35 replies to this topic

[RTH]

Whilst looking over photos from the Silverstone Classic media day again , I am a bit puzzled by this car a Cooper Alfa Romeo.

As I understand it Cooper Racing Cars closed their doors in 1969 and for various reasons in those last 2 or 3 years cars were made with Ferrari, Maserati and BRM engines. There was even an early F5000 car.
However I have no recollection, and indeed reading Mike Lawrence's book COOPER there is no mention anywhere of a Cooper Grand Prix car taking part in any F1 races fitted with an Alfa Romeo engine.

Looking at the photo I took below the Alfa engine in this car looks modern, it looks die cast , and looks very much like a production based V8 engine as fitted to the Alfa Romeo Montreal road car which was a 2.5 litre V8 on sale between 1970 and 1975.



So what exactly is the story here?

Am I right in thinking to take part in current historic races the configuration make, model, type and powertrain had to have raced in period to be eligible ?

Anyone got a GP race record of this car ? Maybe I am wrong am I ?


Vast amounts of information here about the Montreal and its engine on this excellent website

http://www.alfamontreal.info/

[scheivlak]

Googling brought me this (the 'Lucien' sticker helped....) : http://www.ultimatec...Alfa-Romeo.html

Not everything written there is correct BTW - Jochen Rindt giving the Cooper-BRM its debut in the 1968 British GP

[Ted Walker]

The car was apparantly tested by Bianchi at Silverstone but NEVER RACED. It was fitted with a proper T33 type racing engine not as now fitted with a modified montreal unit.

[Catalina Park]

Mildren was running a Brabham Alfa from about 68 in the Tasman and Australian races with Frank Gardner and TNF member Kevin Bartlett driving it.

[David Shaw]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
The car was apparantly tested by Bianchi at Silverstone but NEVER RACED. It was fitted with a proper T33 type racing engine not as now fitted with a modified montreal unit.

It was the Cooper Type 86C.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Mildren was running a Brabham Alfa from about 68 in the Tasman and Australian races with Frank Gardner and TNF member Kevin Bartlett driving it.

That car made its debut in the 1967 Hordern Trophy at Warwick Farm... December 3...

It won, too, and took the outright lap record. Mildren continued to use the two engines he obtained from Alfa through to October 26, 1969, when Kevin Bartlett clinched his second Gold Star series. He'd won the 1968 title with the Brabham-Alfa and then two cars contested the Tasman with the engines, the Brabham for Bartlett and the new 'Yellow Submarine' Mildren Mono for Gardner.

After the Tasman, Bartlett took over the Mono and the Brabham was sold off minus engine. The engine supply was getting thin towards the end of the '69 Gold Star, it seems, as the 1850cc Waggott 4-cyl engine was used in the Mono in the Mallala round on October 13. For the Hordern Trophy in December the 2-litre Waggott engine was used and the V8s... one of which was in pieces... were put in a corner of the workshop.

A couple of years later one or both of the engines were passed on to Brian Foley to use in an Alfa GTA-based sports sedan.

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
The car was apparantly tested by Bianchi at Silverstone but NEVER RACED.

A bit like the Walker Climax, Ted, but at least that has a correct engine, though I cannot comment on whether it is original type or a new block one.
Roger Lund.

[Macca]

Originally posted by bradbury west

A bit like the Walker Climax, Ted, but at least that has a correct engine, though I cannot comment on whether it is original type or a new block one.
Roger Lund.

...........and the Lotus 57/58.

Paul M

[llmaurice]

All I recall is in (I believe) 2001 a guy called Ron Mayden "crammed" his licence through Classic and Historic FF with the assistance of Mark Linstone and his Merlyn and the next I heard of him , he was driving the Cooper Alfa in 2002 which almost certainly had a converted Montreal motor fitted with Webers . Definitely an improvement over the dreaded Spica injection !

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
The car was apparantly tested by Bianchi at Silverstone but NEVER RACED. It was fitted with a proper T33 type racing engine ....

... and intended for Andrea de Adamich IIRC. The engine belonged to Autodelta, who took it along to Colnbrook instead: thus the McLaren M7D and M14D were born .....

[Hartside]

The car in the photo is Cooper F1-3-68 and never raced in F1.

It was sold from the Cooper works as a rolling chassis in 1969 to Fred Place, who fitted a 5 litre Ford engine and Hewland gearbox and raced the car in the F5000 Guards series of 1970.

The gearbox is still in use I think in the car today. I seem to remember the car being stolen, presumably for spares, but was recovered untouched. It was adveritised for sale in the 1970's and eventually went to America, where it was painted red, but I never saw any reports of it racing.

It went around Silverstone at the classic as I remember seeing it back in 1970, lacking performance but great to watch.

[Giraffe]

By giraffe138


By giraffe138


By giraffe138


By giraffe138

Here is the T86C yesterday at Donington; it expired on Friday's race warm-up lap, but it looks great! Entered by Matt Dobson.
I wasn't observant enough to spot what engine was in it now, but the pit garage plan said "T33" but the programme was non-commital.

Edited by Giraffe, 11 May 2009 - 14:23.

[racemechanic]

You are right about the engine, the origional engine was the same as the Alfa T33 but as these engines are now almost impossable to get hold of, this car is now running a modified montrial engine as its as close as was possable to get hold of to enable the car to still be running. The cooper is still owned by Ron Maydon(the masters series organiser), who also owns the Amon F1 car.

The car was driven by me (Matt Dobson) at Donington last weekend but unfortinatly the engine expired on the green flag lap for the race on saturday. If anyone has any pictures of the car I would love to see them (Especially on circuit from the weekend).


# this isnt my account, im using a friends account as im not yet a registered member! I am a regular browser of these pages tho! #

[David Birchall]

I recently acquired a Montreal engine and I am very interested in these pictures-what is the injection system it is using? It certainly isn't SPICA...And what is the ignition system? I need to change mine to something front mounted.
How many rpm do you use?

Edited by David Birchall, 11 May 2009 - 22:39.

[Giraffe]

By giraffe138

As advertised in Autosport, August 8th, 1969. Seems reasonable...................

[Sharman]

By giraffe138

As advertised in Autosport, August 8th, 1969. Seems reasonable...................

Going back to about 64 a chap I did some work for asked me to take the Land Rover and trailer and collect a car from a bloke (whose name I forget) but who lived just outside Derby. It was a T53 Cooper sans engine, this would be on the Monday, I duly collected car and delivered it to a place near Manchester Airport. On the Wednesday he very mysteriuosly asked me to name a meeting point and could I be there about 3pm to meet another un-named chap who was delivering an engine and gearbox.
I waited until about 4 pm on the forecourt of a friends garage in Wilmslow when a Lancia B20 coupe arrived and a sun tanned American got out leaving a very glamourous piece in the car and said "I've got your engine ad gearbox in the trunk."
"Not mine sunshine I'm just the spanner"
Opening the boot revealed a well used but bare 1600 Alfa engine and the gearbox out of a 356 Porsche.
At that moment the fella that had asked me to collect the car etc arrived, looked at the disperate bits and said to me" Can you put this in the Cooper in time for Silverstone on Saturday" So I said "no". So Tony Settember and his girlfriend got back into the car and buggered off back to Scirocco headquarters behind which ever pub it was in a high state of dudgeon.
That's a Cooper Alfa that never was.

Edited by Sharman, 16 May 2009 - 16:11.

[Vitesse2]

So Tony Settember and his girlfriend got back into the car and buggered off back to Scirocco headquarters behind which ever pub it was in a high state of dudgeon.

The Seven Stars on Goldhawk Road.

[ensign14]

As represented in the Scirocco badge.

[MDixon]

We were at the Masters event at Magny Cours last September.
In the garage with Ron Maydon, the current owner of the T86C was Fred Place, who bought it from the Cooper works and converted it for Formula 5000 in 1970.
Fascinating discussions about then and now.

[Allen Brown]

Did Fred recognise it as the car he drove? I'd be very interested if he did.

[Giraffe]

Question largely but not entirely restricted to Allen; which was the late Cooper-BRM that John Scott-Davies campaigned in and around 1970? I cannot identify it from your site, largely I suppose due to the fact (IIRC) that he only ever entered it in club races.
It turned up at Aintree, resplendent in works Cooper livery, only for John to paint it a lurid shade of yellow!!!

[David McKinney]

It was a two-year-old Type 86B

[Giraffe]

It was a two-year-old Type 86B

Thankyou David, but which one exactly?

[Macca]

The Seven Stars on Goldhawk Road.

As it is now, thanks to MSN Livesearch.

Paul M

[David McKinney]

Thankyou David, but which one exactly?

F1-4-68

[Peter Morley]

As it is now, thanks to MSN Livesearch.

Paul M

Would this have been taken in the street behind the pub, looks very similar

[Giraffe]

F1-4-68

Thankyou David. That's put that one to bed for me. It was a massively impressive car to me at the time, as John used to drive it to Aintree on the road from his garage for Tuesday night practice with no helmet! The first time I saw it race IIRC was at Aintree in May 1970, where it was comprehensively beaten by Ken Fildes in a F2 Crossle 19F!

[Macca]

Would this have been taken in the street behind the pub, looks very similar

Yes, I think so - here is another angle:



Paul M

[MDixon]

Did Fred recognise it as the car he drove? I'd be very interested if he did.

He pointed out all of the changes, both mechanical and cosmetic, he knew every inch. His photographs of the original chassis and his Formula 5000 car were interesting to compare. He gave us a run down on fitting the gearbox and 5 litre Ford engine, the modifications to get them in and the handling problems that resulted.

[Allen Brown]

He pointed out all of the changes, both mechanical and cosmetic, he knew every inch. His photographs of the original chassis and his Formula 5000 car were interesting to compare. He gave us a run down on fitting the gearbox and 5 litre Ford engine, the modifications to get them in and the handling problems that resulted.

That's very interesting - and good to hear. In the late 1980s, it was reported that the chassis of the T86C had been swapped with that of a T90. I have always doubted the story, but Fred Place's recognition of changes made to the car has finally put the lid on that.

[MDixon]

I've just been sent this photo of T86C from 1970, Hockenheim F5000
The photo is from Fred Place, who is the driver.

[timf5000]

I've just been sent this photo of T86C from 1970, Hockenheim F5000
The photo is from Fred Place, who is the driver.

My records (F5000 Fact Book from the Formula One Register) show that Fred Place was entered as the driver but crashed in heat 1 after 8 laps and did not start the second heat. But if Fred sent you the photo perhaps it's not him!!

[MDixon]

I've got him recorded as doing 8 laps in both races, I'll try to contact Fred through a friend to get an answer.
That is definately Fred Place in the T86C, at Hockenheim in 1970, I've been sent a few more photos from the same set. I think that was the last race it appeared in F5000, it was stolen, returned and then no more racing for many years.

[Allen Brown]

I don't see any reason to think that it isn't him. That's a Cooper T86B , it's number 17 and it's at Hockenheim.

Hockenheim results

[MDixon]

He did compete in both races. In race 1 he suffered front wheel damage from impact with David Prophet, this was repaired in time to run in race 2.

[MDixon]

Race 2 F5000 at Hockenheim 1970.
Cooper T86C without the nose extension in the pit lane with engine problems.