28 replies to this topic

[Martyn]

Hi,

I am trying to ascertain what engine XOO 349F, the 1968 British Saloon Car Championship-winning Escort, used in 1969. There is no doubt that it used a FVA engine for the whole of 1968. What I am looking for, is concrete evidence that it switched to a Lotus-Ford 8-valve T/C for the 1969 season. My research has led me to believe that in 1969, it used a 185bhp Boreham-built engine 8-valve T/C for all races bar one. For this race, a Vegantune 8-valve T/C was installed. Any help/race results/photographic evidence would be gratefully received!!

Many thanks,

Martyn

[sterling49]

Hi Martyn, have you seen Graham Robson's "The Works Escorts"? You seem to have the information spot on, according to the book, (and my memory ) the '68 car was an F2 engined FVA, but when the regulations changed it became a Twink again. However, I was not aware (and I do not think the book highlights it) that there was any other engine spec changes for the '69 season, only possibly for the Motor Show 200 at Brands when a small blower was put over the induction so as to count as a "supercharger" and put it in the larger class.Upon lookin closer though:


Quote" For Gardner,however, there was an excuse.His usual car-XOO 349F_ was always fitted with the "supercharged" engine,and competed against the Falcons for outright wins.It managed this three times,even though its Boreham-built engine had no more than 185bhp from a Twin-Cam engine......."

Along with the Team Broadspeed and Team Lotus Cars, probably amongst the nicest saloons ever raced (IMHO), but I guess I am a tad biased

RS2000 is the real knowledge font on these cars ;)

[Martyn]

Hi,

Many thanks for your reply. I too have a real soft spot for the Alan Mann and Broadspped cars...real racing saloons!!!

I cannot find any evidence to suggest that the FVA was used in 1969. The RACMSA were moving towards Group 2 and the 1969 regulation changes were probably to ease competitors away from Group 5 and into Group 2. Also, Autosports end of season review mentions that Gardner used a Boreham-built 185bhp engine during 1968. If this was the case, then this would definitely have been a Twin Cam, as the FVA fitted to the AMR Escorts gave at least 205bhp.

Martyn

[Alan Cox]

You could always try contacting Alan Mann himself. He is a Goodwood regular these days and I'm sure someone here will have a contact for him.

[Martyn]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for that. I spent Sunday with him at Goodwood and have interviewed him for a forthcoming article. He is convinced that it was the FVA in 1969...however others disagree!!!

For such a famous car as XOO 349F there is much hearsay and confusion!

Best wishes,

Martyn

[petestenning]

The Alan Mann car was entered and raced at Snetterton in 1969 as a supercharged car and entered in the top class with the Falcons , if memory serves me right it finished 3rd well ahead of the normal twin cam Escorts.
As an aside there was also a BMW 2002 entered for Dieter Quester which never took the start as they spent all day trying to get it fire up, great pity.



Pete

[BRM MICK2]

Cant help re engine, but my all time favorite car.

It was great to see her on Sunday









Mick

[sterling49]

It seems good taste is a pre requisite of TNF Membership......how did I slip through the net

[2F-001]

I'd read that the 'supercharging' on the Alan Mann Escort was in name only and not doing anything significant - just a ruse to get into the big class and optimize its points-scoring from the giant-killing performances.

Surely points were the same in each class? So with the outright title being attainable from the smaller classes, that seems a more risky strategy - but I don't recall what quirks the points-scoring system may have had. Although it was the cream of its class, surely not enough of the 1600s were comfortably quicker than the sometimes patchy big class to make them a stiffer option to race amongst?
If the car was quick enough to topple the big-bangers anyway, it could do so from the smaller class.
Or was it simply to see if Ford could win all three larger classes?


I remember the tremendous expectation that carried me to Mallory to see this lovely car in particular at the big F3 and Saloon meeting (actually named for the Guards 4000 guineas sportscar race, I think) but it was sidelined in a big first lap melee up around the Shaw's end of the circuit. A number of lesser lights got a look in that day with, iirc, another Escort t/c winning (Andy Diamond a the name coming to mind, but that's a bit hazy now and the programme is about 100 miles away). The race for the smaller classes was deadheated but Chris Craft (Broadspeed Escort GT) and one of the Britax-Cooper-Downton Minis - Gordon Spice, I think. A great meeting that one, with two heats and a 50-lap final of F3s with a fabulous line-up...
But that's taking us way off topic!

[Pedro 917]

Still working on my pictures but here are already 2 from Friday :







A pity Frank Gardner wasn't there to drive it.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by 2F-001
(Andy Diamond a the name coming to mind, but that's a bit hazy now and the programme is about 100 miles away).

I think that was Rod Mansfield in the Diamond Paints car (IIRC),but, like you, now very hazy, once razor sharp though

[2F-001]

Ah - that sounds more likely, doesn't it... Thank you Sterling!

[pixie]

hi,I'm pretty sure the fva was only used in 1968 and cosworth had them back at the end of the season. XOO 349F may have had a twink for the first one or two races because after that the cars performance improved massively. XOO 347F was sent out with a "blown"!!! escort probably fva at oulton park I think,with jackie oliver driving like a mad thing definatly to take points away from the V8's,it headed X00 349F which certainly had the fva at that meeting @ 205 bhp there is no way a twin cam would be ahead. the last race by the way, the motor show 200 was actually won by X00 348F fitted with the fva from 349F,X00 349F was actually on the ford stand at the motor show that weekend, having already won the championship,minus it's engine.frank (gardener) was given full rpm to use (225 bhp min.) to win outright.

[Martyn]

Hi,

Thanks for the info. I did in fact find out that during the 1969 season the AMR Escorts were run with Twin Cam engines due to rule changes. The full story, is in this month's issue of Retro Ford.



Thanks again,

Martyn

[MCS]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Ah - that sounds more likely, doesn't it... Thank you Sterling!

Wasn't Andy Diamond the Gryphon (Clubmans) fellow? Welwyn Garden City rings a bell for some reason.

[coupekarter]

Don't know about Gryphon, but certainly Andy Diamond had a small workshop in the Peartree Farm Industrial estate in Welwyn Garden City in the late 70's / early 80's. He used to have a sideline selling nuts and bolts that I think his wife ran within the same premises (a service that I miss to this day!).

[MCS]

coupekarter

Your name isn't Dave by any chance is it?

[coupekarter]

Hi Mark! (Just checked through some of your postings to figure out who on earth you could be!).
Would like to take this opportunity to publicly thank you. But for you, I would have ended my days thinking that I just didn't have it at the wheel of a single seater (as opposed to a kart), but thanks to you, I know otherwise. Thanks mate.

[tedski]

hi all i think i`ve seen this posted elsewhere on the forums but it is of interest there is an article about XOO 349 F in RETROFORD magazine september 2008 its worth the read if you can get hold of it and some nice pics
regards tedski

[sterling49]

Originally posted by tedski
hi all i think i`ve seen this posted elsewhere on the forums but it is of interest there is an article about XOO 349 F in RETROFORD magazine september 2008 its worth the read if you can get hold of it and some nice pics
regards tedski

I have it, they have some really good articles, this feature is great

[tedski]

Originally posted by sterling49


I have it, they have some really good articles, this feature is great

yes it is btw i have a 1/43 scale model of this car by trofeu and also one of the AMR lotus cortinas by minichamps.Driven by Sir John Whitmore the 1964 ETC Class winner Budapest, both awesome detail.
55 year old kid at heart. Oh to have the real ones lol
regards tedski.

[RS2000]

Slightly confused as I thought this had been discussed in greater detail somewhere.
The "supercharger" was only ever a heater motor fan blowing on to the airbox, which would have had no effect on the move and probably none even at rest?
Running a car as a "spoiler" in another class would only have happened if a non-Ford had appeared there (the Camaro by then?). I recall Gardner ran as "supercharged" at the 68 BGP Brands but I don't think I've attended a major UK race since so can't comment from direct experience from then on! Later on Ford arranged for a 1000cc BD engined Escort (by then Gp2 homologated) to run in the championship to try and interrupt the Bevan Imp's domination but it was unsuccessful (no torque, too much weight for the engine size) and that (ex-Broadspeed?) Vince Woodman run-car reverted to 1300.
I believe the actual regulation change for 1969 was that the championship no longer ran to FIA Gp5 but to a UK/RACMSA played-with version of Gp5 that allowed Gp2 homologated alternative heads (which by then included the BMC A series 8 port?) but not free heads (which had allowed the FVA, based on the production TC "L" block, in FIA Gp5). We saw similar confusion with the championship later running to something that was never FIA Gp1 but was a fiddled-with version that was "Gp1 and a half". Makes history difficult...
To me, the most impressive aspect of the Mann Escort performance in Gp2 the next year was not reduced engine power TCvsFVA but reversion to Gp2 suspension from the trick, almost wishbone, front end alllowed in Gp5 (and first used in the championship on the 66 Team Lotus Mk1 Cortinas)....but then Jack Sears says in Graham Gauld's book that the leaf spring rear end on the Cortina race car was better than the Chapman A bracket, so maybe that Gp5 front wasn't as effective as it looked...

[tedski]

the trick suspension was not so much the hacked about front end but the torsion bar 5 link rear end and all without the benefits of roll cages has they were seen to be advantageous by stiffening the shell too much and so were not permitted.
regards tedski

[Tweddell]

for entries in the events of european touring car championship in 1968 the engine was a twin cam lotus and not the fva cosworth. it was without doubt a lotus twin cam under the bonnet at nurburgring 6 hours race in july 1968

[RS2000]

I'm not convinced the "Gp5" rear end would have been any significant advantage over what was alllowed in Gp2 up to 1975 and would now be considered the "traditional" Escort 4/5/6 link rear suspension set up (which hadn't been tried in early 68?). The live axle would always be the primary limiting factor.
In ETCC (briefly Gp5 then too) I guess 6 hours on an FVA was considered too risky (although, with historic race development these days, we tend to forget the Twink was not bomb proof in period).

[tedski]

RS 2000 hi
I`m not having a go at you or anything like that its just my head is full of useless bits
of information and trivia.(sometimes they escape).
The FVA could have possibly run for 6 hours as they were detuned for touring cars but this is a "what if".
FVA engines would have been run only in btcc and in 1969 were out due to a rule change and the twin cam
was in and with developement produced 185 hp which was cutting edge for those days .
The torsion bar rear end was a mother of invention piece of engineering by all accounts.

BTW the photos are really first class thank you

regards Tedski

[Tweddell]

the fva was not homologated for the escort twin cam in european championship events, that was the reason for running the twin cam.
remember, the fva was a pure formula 2 engine.

[tedski]

Tweddell hi
piece of trivia
A FVA head was sold recently on Ebay for £500 the seller had a load of FVA bits and bobs
regards tedski

[RS2000]

Originally posted by Tweddell
the fva was not homologated for the escort twin cam in european championship events, that was the reason for running the twin cam.
remember, the fva was a pure formula 2 engine.

It didn't have to be homologated in Gp5 - that was the basis for being able to use it. Appendix J Gp2 required the original or a specifically-homolgated-in-Gp2 head. Gp5 didn't. The primary difference between Gp2 and Gp5 then (apart from things like bumpers - and the RACMSA even played around with the FIA regulations for that within the BSCC) was the freedom on heads. Standard block was of course required in both.
If the ETCC banned the FVA (in the same way the BSCC did for 1969) it was not running to FIA Gp5 but it's own amended version of it? I'm indebted to Frank de Jong's excellent ETCC site for listing the years -68 and 69 - the ETCC ran to Gp5. My understanding of the then FIA Appendix J Gp5 was that it was effectively for Gp2 cars with some additional freedoms - quite different from the then Gp6 "anything goes" category or the later versions of Gp5. During that period lightweight panels could be homologated in Gp2 without a minimum production (unlike the pre-1.1.66. Gp2 that gave rise to the Lotus Cortina with all its lightweight bits and unlike post-1.1.72. Gp2 that banned lightweight panels again) so there was no difference from Gp5 in that respect - just engine and suspension regs?