30 replies to this topic

[Formula Once]

Anyone has an Autosprint reporting on the Ferrari 308 GTBi/4 making its debut in the 1978 Targa Florio (rally) and/or winning the Rally di Monza in 1979? Or maybe even the car's launch if there was any? I would be very interested in these reports and am grateful for any trouble you are willing to take to look them up. Thanks!

[cheapracer]

Bjorn Waldergard ran a white Ferrari 308 in a San Remo Rally 1983 against the Lancia 037's and long Quattro's. It suprised everyone because of how fast it was on the dirt sections.

http://www.motorspor...?search_id=REMO

http://www.motorspor...gard-in-ferrari

and Jean Claude Andruet almost won the Cosica Rally in '82
http://board.s14powe...ead.php?p=61742

Some other great Group 4 pics on that page too.

[Damien Duigan]

Originally posted by Formula Once
Anyone has an Autosprint reporting on the Ferrari 308 GTBi/4 making its debut in the 1978 Targa Florio (rally) and/or winning the Rally di Monza in 1979? Or maybe even the car's launch if there was any? I would be very interested in these reports and am grateful for any trouble you are willing to take to look them up. Thanks!

No luck with those reports, but the same Michelotto-built 308 was used in both events, this being s/n 20951 (the first of 15 or 16 examples) built circa 1978 for Roberto Liviero in Italy. The car has had several owners since and used to belong to Albert Uderzo, for all you Asterix fans out there.

Cheers,
Damien

[Formula Once]

20951 was actually the first of 11 Group 4 cars, 4 more being built to Group B regs later on. If anyone has any reports on the 1978/79 events mentioned, that would be fantastic.

[Bruno]

2/9/79 rallye de Monza:
Gabriele "Lelle" Pinto/Penariol - -308 GTB - 20951 - n°4 - PD 499 594 - 1er

pics AutoSprint
http://brunodaytona6...pregliasco.html

[Arjan de Roos]

The 308 GTB race/rallye history starts with the 308 GT4 prepared for a intended Le Mans entry in 1974. Chassis 08020 was built to Gr.5 specs by NART of Luigi Chinetti. This was a car with a wet sump engine. It also used Daytona pistons and 512 BB brake master cylinders just to indicate the project engineering. Body parts in steel were replaced with aluminium remakes. For better grip a rear wing and a front spoiler were added. At Le Mans it retired in the fourth hour with clutch troubles (in 38th pos.). In 1975 it was entered again fir Cluxton and Gagliardi to drive. It did practice and set a reasonable time, however the ACO now wanted this car to start in Group 5. This led to a withdrawal of NART at that race (4 cars had been entered).

Ferrari did homologate the 308 GTB into group 4 at the beginning of 1976. Ferrari had made a Gr. 4 test car that was shaken down at Fiorano (chassis 22711) : dry sump, roll cage, larger brakes, fuel cells, etc. I doubt if there was a presentation, but Assistenza Tecnica did issue a release with details for Versione Sport, modificazione per il 308. An engine updating kit was available to customers. 22711 should have been entered in the 1978 Le Mans 24 hours.

As is much the case in the history of Ferrari: it had changed its mind in the 308 racing project. Cars were being prepared at the factory (at Assistenza Clienti under Gaetano Florini instead of the Reparto Corse, the racing department). Cars were delivered and racing maintenance as well as further development was left over to the customer.

Bring in Michelotto. He started to develop a rally version of the GTB, as he had experience in that field with the Stratos. 20951 (-1-) was the first car they prepared (also the first Ferrari built up by Michelotto!) : looking as the street cars, same dimensions but with developped engine (315 bhp at 8.000 rpm), suspension and interior as well as detachable lighter body work. Michelotto started out with the bare chassis.

Roberto Liviero and Raffaele "Lele" Pinto drove this car well through 1978 and 1979 before being sold to Grosoli. Pinto had won the 1979 Rally di Monza and came 2nd in the Monaco-Vienna-Budapest rally . Andruet and Biche did the Targa Florio in it and even led the rally before a fire started and forced them to retire. Grosoli and Gabriel drove it in several rallyes.
In 1981 Pozzi had acquired the car and let Andruet and Biche do a rally in it again (Hunsruck Rally).
Patrick Tambay seems to have participated in the Madonna di Campoglio rally in 1982. Then it came into the collection of Uderzo, the artist who created comic figure Asterix (with Gosciny).

Ferrari had noted these pretty good first results (2nd in the 1978 Rallye di Monza) and decided to back Michelotto as far as they could. Andruet also enthused Daniel Marin at Pozzi which led to Pozzi buying Michelotto GTB's that were to win many rally's in the early eighties.

-2- 19051 Grosoli: winner 1980 and 1981 Piancavallo, 1981 and 1982 Targa Florio;
-3- 19913 Liviero: winner 1983 Mille Miglia;
-4- 26713 Pozzi: winner 1981 12 hours of Ieper and Tour de France, 1982 Cevennes and 2nd Targa Florio;
-5- 21071 Pozzi: winner 1982 Tour de France and Rally du Var, 2nd Tour de Corse;
-6- 20373 Pozzi: Testing and crashed;
-7- 31559 Garage Franchorchamps;
-8- 18380 Pedretti;
-9- 31135 Pozzi: winner Mont Blanc Rally;
-10- 18869 Pro Motor Sport: winner several minor Italian rallies;
-11- 18971 Pro Motor Sport: winner several minor Italian rallies, destroyed in 1985;
-12- 22409 Pro Motor Sport: winner several minor Italian rallies;
-13- 18905 Cobra Racing: used in SCCA racing;
-14- 18847 Pro Motor Sport: used by Waldegaard in Monza Rally;
-15- 21883 Sold to USA and used in local racing from 1986 to 1993.

-10-, -11-, -12-and -14 built to Group B specs with the Quatrovalvole as basis.

[Formula Once]

Thanks Bruno, once again you deliver the goods!

And thanks Arjan. Another story I was told when researching 20951 and the GTB/4 in general was this:

http://www.rallyferr...om/history.html

What do you think about this chronologically? I can not imagine Pozzi starting all this sometime in the late seventies and then the first car going to Liviero, with Pozzi only buying his first car in 1981. Any thoughts?

As for Tambay driving the car, see my other post on the 308. I have been told about this event (was it a rally even?) but no one knows any details or has any pictures or reports. It may be one of those things once mentioned by a website and then copied by any 'specialist' ever since, so I wonder if anyone knows anything more. I mean, even Bruno could not find a report in Autosprint and this is 1982, when Tambay was a Ferrari driver.

As far as I know, the last event 20951 did before being sold to Uderzo, was the rallysprint of Nimes at the end of October 1982, Andruet coming third I believe. I have got pictures and a report here and by now 20951 was painted in the 1982-Pozzi livery (full blue/white, Pioneer) rather than the red and white colors in which the car ran in the 1981 rallies it did. Three years ago, the car has been restored to new in the Netherlands and it is still in the Pioneer colors.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Formula Once

http://www.rallyferr...om/history.html

What do you think about this chronologically? I can not imagine Pozzi starting all this sometime in the late seventies and then the first car going to Liviero, with Pozzi only buying his first car in 1981. Any thoughts?

Andruet got his first taste of the rally GTB in 1980. Then the ball started to roll. Pozzi bought the used 20951 and ordered extra cars. If there was a real delay I do not know. Still Pozzi was also involved in the 512 BB/LM project that also asked special input from its customers.
As the article mentions: Ferrari was not free to develop a rally car competing the Stratos and the 131 of sister and mother companies Lancia and Fiat. Politically Enzo had to solve this and Michelotto was the solution.

[url]As for Tambay driving the car, see my other post on the 308. I have been told about this event (was it a rally even?) but no one knows any details or has any pictures or reports. It may be one of those things once mentioned by a website and then copied by any 'specialist' ever since, so I wonder if anyone knows anything more. I mean, even Bruno could not find a report in Autosprint and this is 1982, when Tambay was a Ferrari driver.

I do not have this info from the net. It could however be an appearance of Patrick in a prepped 308 at a skiing party. As you may know Madonna di Campoglio is the resort where nowadays Ferrari holds their annual skiing party. Maybe already back in 1982 did F1 drivers turn up there? Should be a good interview question. He must be available through the mairie of Cannet.

[url]As far as I know, the last event 20951 did before being sold to Uderzo, was the rallysprint of Nimes at the end of October 1982.

Cannot confirm yet.

[Formula Once]

So for sure the timeline of the story at rallyferrari.com is not entirely correct, Arjan, as it suggests that it was Pozzi who got Michelotto to develop this car, being advised by Ferrari to do so, whereas the meeting between Marin and Enzo probably took place only after Andruet had done the 1980 Targa Florio in 20951. Maybe Pozzi's interest just took the project to the next level (20951 was tested by Ferrari people at Fiorano shortly after that 1980 Targa Florio rally).

Regarding the 'Tambay at Madonna di Campiglio'-thing, whatever happened it may not have have been anything serious, but I'll ask Patrick anyway.

As for the rallysprint in Nimes (October 23/24, 1982), it is 100% certain Andruet drove 20951 in that event, I have got reports and pictures (including mention of the chassis 20951), but have no clue how to post them here.

[Arjan de Roos]

Pozzi was heavily involved but Michelotto only moved after approval of Ferrari. Mind that this project was all about cars being delivered to the doorstep and further development was to be carried out by the customers themselves.
The Pozzi mechanics and engineers were busy doing right that after purchase of the cars. Only Ferrari giving help through Michelotto.
Also Mr. Florini's help and enthusiasm was all important. He helped via the customer service side-door.

Andruet drove the car, then enthused Marin who then went into this project.

Have a look at the 308 GTB register. In the Gallery there are pictures of some racing versions including 22711 that was intended for LM development.
http://www.r-design....08/index_e.html

[Arjan de Roos]

Daniel Marin did "find" the 308 as a new battle ground for Pozzi in 1980. He told Mr. Charles Pozzi about its potential as experienced by Andruet. Marin then went to Maranello to talk to Enzo Ferrari. Ferrari at first refused: "We are part of the FIAT group now and the rallies are reserved for Lancia." During the same conversation Marin changed subject and later returned to the subject. Ferrari said: "I cannot give you my autorisation. But you are a free man. I cannot forbid you." Marin left Ferrari's office and saw Florini standing close to the door. He asked Florini the same question. Florini started to laugh and replied: "If he has not forbidden you officially, it means YES!"

With a loaned car Ecurie Ch. Pozzi tried out the water: second at Costa Brava and a win in Sicily.
Then they went to Corsica where all said that the 308 was too heavy. Andruet said: "It will win". While Biche his co-driver confirmed: " The 308 is so quick that I have a hard time announcing the pace notes. The first time this happens to me."
After 5 specials Andruet had a 1'30" lead on the Stratos of Darniche. Only then to slow down: a plastic petrol filter had been mounted that had started to leak internally: plastic was dissolved and led into the filter: aDNF.

These results led to the decision to purchase the first 308.

Rally Quatro Regione: the best rally by Andruet probably. Upon arrival at Sicily a nasty surprise: Pregliasco, Italian champion rallywas already familiarizing himself to the track in a 308... Just as Andruet was able to see the European championship in his sight, Ferrari mixed in their stride to decide the championship. A thing Pozzi never had cleared with Ferrari.
The first evening, Jean-Claude, while in the lead, arrived at a special with three minutes delay. The police had stopped him while he was warming up his tyres on the liaison. At the morning of the third day the gap with Pregliasco had fallen to 50 seconds. It wasnt enough and only 45 km to go on specials. However Andruet would make the 308 fly. He won by 5 seconds, got out from the car, vomitted. Everybody cried, even Florini. Pregliasco came by to congratulate.

[Arjan de Roos]

Maybe two other interesting facts:

Lancia and Abarth at that time 1980-1982 were developping one of the best rally cars of the decade: the 037. It strikes how one of the prototypes (I think ES036 or ES037) had a bodywork so closely resembling the 308. The ES036 chassis was designed thinking of holding the 308 engine, but dropped due to weight reasons.

A meeting with Charles Pozzi and Enzo Ferrari around 1981 when the 308 Gr.4 was discussed, Ferrari was somewhat annoyed with Pozzi having lowered the weight of the 308 and teased him: "You asked me a light car, I give you 1100 kg, you make it 940 kg." Pozzi: "And if we would turbocharge it?" The 288 GTO was born.

[Morten Eskildsen]

Dear all,

During my constant 'googling' exercises, I found this splendid conversation. As you will notice, I am behind the 308 being prepared at www.rallyferrari.com. If my site expresses incorrect meanings, I am certainly interested in reversing these mistakes.

All the best from sunny Copenhagen.

[Bruno]

Not Found

The requested URL / was not found on this server.

[fausto]

Originally posted by Bruno
Not Found

The requested URL / was not found on this server.

there's a surplus dot, http://www.rallyferrari.com works fine

[Morten Eskildsen]

Thanks Fausto

[Formula Once]

Thank you everyone, so far all the information here is much appreciated.

[RobertS]

In 1981 Pozzi had acquired the car and let Andruet and Biche do a rally in it again (Hunsruck Rally).

1981 Rallye Hunsrück >
http://picasaweb.goo...SRCKRALLYE1981#


http://picasaweb.goo...992998254859394


http://picasaweb.goo...993114218976466


Visit My Websitehttp://picasaweb.google.com/ALEXANDERRAMON80/HUNSRCKRALLYE1981#5154993277427733826

1981 Rallye Hunsrück >
http://www.fotocommu...


http://www.fotocommu...isplay=11939213

And a slide from my archive >
http://pics.livejour...21/pic/0007gyap

[Bruno]

rallye d'Hunsbruck: J-C. Andruet/Denise Emmanuelli sn 26713

[RobertS]

1981 Rallye Hunsrück >







1985 Barum Rallye

30 - Roberto Roti - Massimo Sghedoni

Edited by RobertS, 22 November 2009 - 21:50.

[Bruno]

at barum rallye, date and result??

thank

[RobertS]

Bruno,

XV. Barum Rallye 1985 - Roti - Sghedoni 6th >

http://old.czechrall...85_vysledky.htm

Edited by RobertS, 23 November 2009 - 09:46.

[Carles Bosch]

at barum rallye, date and result??

thank

21st-22nd June


Carles.

[RS2000]

A very interesting and useful detailed summary of car histories. We seem to be a little short on the numbers required for Gp 4 homologation (but what's new about that...).
Pleased to see reference to J-C Andruet's co-driver Michel Petit ("Biche") here - a heroine of mine, as one of the few co-drivers who actually won a major rally (73 Monte) by goading her driver back into trying again when he had effectively given up after a puncture.

[Bruno]

thank RobertS and Carles.


at RS2000 "Biche" is Mlle Chantal Bouchetal

[Tim Murray]

at RS2000 "Biche" is Mlle Chantal Bouchetal

Every reference I've ever seen lists Michèle Petit (sometimes Michèle Espinosi-Petit) as the 'Biche' who won the 1973 Monte with Andruet. Were there perhaps two 'Biches'?

[RobertS]

21st-22nd June


Carles.

Carles,

21st-23rd June
http://old.czechrall...harmonogram.htm

Robert

[glyn parham]

Just thought that I would add a couple of photos from Ypres 1981 of Andruet's car for you.


Glyn

[Carles Bosch]

thank RobertS and Carles.


at RS2000 "Biche" is Mlle Chantal Bouchetal

"Biche" is the alias for Mlle. Michèle Petit, Chantal Bouchetal being another french female codriver...


Carles.

[Carles Bosch]

Carles,

21st-23rd June
http://old.czechrall...harmonogram.htm

Robert

Robert, thankyou for the precission...


Carles.

[Bruno]

sorry, I always thought that was Bouchetal "Biche"