52 replies to this topic

[Orkun ÖZENER]

What do you think about using " artificial rain " in some of Formula 1 tracks ?

As you know the singapore gp will run on artificial day light . So why not for an artifical rainy race ? I think in the 21 st cenury Formula 1 must use this option.

Of course there will be lots of safety problems.But I think all of hem can be accomplished by a well designed system. And the rainy periods could be controlled easily. You can use same amount of water for the circuit with a complicated system . Of course you had to enter the rain period or periods before the race that no body knows.(For justice) .

I think with this way some of the races would be more excting. And I think it is worth to make a brain storm for this.

PS: Is there any circuit that stil uses a detailed artifical rain system ?

Regards.

[Sébastien]

No thanks, I like my racing "straight up" without artificially spicing it up.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

I don't want artificial, gimmicky 'solutions' like this - or, for that matter, adjustable wings, push-to-pass buttons and refuelling.

Severely reducing the wings and bringing back slick tyres - the GP2 solution - should help fix the problem.

[undersquare]

Artificial, but fun!

Who would turn the sprinklers on and off?

And would you have, say, two wet corners and the rest dry?

I'd rather have sprinklers than curse/push-to-pass and the adjustable wing, anyway.

[pgj]

Yes, put some moguls in as well and a mud pan. It is just what F1 needs. lol.

[Orkun ÖZENER]

Why a reaction ? Doesn't it worth to try ? You can conrol the sprinkler with a software..You can enter the rainy periods before the race..For ex.At thursday before the first practices.(that only the programmer and ie.Charlie Whiting knows) . With this way you can obtain the justice in the circuit for every team. You can control all of variables... Than with this you can examine the teams to react for different and continously changing conditions... ? Why not ?

[nc6]

I always pray to the rain god before a race, so I'd be keen for this, just for the entertainment factor alone.
I understand wanting to keep it pure, but if it provides for a better spectacle, then why not try it. Especially on circuits where there is little to no overtaking.
My team are languishing towards the rear of the field so I'm a little biased naturally

[Ogami musashi]

What is the point of doing F1 cars then???

Rain means low grip. There's no need to make such cars if all you want is to see them spins.

It is good sometimes, but i much prefer dry race where cars can actually use what they are made for: their grip.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by Ogami musashi
What is the point of doing F1 cars then???

Rain means low grip. There's no need to make such cars if all you want is to see them spins.

It is good sometimes, but i much prefer dry race where cars can actually use what they are made for: their grip.

I see what you mean. But how about grip on both wet and dry, in every race? That's still a challenge. And unlike curse and the wing setting, we can see what's going on.

[MikeTekRacing]

anything fake is bad

[Orkun ÖZENER]

You can compare the grips at the wet also... It is really a different challenge... It is not tha main point " spinning cars ". The main point is outcoming an extreme factor at an unknown time on the track.And more exciting race... It is worth to ry I think.

[pgj]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
anything fake is bad

Me too!

Just supposing that the idea was accepted. How would you decide which races were to be wet and how many would be wet. Perhaps, allow TV to choose on the basis that a wet race in Monaco would provide more crashes?

Why not make the racing even more artificial and call for mandatory SC's every eight laps?

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
anything fake is bad

[Rinehart]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

[MichaelPM]

If they make it rain the teams will figure out exactly what the rain would be like and how to best cope with it resulting in boring wet races.

Teams have massive amounts of data on each track and will have a very good rough setup ready before the first team member even steps foot in the country if they raced there last year and thats the problem. They need to cut testing and data storage by the teams to create an artificial wet race in all conditions.

[Crazy Ninja]

No rain until Ross and Michael come back please.

[Orkun ÖZENER]

The main point is not obtaining a crash.If we discuss from this point we can manipulate the subject easily. But if you look from this side..Yes the possibility of the crashes will be higher in percentage.But this is the motorsport.Otherwise you should stop all rainy race... Choosing a proper race is another different question.But of course after a detailed analyse with considering lots of conditions a proper circuit can be chosen.But the Monaco would not be one of this circuit because of safetey considerations...

[pgj]

Orkun, I am not with you on this one.

[Orkun ÖZENER]

PGJ, Of course anybody can have different ideas about this subject this is so normal. This is only an idea...
And I think it is worth to think on ?

[Atreiu]

It would be a huge waste of countless resources.

Whenever they fix the cars, if they ever fix the cars, the racing will be good enough for us not to cry for a wet track.

One of the best seasons ever, if not the best, didn't have a wet race at all.

[Orkun ÖZENER]

I agree with this .. "the racing will be good enough for us not to cry for a wet track"

But if it is possible , why not ? The top class series would use the top class technology..

[Atreiu]

It would be possible but still remain a pointless waste.

I'd rather see track designers spending their time and money getting rid of useless chincanes, for starters.

[Ogami musashi]

Originally posted by Orkun ÖZENER
You can compare the grips at the wet also... It is really a different challenge... It is not tha main point " spinning cars ". The main point is outcoming an extreme factor at an unknown time on the track.And more exciting race... It is worth to ry I think.

What i mean is that low grip totally changes the orientation of driving. Low grip means that you are in a car control type of race, where the pilot has to fight the car to stay on the track.

The F1 cars are not meant for that, they're meant for grip racing.

Occasionally i don't mind wet races since that brings variety and as you said a kind of uncertainty but to make races wet mandatory would completely remove the grip racing criteria of F1 cars thus they would not be F1 cars anymore.

In addition the car control racing switch i mainly done because the cars are not designed to race on the wet.
This is the main reason why wet races level the field. The cars are not able to grip race anymore so all the differences between cars are erased.

If all race are wet, then they will design cars to run on the wet, and then all the excitement will go away.

Even if you want only One or two races to be run on the wet, as soon as you make that occur on will, designers will take it into account to bring wet variants of their cars and again, all the excitement of wet races will go away.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It wouldn't work. Wet races are 'exciting' because the conditions are random. With fixed amounts of rain and weather (ie like tire testing) you'd be able to setup your cars and strategy for the amount of water on the track and over time it'd become as predictable as dry racing.

[primer]

Artificial rain is not a bad idea. Tracks that are likely to be traditionally dry (Bahrain) would make a great candidate. Imagine a night race in Bahrain on wet track! They could alternate between dry and wet races every other season.

Just make sure that the teams are informed about the artificial wet races, and how many laps will be wet etc well ahead of time.

[Orkun ÖZENER]

I can undertsand everybody... There is not any artifical factor on track conditions in usage know... But ın the following century ... in the following years... artifical factors like rain or any other factor has to be considered ... You can't make Formula 1 more and more exciting only limiting the budgets and making the fuel consumption % 50 lower...Physically these restrictions will have one end. And you should think of about this subject.."or relevant solutions"...

I did not considered all of races will be held at wet conditions.Only one or two chosen race. Of course the factors has to be predefined.But they will be random for the teams and the racers...

[pgj]

Turn it into a poll.

[se7en_24]

What next, why not go the full distance and turn it into something like Takeshi's Castle with people firing beach balls and things at the cars to put the drivers off.

[Garagiste]

The main reason wet races are more entertaining is the lack of grip.
If we accept that much then there's a far easier solution than spraying the surface. Simply mandate a hard, all weather tyre - like those that were used in the 1960s. Job done, plus money saved and possible fringe benefits for road tyre development.

[Ogami musashi]

Originally posted by Garagiste
The main reason wet races are more entertaining is the lack of grip.
If we accept that much then there's a far easier solution than spraying the surface. Simply mandate a hard, all weather tyre - like those that were used in the 1960s. Job done, plus money saved and possible fringe benefits for road tyre development.

I don't see the point into turning F1 a low grip series...

And no, you don't help road tyre development by mandating low grip tyres. You need to have development into high performance tyres, to after that achieve low cost good performance road tyres because all the R&D would have been carried on the racing tyre.

Actuall road tyres benefit a lot from F1 tyres precisely because they offer a lot of grip.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by Ogami musashi


I don't see the point into turning F1 a low grip series...

You wouldn't run the whole race wet, though, or even the whole track necessarily.

[Smudger]

I was just reading of a race in the thirties which had a fatal accident because someone threw a straw bale in front of the cars to 'spice things up'. How about that? Or the days of the Targa Florio when the locals took pot shots at the cars?

I think people are being unnecessarily polite. The idea stinks.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by Smudger
I was just reading of a race in the thirties which had a fatal accident because someone threw a straw bale in front of the cars to 'spice things up'. How about that? Or the days of the Targa Florio when the locals took pot shots at the cars?

I think people are being unnecessarily polite. The idea stinks.

Well not to be unnecessarily polite, your comparisons are absurd

[Orkun ÖZENER]

It depends of how you are lookind to this subject...I accept Formula 1 is really safer thaen oldies. But this does not mean that there will be no fatal crash.It depends of crashes nature and the dynamics...It could be ona dry circuit also (That no body wants..)

As another point; you should not waste huge amaount water during a race like this. You can collect the water with resorvoirs then filter and pump them again to sprinklers....Of course there would be vaporuing loses but not so much ı think.

[Ogami musashi]

Originally posted by undersquare



You wouldn't run the whole race wet, though, or even the whole track necessarily.

I was answering Garagiste.

Your idea may be fun but that's a bit turning F1 in rallying (i mean mixed surfaces).
Well not that i'm opposed to, but as soon as you make in voluntary team will prepare set ups for that and a lot of the tightening that happens will go away.


I seriously think that some people should ask themselves if the reason they are not excited by races is not themselves.

Everyone is free to chose their criteria to like or not a series, but willing to change everything always is a bit both not the best thing to make "good racing" and would result in horrid results.

Let me resume what are the current popular ideas:

-wet races
-low grip tyres that last the whole race
-high capacity engines
-no downforce
-no "easy" run off areas
-cars powersliding

So F1 would be about cars on ice with traps around the track....great thing! i think rally and trophee andros offer about the same things...

[Garagiste]

Originally posted by Ogami musashi


I don't see the point into turning F1 a low grip series...

And no, you don't help road tyre development by mandating low grip tyres. You need to have development into high performance tyres, to after that achieve low cost good performance road tyres because all the R&D would have been carried on the racing tyre.

Actuall road tyres benefit a lot from F1 tyres precisely because they offer a lot of grip.

Very simply because if you have more power than grip the cars are entertaining to watch. If you like things the other way around then go knock yourself out watching the borefest that is modern F3.
The low grip thing is relative, though - and I think you may have missed the point in my idea about the tyres being all weather. Slicks / grooves have no relevance at all to road tyres because they can't be used on them.
An all weather tyre for F1 would still be "high performance" in road car terms, as durability can be sacrificed for grip to an extent, but it shouldn't reach the grip levels of a slick tyre.

Just MO, obviously, but I like to see the drivers doing some work, and judging by the reaction that less "hardcore" fans have to wet races, I doubt I'm in the minority there.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by Ogami musashi


I was answering Garagiste.

Your idea may be fun but that's a bit turning F1 in rallying (i mean mixed surfaces).
Well not that i'm opposed to, but as soon as you make in voluntary team will prepare set ups for that and a lot of the tightening that happens will go away.


I seriously think that some people should ask themselves if the reason they are not excited by races is not themselves.

Everyone is free to chose their criteria to like or not a series, but willing to change everything always is a bit both not the best thing to make "good racing" and would result in horrid results.

Let me resume what are the current popular ideas:

-wet races
-low grip tyres that last the whole race
-high capacity engines
-no downforce
-no "easy" run off areas
-cars powersliding

So F1 would be about cars on ice with traps around the track....great thing! i think rally and trophee andros offer about the same things...

TBH I am more examining the case for it, rather than being sure it would be a good idea.

From some points of view, racing prototypes in circles is inherently artificial. The main thing is what is stands for, and what the result means.

For me there are far too many rules in F1, like the width of the engine cover and the size of the brake ducts, that are quite pointless and artificial. The worst rules for fans are the ones that we can't see, like kers and adjustable front wings, they are likely to stop us seeing who is driving well and who has built and set up the best car.

The sprinklers at least would be obvious, and would introduce *change* into a race, but still leave the essential competition between cars and drivers.

It would have to be pseudo-random, IMO, unpredictable but demonstrably not done unfairly.

[Ogami musashi]

Originally posted by Garagiste


Very simply because if you have more power than grip the cars are entertaining to watch.

An amount of car control is good, but that's not what F1 is all about.
You like watching slides, i like watching driver's line, acceleration and braking curves (hear them, see them).
I like to see driver finding additionnal grip to pass of corner faster.

controlling the balance if fun, but there're a lot more series to do that, rallying being the most important.

Originally posted by Garagiste

If you like things the other way around then go knock yourself out watching the borefest that is modern F3.

I like F1 as it is. why should it be ME to change?
You mix a context 40 years old with technology of today.
in the 60's the cars required control because they couldn't do otherwise.
The winning cars were the one the easiest to handle to allow the drivers to exploit grip..this is the same today except that the balance is far better maintained hence far more grip.

Today such cars would be overpowered formula Fords.

Originally posted by Garagiste

The low grip thing is relative, though - and I think you may have missed the point in my idea about the tyres being all weather. Slicks / grooves have no relevance at all to road tyres because they can't be used on them.

No relevance???? did you ever went to either michelin or bridgestone websites and had a look at their road tyres range?? there's everywhere icons of techonologies coming from F1 (like assymetric paterns, sections contact path etc.)..

Being all weather would be great but you explicitly said you wanted "low grip", and i say that low grip is certainly not relevant to road tyres.

You don't aim at "low grip" in road tyres.

So '"low grip" is a thing "all weather" another.

Originally posted by Garagiste

An all weather tyre for F1 would still be "high performance" in road car terms, as durability can be sacrificed for grip to an extent, but it shouldn't reach the grip levels of a slick tyre.

That has no relevance at all. The all weather research in road tyre aims at mixing performance from specialized tyres. They thus have to exist.

Until a racing tyre can effectively be all weather without sacrifying too much of grip there's no relvance to road tyres.

The road tyres take from research done into wet tyres, dry tyres and slicks for racing. An all weather tyre wich would compromise grip would flat the research curve because all the R&D would be aimed at compromising things.

Originally posted by Garagiste

Just MO, obviously, but I like to see the drivers doing some work, and judging by the reaction that less "hardcore" fans have to wet races, I doubt I'm in the minority there.

Being in minority or not doesn't mean nothing.

[Orkun ÖZENER]

" so F1 would be about cars on ice with traps around the track....great thing! i think rally and trophee andros offer about the same things..."

I think this idea can be achivable and I dont think so an artificially wetted circuit will sems like an icey track...This is a little bit an exaggeration I think...At the other hand Formula 1 alyways needs popular ideas..

[rolf123]

I don't see what's wrong with this idea. It's no different to the introduction of refuelling and "passing in the pits".

[Ogami musashi]

Originally posted by Orkun ÖZENER
" so F1 would be about cars on ice with traps around the track....great thing! i think rally and trophee andros offer about the same things..."

I think this idea can be achivable and I dont think so an artificially wetted circuit will sems like an icey track...This is a little bit an exaggeration I think...At the other hand Formula 1 alyways needs popular ideas..

Put a 800HP car with no downforce, low grip tyres on the wet and you'll see how it will be.

More seriously, Ice and water can be similarly considered as far as adherence is concerned; Snow can't however.

[Smudger]

Originally posted by undersquare


Well not to be unnecessarily polite, your comparisons are absurd

How so?

[pingu666]

ud haveto remove all the sprinker heads before bike/sidecar racing, otherwise it would gore the riders who fell off quite nicely

[Orkun ÖZENER]

Dear Ogami musashi

" Put a 800HP car with no downforce, low grip tyres on the wet and you'll see how it will be.

More seriously, Ice and water can be similarly considered as far as adherence is concerned; "


It is obvious and more and more clear that you create any situation ... There is not any problem in here... But I dont thik so you can evaluate the icey and the wet surface characteristics in terms of adherence.. May be only adhesive friction in minimal scale...But the in terms of deformation friction which handles most of the grip would be very very different I think...

[Garagiste]

Originally posted by Ogami musashi

An amount of car control is good, but that's not what F1 is all about.

Not any more, no - although it has improved this year with no TC.

I like F1 as it is. why should it be ME to change?

You don't have to do anything, just an observation that if you like the status quo in F1 then F3 must be right up your alley. I OTOH, think that the racing can be improved as does the OP, hence the thread.

No relevance???? did you ever went to either michelin or bridgestone websites and had a look at their road tyres range?? there's everywhere icons of techonologies coming from F1 (like assymetric paterns, sections contact path etc.)..

But you can't put slicks on your road car and drive on the road, ergo all weather tyres are more relevant as they are what every road car sits on.

So '"low grip" is a thing "all weather" another.

Up to a point, but in general terms an all weather tyre is going to grip less than the equvalent slick as it will have a smaller contact patch. And again, we are talking "low grip" only in relative terms, so there's no need for hysterical overreactions and comparisons to Ice racing or Rallying.

[Ogami musashi]

Originally posted by Orkun ÖZENER
Dear Ogami musashi

" Put a 800HP car with no downforce, low grip tyres on the wet and you'll see how it will be.

More seriously, Ice and water can be similarly considered as far as adherence is concerned; "


It is obvious and more and more clear that you create any situation ... There is not any problem in here... But I dont thik so you can evaluate the icey and the wet surface characteristics in terms of adherence.. May be only adhesive friction in minimal scale...But the in terms of deformation friction which handles most of the grip would be very very different I think...

Ice under high friction (a tyre transmitting power) behave like a wet asphalt.

Of course the grip is better on wet tyres but i don't think your realize just how much downforce and tyre's grip contribute to it being not ice like.

Originally posted by Orkun ÖZENER
Not any more, no - although it has improved this year with no TC.

It makes at least 30 years this is not anymore like that.

Originally posted by Orkun ÖZENER

I OTOH, think that the racing can be improved as does the OP, hence the thread.

Yes and i think this would not improve anything, it would just make the racing different. Sure it would appeal you because you like that idea of racing, but not everyone shares your views.

Originally posted by Orkun ÖZENER

But you can't put slicks on your road car and drive on the road, ergo all weather tyres are more relevant as they are what every road car sits on.

Relevance have nothing to see with putting straight away something onto the road.
Those are the technologies involved that count.

Racing engines have been since the start used as testbed for road engines, did you see anywhere a road engine reving at 15rpms???

A tyre is not simply having a groove or not, it is a question of compound and structure.

Originally posted by Orkun ÖZENER

And again, we are talking "low grip" only in relative terms, so there's no need for hysterical overreactions and comparisons to Ice racing or Rallying.

You just said "what makes wet races exciting is low grip" didn't you??? I can't read into your mind so i just elaborate on what you say;

You want a grip level of something near a wet race? i say i don't see the point for the points mentioned in the above post (mainly that F1 racing cars are designed to grip).

Now your idea of all weather tyre is imho not relevant to road tyres (i explained why in the above posts) and more it would be less relevant than specialized tyres.
That's why i don't think your idea is viable.

[SeanValen]

We've done threads on artificial rain in the past, and the answer is always well, we wish, we would love it, but it hasn't happened yet, and like half a dozen ideas that every fan has, that can improve the sport, it hasn't happened, as those who are in control right now are holding talks today to improve the sport, there's alot F1 needs to do.


If it doesn't rain in a season at least twice or 3 times, then maybe yeah flood a track, but don't get carried away with rain, it's just a excuse for everyone else to get lazy with other rules, but those in charge right now ARE TOO LAME to do it.

[Orkun ÖZENER]

I orginaly only posted the first item that you answered... I accept an ice can behave like an tarmac but under specific conditions which depends on the ice and surface characteristics...
The other posts that you aswered are not mine..(as you wrote)...

All in all we are getting far away from the real subject... I think Artificial Effects (rain or etc....) on the circuits must be discussed ... We are not living at past.... All of the oldies are are good enough to remember and has a big passion...that they make us lover of this sport...But always there has to be regeneration....No body can prevent this... If not this day...In the future it has to be...

[undersquare]

Originally posted by Smudger


How so?

It's an absurd comparison because you're comparing irresponsible individuals being obviously bloody dangerous and unsporting, a long time ago, with the FIA implementing a track watering system.

[Garagiste]

Ogami, I thnk you have your quotes in a bit of a muddle and it's clear that we have to agree to differ, but just to be clear: OP suggested wetting the surface artificially. My alternative suggestion would be to mandate an all weather tyre that grips less than current dry tyres, but offers a similar amount of grip to current inters in the event of rain.

[Smudger]

Originally posted by undersquare


It's an absurd comparison because you're comparing irresponsible individuals being obviously bloody dangerous and unsporting, a long time ago, with the FIA implementing a track watering system.

Yup. Same thing...