42 replies to this topic

[ghinzani]

Can anyone list me all teh Cagiva Bike GP riders, by year? I know for a long time they were offering top dollar and thus attracting riders after their great years on Japanese bikes. I also read Rainey was tempted. Who did ride for them though and during what years. I know Mamola, Lawson, Little John, Mladin. Others?

[picblanc]

Originally posted by ghinzani
Can anyone list me all teh Cagiva Bike GP riders, by year? I know for a long time they were offering top dollar and thus attracting riders after their great years on Japanese bikes. I also read Rainey was tempted. Who did ride for them though and during what years. I know Mamola, Lawson, Little John, Mladin. Others?

Ron Haslam, and a Spanish rider? name escapes me right now. (Garriga?) and Virginio Ferrari, 1983.

Photo copyrighted to Graham Etheridge, racebikepics.

[subh]

1978
Marco Lucchinelli, Gianfranco Bonera

1979
Alex George ? (presumably not for the factory, if true)

1980
Virginio Ferrari, (and again George)

1981
Virginio Ferrari

1982
Jon Ekerold

1983
Virginio Ferrari, Jon Ekerold

1984
Marco Lucchinelli, Hervé Moineau, Pierre Bolle

1985
Marco Lucchinelli, Virginio Ferrari

1986
Juan Garriga, Marco Lucchinelli, Vittorio Gibertini

1987
Didier de Radiguès, Raymond Roche

1988
Randy Mamola, Raymond Roche, Massimo Broccoli

1989
Randy Mamola, Massimo Broccoli, Raymond Roche

1990
Randy Mamola, Ron Haslam, Alex Barros

1991
Eddie Lawson, Alex Barros, Raymond Roche, Marco Papa

1992
Eddie Lawson, Alex Barros

1993
John Kocinski, Doug Chandler, Mat Mladin, Juan Garriga, Carl Fogarty

1994
John Kocinski, Doug Chandler, Carl Fogarty

1995
Pier-Francesco Chili

I think that’s everyone.

[ex Rhodie racer]

Not sure about this, but I have a feeling the first "Cagiva´s", were in fact Yamaha engines in Cagiva frames. I remember seeing the machine Alex George rode, and I´m almost positive it had a TZ500 motor. I think the first "real" Cagiva, a square four, was produced in either 1981 or 82. Maybe someone else can confirm this.

[subh]

The Cagiva story is told by Michael Scott in the 1994-95 edition of Motocourse. I’ll have a read of it tomorrow...

[ghinzani]

Thats comprehensive and rapid, thanks all.

[renzobalbo]

Pierpaolo Bianchi rides an Cagiva 125 in 1988 world championship

[bradbury west]

By coincidence this was at this year's FoS.

Listed as a V589 498cc 2stroke from 1989, ex Randy mamola machine ridden at FoS by ex Cagiva rider in 90/92 Alex Barros
Roger Lund

[subh]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Not sure about this, but I have a feeling the first "Cagiva´s", were in fact Yamaha engines in Cagiva frames. I remember seeing the machine Alex George rode, and I´m almost positive it had a TZ500 motor. I think the first "real" Cagiva, a square four, was produced in either 1981 or 82. Maybe someone else can confirm this.

Michael Scott wrote the following, which pretty much confirms what you said:

“Cagiva’s racing history is littered with strange tales hinting at technical piracy and secret liaisons with supposed rivals: the charge is that they caught up with the Japanese (eventually) not merely by copying them, but by actually using the same component dimensions. This suggested a more or less covert exchange of drawings or even parts, especially with Yamaha. It is common knowledge that many intimate parts of their second-generation 1987 V4 - parts such as crankshafts and pistons - were interchangeable with Yamaha components; there were also parallel chassis developments, notably the banana-curved arched swing arm of 1988, that seemed far too similar to be a coincidence.

“Claudio Castiglioni, the brother with the higher public profile, was always staunch in his denials that there was any link whatsoever with Yamaha, or with anybody else. Yet tales of skulduggery had been with Cagiva right from the very start, including a persistent belief that the disappearance of a works Suzuki crankcase from the team’s British headquarters in 1978 was closely linked with the appearance in 1979 of the first ‘Cagiva’, which appeared to have copy square-four crankcases, surmounted by a collection of freely available Suzuki RG500 production racer components. The bike was ridden by Scotsman Alex George, managing a couple of 13th-placed finishes before disappearing into history.

“They were back in 1980 with the new Cagiva painted in the proud red-and-silver colours of the old MV team. There were other MV links too, including team boss Arturo Magni, who now filled the same role at Cagiva. This was a different machine, but still not entirely their own. On top of an in-line four Yamaha crankcase they’d put their own cylinders, without exhaust valves but with reed-valve induction. This was an early use of a system that took three or more years to become the class norm. But the bike was raced only once, at the Nürburgring on 24 August, in the hands of Virginio Ferrari. He qualified 25th, well off the pace.”

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by subh


Michael Scott wrote the following, which pretty much confirms what you said:

“Cagiva’s racing history is littered with strange tales hinting at technical piracy and secret liaisons with supposed rivals: the charge is that they caught up with the Japanese (eventually) not merely by copying them, but by actually using the same component dimensions. This suggested a more or less covert exchange of drawings or even parts, especially with Yamaha. It is common knowledge that many intimate parts of their second-generation 1987 V4 - parts such as crankshafts and pistons - were interchangeable with Yamaha components; there were also parallel chassis developments, notably the banana-curved arched swing arm of 1988, that seemed far too similar to be a coincidence.

“Claudio Castiglioni, the brother with the higher public profile, was always staunch in his denials that there was any link whatsoever with Yamaha, or with anybody else. Yet tales of skulduggery had been with Cagiva right from the very start, including a persistent belief that the disappearance of a works Suzuki crankcase from the team’s British headquarters in 1978 was closely linked with the appearance in 1979 of the first ‘Cagiva’, which appeared to have copy square-four crankcases, surmounted by a collection of freely available Suzuki RG500 production racer components. The bike was ridden by Scotsman Alex George, managing a couple of 13th-placed finishes before disappearing into history.

“They were back in 1980 with the new Cagiva painted in the proud red-and-silver colours of the old MV team. There were other MV links too, including team boss Arturo Magni, who now filled the same role at Cagiva. This was a different machine, but still not entirely their own. On top of an in-line four Yamaha crankcase they’d put their own cylinders, without exhaust valves but with reed-valve induction. This was an early use of a system that took three or more years to become the class norm. But the bike was raced only once, at the Nürburgring on 24 August, in the hands of Virginio Ferrari. He qualified 25th, well off the pace.”

Thanks for that subh. It´s an odd article though. He obviously didn´t have any real knowledge of the subject, and was too lazy to research it properly. It also boarders on liable if you ask me, suggesting Cagiva stole, or got someone to steal, a works RG bottom half. Why would they do that? Correct me if I am wrong, but I shouldn´t imagine the proddy RG and the works models differed in any significant way, and they could be bought on the open market. Doesn´t make sense. Typical Scott reporting I´m afraid. The guy should have worked for NOTW.
If you are going to write a history on a generation of machines, I think it should be based on hard facts, not a lot of hearsay.

[subh]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer

Thanks for that subh. It´s an odd article though. He obviously didn´t have any real knowledge of the subject, and was too lazy to research it properly. It also boarders on liable if you ask me, suggesting Cagiva stole, or got someone to steal, a works RG bottom half. Why would they do that? Correct me if I am wrong, but I shouldn´t imagine the proddy RG and the works models differed in any significant way, and they could be bought on the open market. Doesn´t make sense. Typical Scott reporting I´m afraid. The guy should have worked for NOTW.
If you are going to write a history on a generation of machines, I think it should be based on hard facts, not a lot of hearsay.

To be fair to him, I only picked out the bit that seemed to answer your question. The entire article is three full pages of text, and would take a lot of time to copy...

[subh]

Originally posted by ghinzani
Can anyone list me all teh Cagiva Bike GP riders, by year? I know for a long time they were offering top dollar and thus attracting riders after their great years on Japanese bikes. I also read Rainey was tempted. Who did ride for them though and during what years. I know Mamola, Lawson, Little John, Mladin. Others?

To follow up on this, the article mentioned also says that Cagiva tried to get Kenny Roberts, Barry Sheene and Wayne Rainey at different times, obviously without success.

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by subh


To follow up on this, the article mentioned also says that Cagiva tried to get Kenny Roberts, Barry Sheene and Wayne Rainey at different times, obviously without success.

I heard a rumour that Kenny actually had a test on the bike some time in the early eighties. Not sure how true it was. Evidently he wasn´t impressed. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Kenny often put rumours out at contract time, and I have a feeling this might have been one of them.

[zilo]

To late to post a reply : when I find a moment ll send picture of the 1st cagiva in line 4 just for you to see
it s neither a Yam nor any Japie copy !!

[dewittereus]

Ron Haslam, and a Spanish rider? name escapes me right now. (Garriga?) and Virginio Ferrari, 1983.

Photo copyrighted to Graham Etheridge, racebikepics.

Found this link http://www.wheelsofi....php/Cagiva_3C2 , mentioning some riders' names, for 92 (the author means 82) he also mentions van Dulmen. As far as I know Boet only did a test ride and preferred his private Suzuki, despite the money offered by Cagiva

[ex Rhodie racer]

As far as I know Boet only did a test ride and preferred his private Suzuki, despite the money offered by Cagiva

In 1982 , Cagiva produced thier first ever, "in house" 500. By that I mean, it was an all Cagiva effort, niether copied or borrowed from a Jap manufacturer.
Boet VD was contracted to ride the machine, but it wasn´t very competitive, with the result Boet kept campaigning his private Suzuki in the GP´s. Jon Ekerold was offered a contract (mid season), which he accepted after testing the machine for two days in Monza, just after the Belgium GP.
Their first race together was the Yugoslavian GP in Rijeka, which can really be considered as Cagiva´s first GP as such. While lying 12th, Ekerold was forced to retire due to a clutch problem. In their very next race, the British GP at Silverstone, the bike was qualified in 10th place, just one second off the pole, which was quite astounding when you consider it was ahead of the reigning world champ, Marco Luchinnelli and his works Honda. They finished 13th in that race. They then passed up the Swedish GP in order to concentrate on the upcoming Italian GP, but unfortunately, Ekerold crashed while testing the bike, resulting in a three broken ribs and severe concussion. In the Italian GP, week later, while battling for 8th position, the bike was again sidelined with the same clutch problem that put them out of the Yugo GP.
The last race of the season was the German GP at Hockenheim, Cagiva´s fourth race of the season, and they scored their first ever WC point (points were only awarded to 10th place at the time) when Ekerold brought the machine home in 10th place.
For the 1983 Season they employed a new designer, Valenteno Ribby (the man who designed the Ribby suspension which revolutionised MX in the 80´s), who built a tubular aluminum frame, very similar to the Ducati´s in later years (only the Ducati´s was made of steel). It was a disaster, and after only 2 GP´s, Ekerold was dismissed in favour of Virginio Ferrari, who, despite his high profile, failed to score a point for the next two years.
Jon told me that the last time he rode the bike, in the final practice for the French Gp in Le Mans, which was wet, he set the quickest time. Evidently, the frame was great as long as there was no stess on the tyres, and it handled like a dream. In the dry, however, it flexed to the point where it was virtually unrideable.
Hope I haven´t bored you.

[TZ350]

In 1982 , Cagiva produced thier first ever, "in house" 500. By that I mean, it was an all Cagiva effort, niether copied or borrowed from a Jap manufacturer.
Boet VD was contracted to ride the machine, but it wasn´t very competitive, with the result Boet kept campaigning his private Suzuki in the GP´s. Jon Ekerold was offered a contract (mid season), which he accepted after testing the machine for two days in Monza, just after the Belgium GP.
Their first race together was the Yugoslavian GP in Rijeka, which can really be considered as Cagiva´s first GP as such. While lying 12th, Ekerold was forced to retire due to a clutch problem. In their very next race, the British GP at Silverstone, the bike was qualified in 10th place, just one second off the pole, which was quite astounding when you consider it was ahead of the reigning world champ, Marco Luchinnelli and his works Honda. They finished 13th in that race. They then passed up the Swedish GP in order to concentrate on the upcoming Italian GP, but unfortunately, Ekerold crashed while testing the bike, resulting in a three broken ribs and severe concussion. In the Italian GP, week later, while battling for 8th position, the bike was again sidelined with the same clutch problem that put them out of the Yugo GP.
The last race of the season was the German GP at Hockenheim, Cagiva´s fourth race of the season, and they scored their first ever WC point (points were only awarded to 10th place at the time) when Ekerold brought the machine home in 10th place.
For the 1983 Season they employed a new designer, Valenteno Ribby (the man who designed the Ribby suspension which revolutionised MX in the 80´s), who built a tubular aluminum frame, very similar to the Ducati´s in later years (only the Ducati´s was made of steel). It was a disaster, and after only 2 GP´s, Ekerold was dismissed in favour of Virginio Ferrari, who, despite his high profile, failed to score a point for the next two years.
Jon told me that the last time he rode the bike, in the final practice for the French Gp in Le Mans, which was wet, he set the quickest time. Evidently, the frame was great as long as there was no stess on the tyres, and it handled like a dream. In the dry, however, it flexed to the point where it was virtually unrideable.
Hope I haven´t bored you.

Not at all Rhodie great story as usual

[stuavant]

Not at all Rhodie great story as usual

I reckon an ölder Matt Maldin"would have been real quick on the Cagiva but it effectively stuffed his WC career.

My fav is Randys description of his old Manager Jim Doyle. Jim had managed to squander all of Randys dosh and when the tax man called they took all Randy's worldly possessions except .....the testa rossa Ferrari that Cagiva had gifted RM for his efforts. Jim really fcuked Randy and Im always happy to see him recovered from such treachery

[Twin Window]

Were these GP bikes? If so, from which season/s?

[picblanc]

Were these GP bikes? If so, from which season/s?

1987. & yes GP bikes & riders.

[philippe7]

1987. & yes GP bikes & riders.

Yes, the year when Alain Chevallier , fresh from his 250/350 Yamaha- then 500 Honda- powered machines success, was lured by the C........ brothers ( and Didier de Radigues ) to take the technical responsibility of the team . That year, as I wrote elsewhere, I was very fortunate to be invited to the French GP , with a full access press pass, by my friend Pascal Renaudat, a former midfield french rider ( with a 12th place at the 1978 french GP to his credit ) and his lovely wife Florence, who had worked as PR officer for the Pernod team for many years . As we were having a drink inside the Cagiva tent, here comes Alain Chevallier, looking rather distressed, and as Florence asks him how things were going, he suddenly looks around him that no one is close, lowers his voice and tells her : "terribly....I'm working for a bunch of maniacs, I tell you, the C....... brothers, they are just pure mad, there is no other word....." ( hope I won't get sued for telling this story )

[Mats Karlsson]

I heard a rumour that Kenny actually had a test on the bike some time in the early eighties. Not sure how true it was. Evidently he wasn´t impressed. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Kenny often put rumours out at contract time, and I have a feeling this might have been one of them.

Kenny actually tried to buy the Cagiva team at the end of the 1994 season, but was turned down by the Castiglioni brothers.

[racer69]

I was watching the Duke review of the 1990 Hungarian GP, and in the voice over of the race it mentions that Cagiva were pulling out of GP racing at the end of the season

What kept them in? Eddie Lawson's signature?

I notice for 1991 it was called Cagiva Team Agostini.... was this just the former Agostini Marlboro Yamaha team contracted to run the Cagiva team? What makes it more interesting is that Ago is quoted in early 1990 as saying he would never work with Lawson again

[Rennmax]

I heard a rumour that Kenny actually had a test on the bike some time in the early eighties. Not sure how true it was. Evidently he wasn´t impressed. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Kenny often put rumours out at contract time, and I have a feeling this might have been one of them.

KR did have a test ride at the end of the '85 season. Since he had already retired, the reason for it was the invitation (and a awful lot of money I suppose) of the Castiglioni brothers to find out the competitiveness of the bike (obviously they didn't trust Messrs Lucchinelli and Ferrari ?) rather than to get a better deal with Yamaha. According to the report at hand, he lapped at Misano half a second outside the track record.

[bobness]

KR did have a test ride at the end of the '85 season. Since he had already retired, the reason for it was the invitation (and a awful lot of money I suppose) of the Castiglioni brothers to find out the competitiveness of the bike (obviously they didn't trust Messrs Lucchinelli and Ferrari ?) rather than to get a better deal with Yamaha. According to the report at hand, he lapped at Misano half a second outside the track record.

Must admit, I'd never twigged Papa riding the bike, but have just noticed this on fleabay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...bayphotohosting

Wish I knew how to shrink the link, sorry.

[Mats Karlsson]

Must admit, I'd never twigged Papa riding the bike, but have just noticed this on fleabay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...bayphotohosting

Wish I knew how to shrink the link, sorry.

Thinking Marco Papa was a fairly well paid test rider for Cagiva in the late 80s and early 90s if I remember correctly.

[subh]

I think that’s right. He usually raced a Honda in 1991 but filled in three times at Cagiva for Alex Barros when he was injured.

[gmwzorro]

Pier Paolo Bianchi 125 Cagiva Salzburgring 1988

[gmwzorro]

Also Ian McConnachie 125 Cagiva 1988 Salzburgring

[jonnyspa27]

Some great pics from Superbikeplanet.com:
http://superbikeplan...p/wod/index.htm

Edited by jonnyspa27, 14 October 2009 - 03:06.

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

KR did have a test ride at the end of the '85 season. Since he had already retired, the reason for it was the invitation (and a awful lot of money I suppose) of the Castiglioni brothers to find out the competitiveness of the bike (obviously they didn't trust Messrs Lucchinelli and Ferrari ?) rather than to get a better deal with Yamaha. According to the report at hand, he lapped at Misano half a second outside the track record.

Renn, I recall hearing that story at the end of 82, 83, 84 and 85, and he was always half a second off the lap record. Methinks I smell a rat. .
Anyone who knows how the Italian press operate would understand it need not necessarily have happened in order to be reported. Lets just say they like to "create" their own news.
Another thing, I doubt Cagiva would have used Misano as a test track, seeing Monza was practically on their doorstep and they did almost all their testing there.
Bit disrespectful to their riders if there was any truth to it though.

[Rennmax]

Renn, I recall hearing that story at the end of 82, 83, 84 and 85, and he was always half a second off the lap record. Methinks I smell a rat.;) .
Anyone who knows how the Italian press operate would understand it need not necessarily have happened in order to be reported. Lets just say they like to "create" their own news.
Another thing, I doubt Cagiva would have used Misano as a test track, seeing Monza was practically on their doorstep and they did almost all their testing there.
Bit disrespectful to their riders if there was any truth to it though.

Rhodie, there is a report about that test incl. pics in a period Hein Gericke catalogue, who was Ducati/Cagiva importer at that time. I think a difference of half a second per lap is creditable, it's quite a lot in regard to a complete GP distance. IIRC, Kocinski mostly broke the lap records during testing but could hardly keep that speed during a whole race.

Edited by Rennmax, 14 October 2009 - 09:15.

[Rennmax]

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

Oh well that settles it then. First time I´ve seen Kenny on the Cagiva. Great shot as well. Thanks Renn.

[fil2.8]

Came across this recently , if anybody's interested

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

Came across this recently , if anybody's interested

That´s quite interesting actually. I´ve never seen a pic of Boet on the bike.

edit. I see I´ve already posted some stuff, so I was just repeating myself. Happens when you get old they tell me.

Edited by ex Rhodie racer 2, 26 November 2009 - 23:48.

[armchair]

Michael Scott wrote the following, which pretty much confirms what you said:

“Cagiva’s racing history is littered with strange tales hinting at technical piracy and secret liaisons with supposed rivals [snip]"

I heard similar rumours about the earlier Cagiva 125 motocross engines: proprietary sand castings, customer Japanese internals (Yamaha's?) and aftermarket piston/cylinder/head (Noguchi's?), whereas the 250 engine was based on the former Aermacchi-built Harley Davidson unit.

An expertise on the wreck of the late Pasolini's Aermacchi-HD after his fatal crash had given evidence of the adoption of Yamaha piston (let's not forget that HD were experimenting with water cooling, and the use of proven, reliable parts where available could be useful to identify other problems).

In this respect, the use of Yamaha "off-the-counter" production parts seems not to have been confined to the Varese concern: I have heard rumours about the Swiss importer Hostettler's HQ crowded with technicians as a shopping mall!

IIRC (as an Italian teenager back then), the first appearance of the Cagiva name in road racing was as the sponsor of a team entering modfied customer 500 Suz' & 750 Yam's. When the Castiglioni Bros. bought the former Aermacchi company from Harley Davidson, CAGIVA obviously acquired the facilities of the racing department (HD were reigning champions in the 250 cc and 350 cc classes), plus they could rely on the skill of former MV Agusta staff. I assume that the transition between customer bikes and thoroughbred Cagivas was done step by step. As to the "secret liaisons" with rivals, I have also heard such rumours, where such liaisons were dictated by the need to keep the 500 cc class alive by supporting a not-so-dangerous competitor in order to fill the grids and kind of "spice up" racing.

My two (Euro)cents,

Marco/armchair(enthusiast) from Milan, Italy

[fil2.8]

Hi , Marco and welcome to the site , hope you have a long and happy stay with us

[armchair]

Hi , Marco and welcome to the site , hope you have a long and happy stay with us

Thank you very much!

M/a

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Thank you very much!

M/a

Hi Marco, welcome, I'm going for the top 4 posts!


David

[chunder27]

Doing some backwards foruming and discovered this thread.

There is another rider that rode a Cagiva 500 competitively you know.

It was in an invitation event at Sugo in either 94 or 95 and some if the top Japanese riders and GP riders were there.

For some reason Cagiva sent a bike and it was ridden by Nobuatso Aoki, and I think he finished 4th!

It was in an old RPM i read

[tonyed]

 

 

 

 

As exhibited at Stafford Classic Bike Show October 2014 on our 'Real Race Bikes UK' Paddock stand. The owner of this owns much of the Cagiva Race shop.

 

We will be there again on 17-18th October 2015 with an exciting array of race machinery.

 

I will also have my own stand (RHS) with some rare TZ Yamaha parts for sale. 

Edited by tonyed, 02 September 2015 - 16:41.

[cantabriamadrid]

1986 tests pre-season at Jarama circuit in Madrid. From the personnal archive of Juan Garriga

 

 

Edited by cantabriamadrid, 25 October 2015 - 23:45.