, but will more than likely mean that you get your final exit throttle application later than you should and it will hurt you in overall laptime.

I find that when a guy carries the right amount of entry speed, he doesn't even attempt mid-corner throttle applications. When that happens, we don't spend time trying to fix handling problems that are moot.

That's really the gist of this whole thread.

[ferrarifan2000]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


Ay, there's the rub.

If you enter a corner too slow, then you're not on the limit, and, pretty much by definition, shouldn't The Master be on the limit? Once you're turned the car into the corner, the proverbial dart is out of your hand. If you haven't got it right, you can't fix it until the next lap. Jabbing at the throttle will bring speed up a little bit across the center, but will more than likely mean that you get your final exit throttle application later than you should and it will hurt you in overall laptime.

I find that when a guy carries the right amount of entry speed, he doesn't even attempt mid-corner throttle applications. When that happens, we don't spend time trying to fix handling problems that are moot.

That's really the gist of this whole thread.

First of all, I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to say one way is better or not, I'm just trying to discuss the possibilities as to why they do what they do. I'm trying to understand what they're doing from what I see in the clips and from trying to see their perspective. I understand the gist of what you're saying, I was just continuing the discussion .

I think your theory is fairly clear and well defended (and also espoused by Jackie Stewart), but I'm not sure a racedrivers' technique is heavily influenced by theory after a certain point. For instance, it looked like berger was doing some big no nos in the above clip, going from brake to throttle and back again, on entry. I think some drivers, like berger, are faster than most, not because their technique is pristine, but because they are bolder than most.

I don't accept that because one is considered a 'master' that they're automatically on the limit. It's probably more realistic that better drivers get closer to using the friciton circle optimally, but they ain't on it all the way round every corner for a lap.

So, what I'm saying is that (maybe) when they go into a corner they search for information about how close to the 'limit' they are. You get information when you go in too fast because the car is going to understeer, oversteer, or you're off line because the whole car is washing out. But you don't get too much information when you go in too slow or on the limit; I guess they could try to estimate their slip angle on the limit, but i'm not sure how precise humans are at judging that from in the car. So (maybe), instead of not being sure if they were in fast enough they push on the throttle to make the car move, to know where they are in terms of grip. Then they 'feel' like they couldn't have pushed the throttle any sooner and 'feel' like they hit the limit. I think that the blipping comes in because they think that it's a way of testing how far they can push the throttle with out one big, smooth commitment, possibly overdoing it, and having a time wasting slide.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by ferrarifan2000


I think some drivers, like berger, are faster than most, not because their technique is pristine, but because they are bolder than most.

Quoted for truth. I'm always amazed at how high up the ranks guys can get 'driving dumb'. And then the fans and media are amazed that someone who was a fire breather in the junior ranks suddenly wheezes out in a super competitive and/or technological series.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld



Quoted for truth. I'm always amazed at how high up the ranks guys can get 'driving dumb'. And then the fans and media are amazed that someone who was a fire breather in the junior ranks suddenly wheezes out in a super competitive and/or technological series.

True.

Also I've seen some less than bright GP drivers but I don't think I've ever come across a top Rally driver you would consider anything but intelligent.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by cheapracer


True.

Also I've seen some less than bright GP drivers but I don't think I've ever come across a top Rally driver you would consider anything but intelligent.

Ya, it's the co-driver that must be a blithering idiot to get in the car with him!!!