17 replies to this topic

[Richard Jenkins]

Occasionally, a recent driver causes me no end of hassle trying to find out his details.

Now, originally, I had down that Herb Hill, erstwhile sprint racer was from Redlands, California & was born in 1921.
However that chap has died a month ago & was a nuclear biologist. His obits said nothing about a racing career, however short and whilst I accept this is not necessarily an automatic rule-out, it does make me ponder.

However, I have seen Hill as being from Redlands, as he won a race in 1941. However he also raced stockcars in the mid 50's, and was registered as being from Las Vegas, NV. Then in 1962 he was back in the frey & coming from McHenry, Illinois. Finally, he raced in 1964 as being from Indianapolis, Indiana!!!!

So, are there four Herb Hills? Is the 1941 man the same as the 1962 (and Indy 500 attemptee, hence my interest) man? Is the 1950 man the same as either?
Is the man who has just died THE Herb Hill? If not, who on earth is?

Ideas anyone?

[fines]

NOT easy!

All I have on Herb Hill is that he won the 1955 ARA (American Racing Assoc.) Sprint Car title, a (Northern) California championship, then appeared at a couple of USAC Sprints in the Midwest the following year, e.g. Winchester (IN) on May 20 - perhaps explainable by him straying around Indy, trying to fetch a ride? Next he appears in a few USAC Champ Car events in 1959 (IL, WI & IN), in a car owned by Robert "Pete" Peterson, who hailed from Chicago I think? The car was called Hill Carpets Special, so my money is on Herb sponsoring his own ride, and selling carpets "at daytime". This combo appears again three years later (IN & WI), then Hill is succeeded in the cockpit by Ralphie Liguori (FL), Bill Cheesbourg (AZ) and George Morris (IN) - so, a hotchpotch of localities, not really conclusive. :

[Jim Thurman]

Congratulations Richie, you've brought up one I intended to contact you about, but had not yet as it would only add to confusion

I believe there were definitely two if not three different drivers named Herb Hill.

In the 1949 West Coast Racing Annual, a Herb Hill is profiled in the Stock Car section. He is described as 36 years old (meaning b. 1912 or 1913), that he began racing in (Track) Roadsters at "the old Ascot" in 1941 (in this case, this refers to Southern Ascot Speedway). He is listed as owning the Hill Transportation Co. and also owning and operating a business selling motorscooters - Skooterland - which was located on Firestone Boulevard (I believe a listing in the SSDI of b. 17 Mar 1912, d. 15 Nov 1988 to likely be this man).

I think the Herb Hill listed for the NASCAR race is likely this Herb Hill, but not the same as the Herb Hill that raced in the Midwest and attempted the Indy 500.

Now, to the 1955 ARA champion mentioned by Michael. Despite being somewhat close regionally (about 450-500 miles North of the Los Angeles area), I have my doubts this is the same man as the Stock Car driver I mention above. It's too bad this did not come up earlier as Don Radbruch would have been well acquainted with the ARA Herb Hill.

I believe he might have relocated to the Midwest, but I also believe there was a Herb Hill of Midwestern origins.

There, that certainly clears it all up!

Obviously, I don't know a lot either...

[Richard Jenkins]

Well, I think we're all agreed that the chap who has just died was no racing driver, so that's one set of dates that can go in the dustbin.

If one is a transporter & the other a carpet man, I also wonder if there are two. But aside from that, it appears doubtful that the Herb Hill that I, essentially, am interested in is neither of the Herb Hills listed below??

I think I may go back to making that entry blank. It's a shame the 1962 Indy guy has no more info on him other than being from McHenry.

Thanks guys for the input. Better raise the mystery bar by one again.. :

[fines]

Not so fast, Richie...

For one thing, I'm pretty certain that the guy I profiled in my post is just one person! There may have been another one racing touring (sorry, stock!) cars, but that's outside my scope, and the data for the open-wheel man is quite consistent: outlaw champion in '55, then taking a chance with the new "openness" of USAC in '56, banging about for a few years before giving it all up. Heck, there are even a few years in between in which he could have raced stockers!

Also, I think he may well have been from Redlands: in that era, if you wanted to run Sprint Cars and were from So. Cal., you simply HAD to travel north to meet the ARA guys! He may then have relocated to the Midwest to have a go at Indy, before returning to California and nuclear biology! Also, don't forget that drivers are sometimes listed under the hometown of their entrants!!! I have seen literally hundreds of such examples! So, the "Indy Herb" is listed as coming from McHenry (IL), and his car owner I have (tentatively) from Chicago (IL) - coincidence?

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by fines
Not so fast, Richie...

Also, I think he may well have been from Redlands: in that era, if you wanted to run Sprint Cars and were from So. Cal., you simply HAD to travel north to meet the ARA guys! He may then have relocated to the Midwest to have a go at Indy, before returning to California and nuclear biology!

Surely there would have been something about the 2008 man's career, or carpet background or transporting background in the obituary?

The 2008 man appears to have gone into it from college. I really don't think it's the same man or men as the above speedsters.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines


Also, I think he may well have been from Redlands: in that era, if you wanted to run Sprint Cars and were from So. Cal., you simply HAD to travel north to meet the ARA guys! He may then have relocated to the Midwest to have a go at Indy, before returning to California and nuclear biology!

Not so fast, Michael ...

Granted the CRA was still a mix of roadsters and Sprints through 1955 or 1956, but if the ARA was thought of as the place one HAD to race, that's news to me. And, true, the CRA's "glory days" were from the late 50's to mid-60's, but other than CRA drivers heading North to "cherry pick" some purses, I don't recall a lot of interchange (this with the caveat that I haven't seen much in the way of results from ARA races from '52 until it after morphed into NARC. Phil Harms mentioned he was considering compiling ARA/NARC winners).

The ARA/NARC was always perceived as the weaker circuit, albeit with some very talented drivers, some good owners and some good wrenches. And I'm not being chauvinistic coming from a Southern California background (I've lived in both regions)

I've put out a query on Herb Hill(s). Hopefully this won't cause even more confusion.

Oh, and one other bit of info...the Herb Hill listed as residing in McHenry, Illinois was ranked 149th in USAC National Midget standings in 1965.

[fines]

Gosh, clean forgot about CRA!!! Complete mental blackout, I'm afraid...

Of course you're right with everything you say, Jim! And to think that Herb Hill also raced Track Roadsters... I could (should?) kick myself!

[CarsonGP]

I came across some pictures with my father's things. Three of them have handwriting on the back which says Herb Hill driver. I believe these photos were taken at what is now called the Milwaukee Mile. The car is the no. 69 Grizzly Brake Special. The handwritten caption also mentions Robert "Pete" Peterson designer builder. There is another name that is hard to read. It looks like Harry Wborrel chassis specialist form Europe or England. Judging by the width of the tires, the date couldn't have been much past 1960. The photographer is unknown, but the photos look to me like they were taken by a professional, possibly as part of a Grizzzly Brake promotion. My father was President of Praefke Brake and Supply Corp. which relined brake shoes using Grizzly Brake products. 

[Ray Bell]

"Not available...

 

Typical result of trying to link a pic from Facebook. Sometimes the are visible for a short time, but they always go away.

[Jim Thurman]

I'm glad this came up again, as I am able to research a bit more on at least one of the Herb Hills now.

Congratulations Richie, you've brought up one I intended to contact you about, but had not yet as it would only add to confusion

I believe there were definitely two if not three different drivers named Herb Hill.

In the 1949 West Coast Racing Annual, a Herb Hill is profiled in the Stock Car section. He is described as 36 years old (meaning b. 1912 or 1913), that he began racing in (Track) Roadsters at "the old Ascot" in 1941 (in this case, this refers to Southern Ascot Speedway). He is listed as owning the Hill Transportation Co. and also owning and operating a business selling motorscooters - Skooterland - which was located on Firestone Boulevard (I believe a listing in the SSDI of b. 17 Mar 1912, d. 15 Nov 1988 to likely be this man).

I think the Herb Hill listed for the NASCAR race is likely this Herb Hill, but not the same as the Herb Hill that raced in the Midwest and attempted the Indy 500.

Now, to the 1955 ARA champion mentioned by Michael. Despite being somewhat close regionally (about 450-500 miles North of the Los Angeles area), I have my doubts this is the same man as the Stock Car driver I mention above. It's too bad this did not come up earlier as Don Radbruch would have been well acquainted with the ARA Herb Hill.

I believe he might have relocated to the Midwest, but I also believe there was a Herb Hill of Midwestern origins.

There, that certainly clears it all up!

Obviously, I don't know a lot either...

My assessment of the Las Vegas Herb Hill being one in the same as the driver mentioned in the 1949 West Coast Racing Annual has been proven correct. His obituary in the Las Vegas Review-Journal matches the dates, mentioning he was an oil distributor, organized a motorcycle search and rescue group and was a NASCAR official in Southern Nevada in the 1960s and 1970s. It notes he was born in Florence, California and moved to Las Vegas in 1948.

 

Digging back further, this Herb Hill advertised his motorcycle business on Firestone Blvd. in the Las Vegas newspaper in the early 1940s, then opened a Las Vegas motorcycle dealership. He became the starter, and later an official, for local short track for stock car racing, continued to race motorcycles and organize races for motorcycles, and yes, he was in the NASCAR race held at Las Vegas Park in 1955. He also ran for mayor in 1957.

 

This leaves us with the ARA champion Herb Hill, from Northern California, being the one that headed to the Midwest...

 

...or a third, Midwestern based Herb Hill.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 13 September 2024 - 18:54.

[Jim Thurman]

The above Herb Hill (1912-1988), raced out of Huntington Park, Los Angeles and Las Vegas. Raced early track roadsters/jalopies pre-WWII at Southern Ascot (South Gate) and Colton. Raced stock cars in 1946-1948, mainly at Carrell Speedway, but did trek to Oakland Stadium for at least one of their stock car races. Listed as owning "a trucking concern and scooter business." His last mention racing in Southern California is June 1948, which meshes with the date given for the move to Las Vegas. But, it gets better...

 

Herb Hill of Stockton turns up for the first time one month later, July 1948. He raced track roadsters around Central/Northern California (Oakland, Stockton, Belmont). And, making it even better yet, this Herb Hill was reported to have gone to Chicago in 1950, where he won a roadster race at Soldier Field. He returned to Stockton, and is the driver who won the 1955 ARA championship.

 

This doesn't clear up whether he was the USAC Herb Hill or whether there was another, Midwestern Herb Hill. Or, if there were two just a few years apart.

 

One other tidbit. I've never seen a driver Herb Hill listed for Redlands. The only Herb Hill that turned up for Redlands was a football player.

[CarsonGP]

I was looking for a way to upload photos of Herb Hill directly to this forum but I could not figure out how to do it. When I clicked on the picture icon, a pop up box asked for a URL. I didn't see any other option. I'm open to suggestions. The link worked for me but facebok knows I'm the one who posted the pics. Other people also told me they had a problem sharing the facebook post.

[Ray Bell]

You go to Postimage and upload the pics, then copy and paste the resultant line ('hotlink for forums') where you want the picture to appear in your post...

 

You don't need to use the forum image codes for this, they're already in the coded line.

[Jim Thurman]

I think I have finally solved the Herb Hill conundrum. I feel there were just two, with the Stockton, California driver that was the 1955 ARA Champion relocating to McHenry, Illinois and competing in USAC in midgets, sprints and championship cars as well as other midget associations.

 

An item in the May 5, 1960 edition of the Sterling (Illinois) Daily Gazette previewing a midget race at Rockford (Illinois) Speedway features this: "Also scheduled for a return to the track is Herb Hill, Stockton, Calif., hot rod ace who has now turned to midgets and championship cars."

 

The photos CarsonGP is trying to post will be of this Herb Hill, as he tried to qualify the Grizzly Brake car for some USAC Championship races.

 

The So Cal/Las Vegas Herb Hill (1912-1988) was a fairly large fellow, even portly (think Myron Fohr), who was wearing glasses in the one photo I've seen of him.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 14 September 2024 - 00:05.

[CarsonGP]

I never did figure out how to upload directly to this forum but this link to Google docs should work so I deleted the reply which included the facebook links. The first picture shows left to right, Simon " Si" Gary - President of Scientific Control Laboratories, Inc. a company located in Chicago, IL. Gary may have been an investor. Herb Hill - driver is standing in the middle. on the right is Robert "Pete" Peterson - designer builder. This information comes from notes on the back of this photo that appear to have been written by my father Gordon E Praefke. Note the brake shoes and boxes held in the center of this photo. These photos were most likely taken by a professional photographer as part of a Grizzly Brake promotion. Images of Hill and Peterson are also in the rest of the photos. I would not describe this Herb Hill as portly. The other people in the photos are unidentified. Since all the other photos with these were taken in Milwaukee WI at locations that I recognize, I assume these photos were taken at the race track now known as the Milwaukee Mile. The photographer is unknown. If these photos are published, I think credit as "Provided by Praefke Brake and Supply Corp." would be adequate.

 

https://docs.google...._-if0/pub?pli=1

Edited by CarsonGP, 16 September 2024 - 19:23.

[Ray Bell]

Please do it the easy way...

 

Just go to Postimage.org, create an account, upload the pics, copy 'hotlink to forums' and paste it in your post.

[Ray Bell]

Here are two of them...