40 replies to this topic

[ex Rhodie racer]

Would be most interesting to learn how many Muslims have achieved success in the sport.

[Russell Burrows]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Would be most interesting to learn how many Muslims have achieved success in the sport.

The current Super Sport World Champ....

[Flat Black]

Excellent question!

Ray Harroun had Arabic stock and, hence, was known as "The Bedouin." Outside of Harroun, I can't think of any Islamic drivers this side of The Pond.

My guess is that, if for no other reason than proximity, Moslems would have been more prominent in the European circuits.

[Flat Black]

And before fines pounces on me I don't know for certain that Harroun was a practicing Moslem. Just because he was ethnically Arabic or partially so does not mean that he had said the Shehada.

[LotusElise]

A few rally drivers, I think. I've always assumed that Abdullah Bakhashab (sp?) was a Muslim, as would many others competing in the Middle East championships over the years.
Also, what about Laleh Seddigh? She's definitely a Muslim.

I want to say Shekhar Mehta, but I think I'm wrong about him. Possibly a Hindu or some sort of atheist/agnostic?

[fines]

Originally posted by Flat Black
Ray Harroun had Arabic stock and, hence, was known as "The Bedouin." Outside of Harroun, I can't think of any Islamic drivers this side of The Pond.

I can't be sure, but I always thought the bedouin bit about Harroun was fake, the usual "colour" dished out by race promoters?

[ex Rhodie racer]

This is fun. I think I´ll start another thread, Christian motor racing personalities, and then maybe, Agnostic motor racing personalities, and then, so they don´t feel left out, how about, Atheist motor racing personalities. Who thinks that would be a good idea?

[Russell Burrows]

Then there's Algerian born Vic Soussan....

[David M. Kane]

Boris Said?

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Then there's Algerian born Vic Soussan....

Vic was no more a muslim than I am.

[fines]

Are you?

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
This is fun. I think I´ll start another thread, Christian motor racing personalities, and then maybe, Agnostic motor racing personalities, and then, so they don´t feel left out, how about, Atheist motor racing personalities. Who thinks that would be a good idea?

I wouldn't have a problem with it, so long as people don't post epithets and the like.

Again, are these folks supposed to renounce their religion simply because you do not wish it to be discussed in this forum? What about the fact that they didn't (or don't) feel the need to hide their religion?

If you do, or wish to, that's your decision and I fully support your choice either way.

[Buford]

The Rahals are of Lebanese heritage I believe but I don't think their religion is Muslim, if they practice one at all.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
This is fun. I think I´ll start another thread, Christian motor racing personalities, and then maybe, Agnostic motor racing personalities, and then, so they don´t feel left out, how about, Atheist motor racing personalities. Who thinks that would be a good idea?

The moment I saw this thread I said to myself "Wow, he's posted this as some sort of response to his tantrum in the Jewish racing driver's thread".

While you seemed to think that this sort of discussion is "racist", I don't see anything about the threads that in any way disparages or insults anyone. If you really think that just mentioning someone's heritage, race or religion is racist, I'd say grow a thicker skin.

Maybe being in the states - growing up and living around the diversity that I have - leads me to find the various cultures ands religions of race drivers to be interesting. To me part of Jim Clark's story is his Scottish heritage. Part of what makes Robert Kubica's current success has to do with his being Polish and how that's affected his path to F1. The same could be said for Fangio and his own path to the sport some 60 years ago. In a similar way one cannot discuss American racing without involving aspects of life in - as Fines would say - the U S of A. The examples are near endless.

As far as the question posed in this thread, who was the very quick middle eastern driver who drove Porsches in the Middle East Rally Championships and occasional WRC events in the middle 80's?

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Buford
The Rahals are of Lebanese heritage I believe but I don't think their religion is Muslim, if they practice one at all.

A number of years ago, when Rahal was in CART, the Catholic chaplain, Fr. Phil, occasionally said Mass in the Rahal hospitality unit. That would seem to scupper any Muslim connection.
Tom

[fines]

Originally posted by MPea3
As far as the question posed in this thread, who was the very quick middle eastern driver who drove Porsches in the Middle East Rally Championships and occasional WRC events in the middle 80's?

Muhammed bin Sulayem? Emirates, I think.

[rx-guru]

Originally posted by fines

Muhammed bin Sulayem? Emirates, I think.

Mohammed Ben Sulayem (UAE), who also drove one of those famous Rothmans Porsche 959 Rally Raid monsters during the 1980s.

http://www.ameinfo.com/134273.html

If Prime Minister Rustam Minnikhanov, who is a regular of the FIA European Rallycross Championship for some years now (currently driving a 550+bhp Citroën C4 4WD), is also a Sunni Muslim (like most people in Tatarstan are) or rather a Russian atheist I do not know.

[scheivlak]

Jan Lammers married an islamic lady in the nineties and became a muslim himself (of a more sufi-like kind, I got the impression from an interview in those days).
Nowadays he's divorced. When asked, he considers himself neither a follower nor an apostate: "I'm not an apostate, but I genuinely loathe what's happening in the world these days. At that time I converted to the muslim faith, because it was the best choice at the time, also for my wife and family. Essentially I never changed. I have my own faith. I believe that one is born with one fundamental responsability: to do whatever you can to make life as nice as possible for each other. I just don't understand that all the believing people in the world are not able to make life a bite nicer for each each other. What has happened to forgiveness, to completely normal friendlyness?"
http://www.ad.nl/arc...ticleID=2191607

[Orkun ÖZENER]

Kenan Sofuğlu 2007 Supersport champion.(From TURKEY)

http://www.kenansofuoglu54.com/

[Flat Black]

fines,

FWIW, from The Indianapolis 500: A Complete Pictorial History (p.12), "The Bedouin was Ray Harroun (the nickname came because of his Arabian ancestry), a 29-year-old engineer with a somber, no-nonsense manner."

And Harroun is certainly an Arabic name. Hence Harroun (or Harun) al-Rashid of 1,001 Nights fame.

[renzobalbo]

Mansour Ojjeh and the orange juice for Alan Jones in 79-80 podium

[duby]

hi

the 2 most known names in the MIDDLE-EAST rallying are Muhamed ben-sulayem who won the championship here 13 or 14 times !

before him the man to beat was Said al-haijry (sorry for the spelling) . who was the Prodrive-rothmans porsche driver here .
it was the first steps of the prodrive team - before the days of the BMW M3 & subaru .

Abdullah Bahshab was a rally driver from Saudi-Arabia and did wrc with a corola WRC .

today there are 2 leading arab rally drivers - Nasar al-attayah who won in 2006 the PWRC and al-qassimi who is driving for Ford-BP wrc team .



duby

[MPea3]

Originally posted by duby
before him the man to beat was Said al-haijry (sorry for the spelling) . who was the Prodrive-rothmans porsche driver here .

I'm showing my age but this is the guy I was thinking of.

[repcobrabham]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
This is fun. I think I´ll start another thread, Christian motor racing personalities, and then maybe, Agnostic motor racing personalities, and then, so they don´t feel left out, how about, Atheist motor racing personalities. Who thinks that would be a good idea?

there's nothing like having a petulant stunt blow up in your face, is there?

one of the most interesting stories in all of motor sport is that of zohre vatankhah - she's an iranian rally driving champion ... that's right, SHE:



thanks again for creating such an interesting thread.

[fines]

Originally posted by MPea3


I'm showing my age but this is the guy I was thinking of.

Yes, Saed al Hajiri! I was thinking of him, too... but I'm not as old as you, am I???

[Red Socks]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
This is fun. I think I´ll start another thread, Christian motor racing personalities, and then maybe, Agnostic motor racing personalities, and then, so they don´t feel left out, how about, Atheist motor racing personalities. Who thinks that would be a good idea?

Actually I suspect an awful lot of them are in reality devil worshippers.

[KJJ]

Isn't there a bit of an assumption being made in this thread that Arabs are necessarily Muslims? After all many Arab communities are Christian and have been so for far longer than most European communities.

[Kevan]

Originally posted by duby
hi

the 2 most known names in the MIDDLE-EAST rallying are Muhamed ben-sulayem who won the championship here 13 or 14 times !

before him the man to beat was Said al-haijry (sorry for the spelling) . who was the Prodrive-rothmans porsche driver here .
it was the first steps of the prodrive team - before the days of the BMW M3 & subaru .

Abdullah Bahshab was a rally driver from Saudi-Arabia and did wrc with a corola WRC .

today there are 2 leading arab rally drivers - Nasar al-attayah who won in 2006 the PWRC and al-qassimi who is driving for Ford-BP wrc team .

duby

Definitely Saeed Al-Hajri, from Qatar I think- he drove Prodrive's (was it even called Prodrive back then, or was it still David Richards Autosport?) Rothmans 911s on occasional European and WRC events (Acropolis, RAC and Circuit of Ireland come to mind) during 1984-6.

I'd almost forgotten about the Rothmans 911's until they cropped up in this thread- at the risk of going massively off-topic, I'm trying to think who else drove them- Henri Toivonen, Bernard Beguin, Billy Coleman (team-mate to Al-Hajri on his Circuit of Ireland appearance) and even Roger Clark on one occasion ('84 RAC as I recall- another of Al-Hajri's European appearances?) all come to mind. Anyone else?

http://bst.webcindar...911/p911_04.jpg

As I recall, most of Mohammed Bin Sulayem's European and WRC appearances have been in Fords and Toyotas

[duby]

about ben-sulayem -

he was the first driver outside the M-SPORT team who got ford focus wrc, he only dirive it in the middle-east championship.

before that he rallied toyota celica turbo & ford escort cosworth in the wrc rounds in sweden and argentina i think . the escort was gp-N car back then.

when i was writing in the "rally-net" web-site i had all the races he took part and the results .


about the porsche - it was 911 RS sc .

as i am writing this i type the old web-site adress and it looks like it still there-
http://www.rally-net.20m.com

you can still find there some of the ford and the porsche pics .


duby

[MPea3]

Originally posted by fines

Yes, Saed al Hajiri! I was thinking of him, too... but I'm not as old as you, am I???

People tell me that you're only as old as you feel. With the way my knees feel this morning, that would make me the oldest person on this site...

[MPea3]

Originally posted by Red Socks


Actually I suspect an awful lot of them are in reality devil worshippers.

Let's leave Buford out of this.

[rx-guru]

Originally posted by rx-guru
Mohammed Ben Sulayem (UAE), who also drove one of those famous Rothmans Porsche 959 Rally Raid monsters during the 1980s.

http://www.mohammedbensulayem.com/

: Oops, think I’ve mixed something up:

Quote: "[…] Saeed Al Hajri, a renowned Qatari Middle East Rally championship driver and motorsport hero, is the only Arab Rally driver with an official Porsche history. He has twice won the FIA Middle East Rally Championship aboard a Porsche 911, and for 7 years has participated in numerous rallies in Porsche cars. Driving a Porsche 959, he managed to win the Rothmans Pharaohs Rally in 1985, and came 5th in the Bettega Memorial Trophy Italia the following year. […]"

http://www.isdera.de...ye_Aegypten.jpg

[MPea3]

Originally posted by KJJ
Isn't there a bit of an assumption being made in this thread that Arabs are necessarily Muslims? After all many Arab communities are Christian and have been so for far longer than most European communities.

Getting serious again...

You're absolutely right. I had a high schooler work for me three years ago who was a Christian Palestinian. In my own little world of cars, motorcycles and violins I'd never considered the possibility that such a thing even existed. In the US she found herself needing to assume the religious and ethnic identity of whatever was convenient to, in her words, "keep the peace". Sometimes she'd be a Christian, sometimes a Muslim, and sometimes a Jew. She said that on trips home to Israel everyone knew exactly what she was though.

As another example, about ten years ago I was looking in a nice rug store when the gentleman made a comment about having come to the US. I asked him where he was from, and he proudly stated "I am a Jew from Iran". Without thinking I asked what had brought him to this country at which time he looked at me and said "Are you kidding? I'm a Jew from Iran!"

Talk about stating the obvious.

[LotusElise]

Very true. There are communities of people of the Druze faith throughout the Near and Middle East, too.

The question of Middle Eastern drivers, of whatever faith, is quite an interesting one. For a sizeable group of people, from the Gulf states especially, with the resources to compete and commercial contacts to achieve good sponsorship deals, there have not been many very successful, ie F1 or WRC, drivers from this region. I think that this will change in the near future, especially as F1 has now established itself there.

(Just to be clear, I know that most Middle Eastern people are not wealthy oil barons, and that the majority of the population does not have the resources to even consider a motorsport career).

[Hieronymus]

http://www.lalehseddigh.net/

[Richard Jenkins]

George Howie, the Indy 500 racer was not a Muslim, but he WAS born in Syria and his middle name was Najeeb.

Basil Shabaan, F3 & A1 GP mobile chicane is from Lebanon.

Is Can Artam, the Turkish F3000 mobile chicane Muslim?

[johnwilliamdavies]

King Hussein of Jordan had a great interest in motor sport.
Here are some results from the Al Hussein International Rumman Hill Climb. I'm guessing a few of the entrants would've been of the Muslim faith.

July 16th, 1965

Pos Driver Vehicle Time
1 HRH Prince Mohammed Aston Martin DB5 03:03.60
2 John Pike Lancia Flavia Zagotta 03:04.60
3 Victor Marroum MG B 03:09.20
4 Terry Pike Triumph TR4 03:12.90
5 Hamed Unwar Ford Mustang 03:14.50
6 Khaled Rifai Austin Cooper 03:16.80
7 Vahe Ghazarian MGA 03:21.00
8 Wassim Haqqi Triumph TR3 03:31.20
9 A. Rifai V.W. 1300 03:31.70
10 A. Torrenti Alfa Romeo 1300 03:31.80
11 Robert Marroum Renault Caravelle 03:32.20
12 Hamdi Tabbaa Renault Saloon 03:33.40
13 Guiseppie Gasparini Fiat 1500 03:34.60
14 Mike Read V.W. 1200 03:34.80
15 Wadi Qubeisy V.W. Karmann Ghia 1200 03:35.70

November 11th, 1965
Pos Driver Vehicle Time
1 Shawki Saidi Lotus Elan S2 02:43.10
2 H.M. King Hussein Mercedes Benz 300 SL 02:45.10
3 Walid Arab Jaguar E Type 4.2 L 02:46.00
4 Victor Marroum MG B 02:57.80
5 H.E. Ghazi Nasser BMW 1800 03:01.40
6 John Pike Lancia Flavia Zagotta 03:02.80
7 Terry Pike Triumph TR4 03:03.20
8 Asa'd Shukri Glass 1300 Frua Gt 03:06.10
9 Edgar Arida Renault 8 Gordini 03:07.80
10 Tony Nuseir Simca 1500 03:10.30
11 Hamdi Tabbaa Renault Caravelle 03:14.00
12 Wadi Qubeisy V.W. Karmann Ghia 1200 03:23.00
13 Henry Richet Renault 1100 03:23.10
14 Walid Abu Zeid Peugeot 404 03:24.20
15 Vahe Ghazarian MG A 03:25.00

April 15th, 1966
Pos Driver Vehicle Time
1 Nabil Hamdan Lotus Elan S2 02:34.10
2 H.M. King Hussein Porsche 911 02:37.80
3 Shawki Saidi Lotus Elan S2 02:40.30
4 Walid Arab Jaguar E Type 02:42.20
5 David Hanania Jaguar E Type 02:46.20
6 Victor Marroum MG B 02:48.30
7 Samir Humsi Morris Cooper S 02:48.60
8 Salim Pharaon Morris Cooper S 02:49.00
9 Danny Chamoun Alfa Romeo Guilia Ti 02:49.10
10 Wael Salam Triumph TR4 02:49.20
11 Albert Bassoul Renault Gordini 02:49.60
12 Edgar Arida Austin Cooper 02:50.30
13 Wadi Qubeisy Hillman Hartwell IMP 02:52.60
14 H.E. Ghazi Nasser BMW 1800 02:54.10
15 Asa'd Shukri Glass 1300 Frua Gt 02:55.80

October 10th, 1966
Pos Driver Vehicle Time
1 H.M. King Hussein Porsche 904 02:21.90
2 Danny Chamoun Porsche 911 02:35.80
3 Nabil Hamdan Lotus Elan S2 02:36.20
4 Shawki Saidi Lotus Elan S2 02:36.50
5 Samir Humsi Morris Cooper S 02:41.40
6 Hamdi Tabbaa Porsche 1600 02:43.70
7 Nouman Asfour Volvo Saloon 02:46.70
8 Antoine Sa'ad Mini Cooper S 02:47.50
9 Walid Abu Zeid Porsche 1600 02:50.30
10 Edgar Arida Alfa Romeo Guilia Ti 02:52.30
11 Wadi Qubeisy Hillman Hartwell IMP 02:53.10
12 Salem Rayyes Volvo 122 S 02:54.30
13 Victor Marroum MG B 02:55.00
14 H.M. King Hussein Matra DJET 02:56.20
15 Jack Khayyat Alfa Romeo Guilia Ti 02:57.20

May 12th, 1967
Pos Driver Vehicle Time
1 H.M. King Hussein Porsche 904 02:28.20
2 Nouman Asfour Volvo Saloon 02:45.10
3 Samir Humsi Morris Cooper S 02:45.60
4 Hamdi Tabbaa Porsche 1600 02:45.80
5 Nakhleh Mattar BMW 2000 Ti 02:47.10
6 Walid Abu Zeid BMW 1800Ti 02:49.00
7 H.M. King Hussein Renault Gordini 02:49.70
8 Victor Marroum MG B 02:50.30
9 Gaby Jaber Austin Cooper 02:52.50
10 Shawki Saidi Lotus Elan S2 02:53.00
11 Edgar Arida Audi Super 90 02:53.60
12 Mohammed Asfour Volvo 144 02:54.30
13 Vahe Ghazarian BMW 1800Ti 02:54.30
14 Jack Khayyat Alfa Romeo Guilia S 02:55.70
15 Ma'an Abu Nuwar Matra DJET 02:58.30

Taken form the Royal Automobile Club of Jordan website, which also has a list of female competitors.
http://www.racj.com/main.php




----------------------------

Welsh Motor Sport History

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by repcobrabham


there's nothing like having a petulant stunt blow up in your face, is there?

Too right man. I never for one moment imagined there were so many people of the Muslim faith who were so successful at motor racing. Makes you think, really it does. Somehow I´ve always imagined it to be a western pasttime where the vast majority, if not actually Christian, have been brought up in Christian orientated societies.

[Flat Black]

Well I think it's fair to say that racing was and still is an overwhelmingly a Western phenomenon (there are many reasons for this), certain exceptions notwithstanding.

[D-Type]

Several drivers in the Safari were Muslims but as I never thought about it, I can't name any. For example, judging from his name: Mohamed Iqbal (4th 1961) was probably a Muslim

[duby]

the base for motor-sport in the middle-east region is a british one as the british forces were here since WW1 as the saikes-picou (sorry for the spelling, again) gave england alot of the middle-east.

i know that in israel, where i live, they were the first to build pu car clubs and did some autotests or so ( i am trying to look for info about it now) .



duby