35 replies to this topic

[kodandaram]

2005 was the last year for the BMW-Williams-F1 combination. A very atrocious divorce led to the formation of the BMW Sauber F1 team in 2006 and Williams were left high and dry without a manufacturers engine backing them.

There was a lot of hue and cry and public criticism by many Williams personnel and respected journos about BMW being misled by the mad doctor Theissen. They said, his claims about the money and time required to make the team successful were just wild dreams and that they would end up like a honda or a toyota. For his part, Mario conceded that in the first few years, Williams might well outperform BMW, but didn't let all the war of words get to him.

2006 was a forgettable year for Williams with pathetic reliability. They finished 8th IIRC in the WCC. By contrast BMW were in the top 6.

2007 was a very good year for BMW - they were consistently the third best team behind McLaren and Ferrari and went on to finish 3rd in the WCC , which became 2nd after McLaren were disqualified. Williams had a better year with Toyo engines and were back in the top 6 IIRC.

2008 Williams and BMW both started out with podium finishes in Australia. Since then BMW have gone from strength to strength culminating in a 1-2 finish at Montreal while Williams have been a one man team with Rosberg putting the car in places it shouldnt be but unable to convert them into results. BMW are again whupping williams big time.


So where are the nay sayers now ? I would love for someone to quote to Head his comments about Marios claims and their prospects compared to what Williams can do and ask him what he thinks of it today ?

I have great respect for both Head and Frank, I am a die hard Williams fan but of late the faith is wavering. In three years there is sufficient evidence that an independent team like Williams is unable to perform to the same level as a factory outfit - BMW. Think of all those years when MArio and Berger were saying the engine is good and the chassis needs to be improved and all those years in 2002,2004,2005 when despite having one of the best engines on the grid, the Williams chassis was not a winner.It makes sense now. There is something seriously wrong at Williams. They have consistently produced midfield cars since 2003. Since dumping them BMW have managed to outperform them from day one.

[DiStefano]

Originally posted by kodandaram
Williams have been a one man team with Rosberg

Disagree there, Nicole can't even beat his pay driver team mate, it's funny that in every "ranking" thread most people say Kaz is one the worst drivers on the grid yet he is outdriving Nicole in the races.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally posted by kodandaram
Think of all those years when MArio and Berger were saying the engine is good and the chassis needs to be improved and all those years in 2002,2004,2005 when despite having one of the best engines on the grid, the Williams chassis was not a winner.

2004 and 2005 were hardly good years for BMW on the engine side. The 2005 V10 indeed was just the previous years engine modified to last twice as long, and wasnt even updated through the year.

[ex Rhodie racer]

Every team, with one or two exceptions, that rise to the top, seem to taper off and slide downhill as the leaders age. Frank and Patrick really belong to a different era, and it´s time for them to hand over the reigns to younger, more modern leaders if they are ever to relive the glory days. Their style of team management also seems outdated and they would really benefit from having a single assertive figure who´s sole job would be to point the team in the right direction once more. Personally, I can´t see it happening, simply because it´s their baby and they would rather go down with the ship than hand over to a new captain.

[Uwe]

I never understood the sort of problems Williams and especially Patrick Head had with Mario Theissen. In all the interviews I've seen in the german TV (a lot!) Theissen was - and still is - the sober technician who analysed what the prospects were and what they had done right and wrong. He never spoke in euphemistic terms like Norbert "We-had-the-speed" Haug but if BMW had messed up Theissen would have said so openly. Mad doctor? Theissen is anything else but mad.

The only thing I can imagine is that Theissen communicated clearly (in the typical "german" way) where Williams needed to improve and that Patrick Head took this very personally. So maybe it was the different mentality between Germans and Brits.

[JonC]

Are BMW really doing any better with Sauber than they were with Williams? Not really. After 2.5 years with BMW Williams had 5 wins in the bag and were clearly ahead of everyone bar Ferrari. BMW-Sauber after 2.5 years are 3rd best with 1 win in the bag...

[Deeq]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
...it´s time for them to hand over the reigns to younger, more modern leaders if they are ever to relive the glory days. Their style of team management also seems outdated and they would really benefit from having a single assertive figure who´s sole job would be to point the team in the right direction once more.

There is the rub, hand over the reigns and they won't be - personally - reliving the glory days.... cause power is very addictive and hope eternal, And so contrary to indications - i.e. teams best interests - they will probably continue to the very bitter end..like so many of their colleagues/predecessors have done before them.

Personally, I can´t see it happening, simply because it´s their baby and they would rather go down with the ship than hand over to a new captain.

I agree that is the most probable future for the team, but I don't think it will be out of petulance/spite, But due to human weakness for power[see above]

[Orin]

At the time of the split I was suspicious that Theissen was supplying below par engines to Williams in order to bolster his case with the BMW boardroom, frankly I hoped BMW going solo would be a disaster. But since then I must admit that everything BMW have done has impressed me: the slow growth, building up the Swiss side, retaining the Sauber name, tough but realistic targets, solid drivers. You've got to hand it to them.

Sad to say, Williams looks in slow decline unless either they are joined by an engine manufacturer, or F1 becomes much less expensive. And with Frank Williams not getting any younger, I fear time is running out for the team.

[bankoq]

Originally posted by kodandaram
Williams have been a one man team with Rosberg

Yeah, right and quess who of the pair Nakajima-Rosberg loses 2-3 front wings every race?

[Uwe]

Originally posted by JonC
Are BMW really doing any better with Sauber than they were with Williams? Not really. After 2.5 years with BMW Williams had 5 wins in the bag and were clearly ahead of everyone bar Ferrari. BMW-Sauber after 2.5 years are 3rd best with 1 win in the bag...

You meant that as a joke, don't you?

Williams came from being a top team and they were P2 in 2002 and 2003. From then on: downwards with P4 in 2004 and P5 in 2005. I would have had become impatient too if I were Theissen then, especially when Patrick Head rejects every bit of help BMW might offer. OTOH Sauber started as a midfielder and BMW turned them into a top team. More important: BMW-Sauber has reached every target that they set for a certain year. Now compare that to other car manufacturers like Toyota and Honda.

[Josta]

Originally posted by Uwe

More important: BMW-Sauber has reached every target that they set for a certain year. Now compare that to other car manufacturers like Toyota and Honda.

Well Honda took their first win in their first year.

[Uwe]

Originally posted by Josta
Well Honda took their first win in their first year.

I forgot Mexico 1965. How could that happen?

[metz]

I'm with Uwe on this one.
Was always a big Williams fan. Love Frank.
When BMW came on scene I was more than happy.
Munich always had a McLaren/Mercedes relationship in mind.
When the little bun fights started with Mario and Head, it hurt me as a fan.
When PH said (in my words) "If you can do better yourself, go ahead."
Well, they did, and have done so.

Reading back over some of the disputes, I must admit that BMW was right.
Not only did Sauber go from 8 to 5 to 3, they did so while the rest of the field was also improving.
Compared to Williams, it's not a budget thing. It's a different approach.

Next year will be another telling story. Williams have opted for a different KERS design.
Let's see who is right this time.

[JonC]

It's worth remembering Sauber had the resources to be a top-team when BMW came in. They had a full size wind tunnel and a powerful super computer. All they needed was the investment to utilise their resources fully, which is exactly what they've done. They've certainly not made huge changes to the team on the technical side, it seems they've just provided more staff and more money.

And Williams were midfielders in 1998 and 1999 especially...so I don't think it's such an invalid comparison.

[Rinehart]

Originally posted by JonC
Are BMW really doing any better with Sauber than they were with Williams? Not really. After 2.5 years with BMW Williams had 5 wins in the bag and were clearly ahead of everyone bar Ferrari. BMW-Sauber after 2.5 years are 3rd best with 1 win in the bag...

Fair assessment. Williams and BMW should have gone down the partnership route ala McLaren Merc. But you can't knock Frank for sticking to his principles. Williams are down, but not out. I still believe that something will happen one day, be it with Toyota, Honda, Renault, VAG or whoever, that'll see them back to the front.

[Gemini]

For me BMW is clear winner here... There was a point where BMW were reported to be offering to buy into Williams as shareholder. It made sense for Munich to do so, seing engine freeze in coming years, and need to be responbsible for whole car to succeed. On the other hand whenever Theissen wanted BMW be more involved in non engine stuff, Patrick head was reported to say he is experienced enough not to be in need of advice from some moustached Kraut who is in F1 for only 4 years...

Now without big sponsors and manufacturing backing they are lost. 2009 revolution is their one and last chance to get back to top. As this is the time when one BIG IDEA can overcome budget shortage. I wish them well, but I would not bet my money on them

[Orin]

Originally posted by JonC
It's worth remembering Sauber had the resources to be a top-team when BMW came in. They had a full size wind tunnel and a powerful super computer. All they needed was the investment to utilise their resources fully, which is exactly what they've done. They've certainly not made huge changes to the team on the technical side, it seems they've just provided more staff and more money.

And Williams were midfielders in 1998 and 1999 especially...so I don't think it's such an invalid comparison.

Williams might have been midfielders in 98/99 but it was down to the crappy engines - the chassis was still a world-beater. It's best to regard those years as a blip, hence the strong bounce back when BMW came on board.

I also think you're overstating Sauber's position, they had some good infrastructure but they'd never been more than a midfield team, it wasn't simply a case of injecting a bit more money and watching things blossom.

[pgj]

I was very disappointed when Williams and BMW parted company. I have a great deal of respect for Mario, he is one of the few people in F1 that I make an effort to hear or read. I know that I am going to get an honest well founded opinion on motorsport, whatever the series.

Sir Frank has said that he wishes that things had been handled differently when the split happening. I do not know if anything gainful can be made from raking over what happened in the past. BMW has done an outstanding job as BMW Sauber. It has taken an existing concept and has developed it with increasing success. Next year is going to be a very big year for both Williams and BMW. For BMW, it will be the first true BMW car and for Williams there is a real need to put some of the disappointment of the last two or three seasons behind them and show that the front of the grid is a realistic prospect. Time will tell on both counts.

[Garagiste]

BMW were title contenders with Williams, since then they have had one rather fortunate win.
OK, so William's form is a cause for concern for a fan, but I really don't see how BMW can seriously point the finger and suggest that their lack of success was down to Williams, when they have basically had less since the split. They might have finished ahead in the WCC, but when has a BMW Sauber ever looked like winning a race on merit? I'm not suggenting that they might not in future, but as of now the answer is never isn't it?

[Alfisti]

That's my take on it. OK they are doing bettetr than Williams but no better than when they were with Williams that's for sure. They will now find it very tough to break the mclaren/ferrari hold.

Originally posted by Garagiste
BMW were title contenders with Williams, since then they have had one rather fortunate win.
OK, so William's form is a cause for concern for a fan, but I really don't see how BMW can seriously point the finger and suggest that their lack of success was down to Williams, when they have basically had less since the split. They might have finished ahead in the WCC, but when has a BMW Sauber ever looked like winning a race on merit? I'm not suggenting that they might not in future, but as of now the answer is never isn't it?

[Deeq]

Originally posted by Garagiste
BMW were title contenders with Williams, since then they have had one rather fortunate win.

...then they weren't title contenders - with Williams - any more i.e their last 2 years with them.
BTW was it the Williams competence or was It the Michellin factor that was behind their sole successful year together?

[Garagiste]

Way too many variables - was it the drivers, perhaps or the topping on the pizzas they had that year?
I don't doubt that there were faults on both sides. Seems a bit of a stretch to look at a team that now relies on a customer engine and compare to the works outfit and go "see?" though. :

[shonguiz]

Are you aware that you are comparing multiple titles winning team with more than 30 years of experience and a team based on on a midfield one that has never won anything determinant and is much younger ?

[Nathan]

Originally posted by kodandaram
2008 Williams and BMW both started out with podium finishes in Australia. Since then BMW have gone from strength to strength culminating in a 1-2 finish at Montreal while Williams have been a one man team

Hence why Kazu is tied on points?

[Racer Joe]

I don't think, either way (as in BMW Williams winning races/championships or not) was ever going to change the fact that BMW will eventually look to extend further control over their F1 effort. It was just a case of how it was going to transpire - either through buying into Williams and eventually kicking out SFW and PH or they go elsewhere.

I doubt SFW and PH thought that they would be better off with customer engines (ok so they are free but I don't think they get money from Toyota like they did from BMW) but that still didn't necessarily make the continuing of the partnership with BMW a tenable one unless SFW and PH gave up control.

[ViMaMo]

Originally posted by shonguiz
Are you aware that you are comparing multiple titles winning team with more than 30 years of experience and a team based on on a midfield one that has never won anything determinant and is much younger ?

BMW is performing way above what a young team is capable. They deserve the respect in that regards.
Im mystified by Williams. Lets take Mclaren, turning around the flop MP4-18 into a awesome car. Took them 1 year. Williams never did that with their walrus nose. They never quite recovered. Been three years, williams is not showing the pace it needs anywhere.
Well the last time they went down and up, took them just 2 years to recover. 2000 was pretty decent for the pace they are setting today.

How strong is the williams technical team now? Anybody? Have all the brains left williams?

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by vivian


BMW is performing way above what a young team is capable. They deserve the respect in that regards.

That's because they are not. They took over a very respectable midfield that was working well, with a seemingly good culture but lacked money and resources to go further up the grid. BMW provided both and literally slammed in a few significant missing pieces of the jigsaw.

Im mystified by Williams. Lets take Mclaren, turning around the flop MP4-18 into a awesome car. Took them 1 year. Williams never did that with their walrus nose. They never quite recovered. Been three years, williams is not showing the pace it needs anywhere.
Well the last time they went down and up, took them just 2 years to recover. 2000 was pretty decent for the pace they are setting today.

How strong is the williams technical team now? Anybody? Have all the brains left williams?

Williams did I think struggle with their technical department after 2003/4. They fell behind the pacesetters and took them awhile to get themselves together. Now they are just lacking money, sort of similar to Sauber before the BMW takeover. McLaren never lacked money. They just took a 100 million dollar fine and doesn't appear to falter if you judge their 2008 results so far. 100 million dollar fine on Williams and they will most likely close shop.

[Hippo]

Originally posted by Deeq


...then they weren't title contenders - with Williams - any more i.e their last 2 years with them.
BTW was it the Williams competence or was It the Michellin factor that was behind their sole successful year together?

Well, the Jag was equipped by Michelin too...;)

[ViMaMo]

Originally posted by Racer Joe


That's because they are not. They took over a very respectable midfield that was working well, with a seemingly good culture but lacked money and resources to go further up the grid. BMW provided both and literally slammed in a few significant missing pieces of the jigsaw.

They have never been in the 'zone', the speeds that Ferraris,Mclarens,Williams define/d. What you say makes it sound easy, but the speed they have today eludes rest of the grid barring Ferrari and Mclaren. Toyota seems to work well with a gun held to its tail, do or die.

[kodandaram]

Kazuki - the pay driver as some call him - has driven well enough only on occasion - like his drive in Monaco and Spain were impressive - kept his head and didn't lose heart.But by and large Rosberg has been outqualifying him and outracing him easily enough. Rosberg has shown genuine pace - points meriting pace - even if he has not finished the job but Kazuki has had a lot more luck to score his 8 odd points. If Rosberg had scored in Monaco and Montreal then Williams would have had maybe ten or more points extra compared to their tally now and they would be in 4th place in the WCC or at least fighting tooth and nail. Not that they cant do it now but this is the part of the season where you make a call on investing in the new season ...

[Sakae]

BMW is an admirable team who had exceeded everyone's expectations, whilst Williams has not. What else is there to be said, unless one starts read tea-leaves?

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by vivian


They have never been in the 'zone', the speeds that Ferraris,Mclarens,Williams define/d. What you say makes it sound easy, but the speed they have today eludes rest of the grid barring Ferrari and Mclaren. Toyota seems to work well with a gun held to its tail, do or die.

What has being in a zone got to do with it? Are they a young team? No, not really. So let's not look at them in that light because it is incorrect. BMW took over a team that has been around since 1993.

I didn't make it sound easy at all. I just tried to make it sound not as remarkable as you did.

One can even argue that BMW is merely justifying the amount of resources they have thrown at it whereas several teams around them are underperforming.

[ViMaMo]

Originally posted by Racer Joe


What has being in a zone got to do with it? Are they a young team? No, not really. So let's not look at them in that light because it is incorrect. BMW took over a team that has been around since 1993.

I didn't make it sound easy at all. I just tried to make it sound not as remarkable as you did.

One can even argue that BMW is merely justifying the amount of resources they have thrown at it whereas several teams around them are underperforming.

They had a good team but nothing extraordinary.
Pouring in resources doesnt move you up the grid. BMW has clearly has taken the right decisions and moved the team into a very respectable team. A steady progress up the grid, thats remarkable.

[af1krak]

Originally posted by Racer Joe

That's because they are not. They took over a very respectable midfield that was working well, with a seemingly good culture but lacked money and resources to go further up the grid. BMW provided both and literally slammed in a few significant missing pieces of the jigsaw.

LOL. I have seen this point of view made before, mainly by BMW nay sayers. You seem to know how exactly the teams were integrated.

The following is what I had posted some time ago in the BMW F1 Talk Forum, when this very subject was discussed .

I have high regards for Peter Sauber and none of us on this forum or anyother forum can come anyway near what he has achieved in motorsport. I do not mean any disrespect to Peter Sauber for what I am going to say next. However, it is the reality of where Sauber was in 2001 and where it ended up in 2005 when BMW bought it. The WCC positions starting from 2001 are

2001 - 4
2002 - 5
2003 - 6
2004 - 6
2005 - 8

Does it need any explanation of the steady decline of the Sauber team. This again doesn't tell the full story. From 2001 to 2004, it was Ferrari who won the WCC and they were quite dominant in 2002 and 2004, much more so in 2004. And who worked in close association with Ferrari during those years? It was Sauber. The team had the Ferrari engine which was one of the best on the grid. Especially, in 2004 Sauber team was popularly known as the Ferrari's 'B' team not unlike the Super Aguri. The Sauber's chasis looked very similar to Ferrari's and they were on Bridgestone tire too. So where did the Sauber team with Ferrari look alike chasis(the belief is that, it was Ferrari's 2003 chasis which won the WCC), Ferrari engine and Bridgestone tires end up? 6th. This was the same year when Ferrar was much more dominant than the rest of the grid. I am not saying that it should have competed with Ferrari (Even though Super Aguri showed it could with Honda). It should have easily competed for the 2nd place or at least 3rd. But they came in 6th.

Of course, it was the most efficiently run team and Peter Sauber built the best wind tunnel. But, if anybody wants to check the reality, Sauber was steadily declining and the team couldn't do better than 8th in 2005 with the pesonnel and resources they had. After BMW bought the team, the wind tunnel is now running 3 shifts and yes for those who try to put down BMW, all these new pesonnel (some 125+) were hired under the BMW management. With the help of Intel, Albert 2 (now Albert 3?) the most powerful computer among the teams was built which wouldn't have happened without BMW's involvement. All the decisions are being made under the BMW management. And for what can happen when the management changes, one just have to look at Honda.

[Josta]

Originally posted by af1krak

LOL. I have seen this point of view made before, mainly by BMW nay sayers. You seem to know how exactly the teams were integrated.

The following is what I had posted some time ago in the BMW F1 Talk Forum, when this very subject was discussed .

I have high regards for Peter Sauber and none of us on this forum or anyother forum can come anyway near what he has achieved in motorsport. I do not mean any disrespect to Peter Sauber for what I am going to say next. However, it is the reality of where Sauber was in 2001 and where it ended up in 2005 when BMW bought it. The WCC positions starting from 2001 are

2001 - 4
2002 - 5
2003 - 6
2004 - 6
2005 - 8

Does it need any explanation of the steady decline of the Sauber team. This again doesn't tell the full story. From 2001 to 2004, it was Ferrari who won the WCC and they were quite dominant in 2002 and 2004, much more so in 2004. And who worked in close association with Ferrari during those years? It was Sauber. The team had the Ferrari engine which was one of the best on the grid. Especially, in 2004 Sauber team was popularly known as the Ferrari's 'B' team not unlike the Super Aguri. The Sauber's chasis looked very similar to Ferrari's and they were on Bridgestone tire too. So where did the Sauber team with Ferrari look alike chasis(the belief is that, it was Ferrari's 2003 chasis which won the WCC), Ferrari engine and Bridgestone tires end up? 6th. This was the same year when Ferrar was much more dominant than the rest of the grid. I am not saying that it should have competed with Ferrari (Even though Super Aguri showed it could with Honda). It should have easily competed for the 2nd place or at least 3rd. But they came in 6th.

Of course, it was the most efficiently run team and Peter Sauber built the best wind tunnel. But, if anybody wants to check the reality, Sauber was steadily declining and the team couldn't do better than 8th in 2005 with the pesonnel and resources they had. After BMW bought the team, the wind tunnel is now running 3 shifts and yes for those who try to put down BMW, all these new pesonnel (some 125+) were hired under the BMW management. With the help of Intel, Albert 2 (now Albert 3?) the most powerful computer among the teams was built which wouldn't have happened without BMW's involvement. All the decisions are being made under the BMW management. And for what can happen when the management changes, one just have to look at Honda.

I agree with what you are saying, and I also respect Peter Sauber probably as much as any F1 figure. Living in Switzerland and having seen the homage to Peter Sauber at the transport museum here, I couldn't help but be in awe of the guy.

Regarding the computer, funnily enough, that was cause for some disquiet here. Sauber had signed an agreement with a Swiss firm to create a Albert style cluster but with AMD processors. BMW then came along who were sponsored by Intel, so had to cancel the order.

BMW though, have done very well. I know a couple of people who work there, (or used to work there), and the morale went through the roof following the takeover. Particuarly when BMW showed that not only were they not going to cull jobs, but rather go on an agressive recruitment drive AND keep the Sauber name.

BMW are currently in the same sort of position as Renault were in 2004. Lets hope they can mimick Renault's progress next year.

[af1krak]

Originally posted by Josta

I agree with what you are saying, and I also respect Peter Sauber probably as much as any F1 figure. Living in Switzerland and having seen the homage to Peter Sauber at the transport museum here, I couldn't help but be in awe of the guy.

Regarding the computer, funnily enough, that was cause for some disquiet here. Sauber had signed an agreement with a Swiss firm to create a Albert style cluster but with AMD processors. BMW then came along who were sponsored by Intel, so had to cancel the order.

BMW though, have done very well. I know a couple of people who work there, (or used to work there), and the morale went through the roof following the takeover. Particuarly when BMW showed that not only were they not going to cull jobs, but rather go on an agressive recruitment drive AND keep the Sauber name.

BMW are currently in the same sort of position as Renault were in 2004. Lets hope they can mimick Renault's progress next year.

Thanks for the tid bits. Information like this can only come from somebody who is local.