87 replies to this topic

[Mark 13]

I have noticed over the past couple of months that there is a Group 7 BRM for sale.

In the heady days of the Foulston backed Sportscar series in the UK, a BRM in Uni-Petrol livery was raced by Mike Wheatley. I seem to remember that for cost reasons all the cars ran with small block engines but that they later re-emerged with big blocks when the Supersports series was started. More recently Kalisch ran a very smart looking dark blue BRM with some success. Is this the car for sale?

The great thing about the Supersports Cup has been the variety of machines being raced. The WSC masters series has watered this down recently by stealing the Group 4 cars, but in terms of the big banger Group 7 cars we have seen March 707 (Amon), 707/717 (Kelleners - which I saw at Croft in 1971 as a 7 year old), BRM P154, McLaren M8F, McLaren M8D, McLaren M8C, McLaren M6B all with big block engines.

[Mark 13]

I have just dug out an old pack of Top Trumps, with the strange title of hot rods, which depicts Group 6 and 7 cars. There are 2 BRM's.
1. 6.8 litre P154 No. 38 - 1971 (White)
2. 7.6 litre P167 No. 2 - 1972 (Blue/Silver Alcan livery).

The P154 does not look much like the P154 shown in Motorsport as for sale.

[David McKinney]

I believe there were two P154s, one of which was rebuilt into the (only) P167

[mfd]

Originally posted by David McKinney
I believe there were two P154s, one of which was rebuilt into the (only) P167

Neither of the originals look like the one currently for sale!

[Pedro 917]

I read once that one P154 is resting somewhere at the bottom of the ocean.

[mfd]

Originally posted by mfd
Neither of the originals look like the one currently for sale.

P154 in 1970 http://vsrnonline.co...C_V8N4_p178.jpg
P167 in 1971 http://vsrnonline.co...C_V9N9_p371.jpg

[rdmotorsport]

Sid Taylor(before Theodore days) had 2 P154s and at the time well engineered by I think Julian Randles and Ron Bennett among others he traded them on to A.W.Brown (for some wierd reason referred to as monkey)!, The works Castrol cars were ran in interserie with David Hepworth and feel sure his sons may still have one of the chassis.

[Frank S]

Here's a photo from an eBaY sale of a few years back:



I though it was unusual enough to warrant a bid. It came in at $16.00 US, including postage and handling.

Model # Art. E 34

--
Frank Sheffield
San Diego CA
USA


"You know my method, Watson.
It is founded upon
the observation of trifles."
—Sherlock Holmes—

[Pedro 917]

German magazine "Motor Klassik" from November, 1992 had an article on the BRM P154 of Jöst Kalisch.
The article reports that 2 P154s were made and one P167. The latter went down in a cargoship in the North Atlantic somewhere in the mid-seventies and rests a couple of miles deep on the bottom of the ocean. The subject P154 came from a Swedish collectioner into Kalisch's hands. They don't mention the whereabouts of the other P154. I saw Kalisch's car in many historic events but it disappeared from the grids a couple of years ago. I guess it will be the Kalisch car that's for sale.

[Jerry Entin]

The article above that states that Brian Redman drove the BRM P-167 to a third place finish isn't true. Brian drove the BRM to a fourth place finish at Monterey in 1971. He was behind Peter Revson and Jackie Stewart and Denis Hulme. The next CanAm at Riverside Howden Ganley did drive the car too a fine 3rd place finish.

I also don't believe that one of the P-154's was used to make the P-167. The P-167 never belonged to Sid Taylor. He was lent the car for the two westcoast CanAm's in 1971 by Lou Stanley.

[rdmotorsport]

Hi Jerry,

Then my brain is becoming fuddled I always thought Sid had and owned 2 P154s I never realised this was a loan from Big Lou although I feel sure both Ron and Julian did run the car for Sid.

Rodney.

[Jerry Entin]

The BRM P-167 at Riverside in 1971
Ron Bennett head mechanic and Charlie Agapiou and then Jerry Entin on the right is Howden Ganley talking to Ray Caldwell.

Rodney:
I don't know anything of Sid owning the BRM P-154's. He had been running a McLaren Mk 8 for Peter Gethin in the 1971 Interserie. Sid had asked Teddy Mayer if he could bring that car to Riverside and Monterey. He was told no. McLaren didn't want to race against their own car.
That is when Sid asked Lou Stanley if he could borrow the BRM P-167. I made the American arrangements to run the two westcoast races. Ron Bennett came over and he is the one who worked on the car. Julian Randles didn't come over in 1971.

photo Cliff Startin

Edited by Jerry Entin, 15 April 2016 - 19:29.

[Nordic]

http://rupert8766.fo.../p27529005.html

Mick wilds driving a BRM P154.

This was taken in 1982 at Brands Hatch

[mfd]

Originally posted by Nordic
Wilds driving a BRM P154...taken in 1982 at Brands Hatch

In this photo it looks just like they did in 1970 (apart from Castrol missing)

and Jerry, as I always wanted to know...what was General Pants? The first time I saw this photo I'd convinced myself it said "Paints"

[rdmotorsport]

Dear Jerry,

Wonderful photo and i must remember not to get my P154 and P167 muddled,I should know the difference and Julian must have been rather young when he came over in 1971?
Best wishes,

Rodney

p.s. seeing you are that side of the pond could you give me an update on another ex BRM and Brabham man Roger Bailey he was involved in the running ARS but became quite ill , I saw him last at nazareth P.A. when Mario won this must have been circa 1994?

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by mfd

and Jerry, as I always wanted to know...what was General Pants? The first time I saw this photo I'd convinced myself it said "Paints"

Looks like they're still around - http://www.generalpants.com.au
For the Australian winter....

[Jerry Entin]

Howden Ganley driving the General Pants sponsored BRM at Riverside in 1971

 

MFD: General Pants was a clothing Store owned by a high school friend of mine named Spencer Stillman. He bought odd lots of shirts and pants from other stores and the manufacturers. He sold things at near half price. I asked him would he be interested in helping us run the BRM at Riverside. I think he had like four small stores. He said he would be glad to help us.

Sid Taylor was very worried that Lou Stanley would think we got some huge amount of monies from Spencer. Sid insisted that the lettering be put on in a type of decal that could be easily removed. This turned out not to be one of his greatest ideas, as they blew off during the race. When Howden finished 3rd Spencer Stillman was elated. He wanted Howden to come to one of his stores and take whatever he wanted. Howden got like 10 pairs of Jeans and I don't remember how many shirts.

Spencer Stillman had his sales girls come to the race and give away General Pants Tee Shirts. I am wearing one in the picture above. Everyone in the pits wanted one. These girls were very good looking and they seemed to attract all the pit crews in the garage area. Spencer also bought the Team a very nice dinner after the race at a place called The Cask and Cleaver. He also paid our hotel bill and paid to ship the car back to England. You couldn't have asked for a better sponsor.

Well, That is who General Pants were. They were a one hit wonder. They only sponsored one race. The Riverside Grand Prix of 1971.

 

photo: Pete Lyons

Edited by Jerry Entin, 15 April 2016 - 16:29.

[mfd]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
General Pants was a clothing Store owned by a high school friend of mine named Spencer Stillman.
You couldn't have asked for a better sponsor.

Thank you Jerry, a wonderful story & one I now understand you are best qualified to tell!

[Jack-the-Lad]

Didn't George Eaton drive one of these?

Jack

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally posted by rdmotorsport
p.s. seeing you are that side of the pond could you give me an update on another ex BRM and Brabham man Roger Bailey he was involved in the running ARS but became quite ill , I saw him last at nazareth P.A. when Mario won this must have been circa 1994?

He was kind enough to call in to say hello in January last year. Looking pretty good, I can forward contact details if you want them, just pm me.

Andrew

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Jack-the-Lad
Didn't George Eaton drive one of these?

Jack

Eaton drove the Castrol sponsored car in the 1970 Can Am, to no appreciable effect.
Tom

[Jack-the-Lad]

Originally posted by RA Historian
Eaton drove the Castrol sponsored car in the 1970 Can Am, to no appreciable effect.
Tom

Yes, I recall him driving it at Laguna Seca that year, which was coincidentally the Castrol Grand Prix, I believe. What a great series that was. I feel fortunate to have gone to a few of those races.

Jack.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Originally posted by Andrew Fellowes

He was kind enough to call in to say hello in January last year. Looking pretty good, I can forward contact details if you want them, just pm me.

Andrew

Glad to hear that Roger is well. I got to know him when he was running the BMW IMSA team.

Jack.

[Gregor Marshall]

Originally posted by Nordic
http://rupert8766.fo.../p27529005.html

Mick wilds driving a BRM P154.

This was taken in 1982 at Brands Hatch

Anyone know why it was sponsored by Martin Carroll?

[Pedro 917]

Originally posted by Jack-the-Lad
Didn't George Eaton drive one of these?

Jack

Of all the 1970 CanAm races, George Eaton finished only one race :a third at St Jovite.
Not the most reliable car...
Pedro Rodriguez drove the P154 on 3 occasions only : Donnybrooke (9th), Laguna Seca (5th) and Riverside (3d).
Pedro also drove the P167 in Zolder where he was entered for the Kent 300 Interseries race. He practiced the all white car but decided not to race.

[mfd]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
Pedro also drove the P167 in Zolder where he was entered for the Kent 300 Interseries race. He practiced the all white car but decided not to race.

The P167 changed quite a bit through it's first life...


Zolder 1971


Hepworth 1974

[Jerry Entin]

Mfd:
When Howden Ganley drove the car in the Interserie. BRM sent a mechanic, Reg Richardson. He was principally an engine man, and stayed with the P167 when they ran it in Interserie in 1972. Howden Ganley drove most of the races. Mike Pilbeam was the engineer and team manager on that project.

I always thought it was a pretty good car. I believe it was designed by Tony Southgate. The trouble with it being, there only was one version of it and no one had spares for it, if you needed them. It was much easier running a McLaren or Lola where others had spares at the races and you could borrow them and then replace them. With the P-167 you were on your own.

In one of the articles above it also claimed that Sid Taylor was given full factory support. This wasn't true. He was lent the car and did all the support himself. No one from BRM came to either Monterey or Riverside that year. The engine man we used was George Bolthoff and he came to both races with the car.

Also I have told this before but, the engine in the car was really the engine out of the Sid Taylor run Interserie McLaren Mk 8. Something that Teddy Mayer didn't think was funny.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 15 April 2016 - 16:21.

[mfd]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
Howden Ganley drove most of the races.

Thanks again Jerry for the memories

From photos of the car in 71, it appears Brian Redman drove at Laguna & also possibly Hockenheim & Imola too, but as both Redman & Ganley had white helmets, it is hard to be certain about the Interserie races. This was when the car was white & as you have said the responsibility of Sid Taylor.

There are other races in 1972 when the car was blue & silver & Alcan sponsored where it appears to be driven mostly by Ganley. Was the car still being run by Sid Taylor or had BRM taken it back?

[Jerry Entin]

mfd:
BRM was running the car themselves in the 1972 Interserie. When the car raced in 1972 it was run by BRM with sponsorship from Alcan. So all the personel were from BRM.

I am pretty sure it was on a boat heading for I think South America. Maybe Brazil? The ship caught fire and sunk. This was a very good car. I would think the Shadow CanAm cars designed by Tony Southgate were very similar thinking with the car made more compact.

When Brian Redman ran the car in 1971 in Europe I believe that Sid Taylor was the one in charge of the car. He probably had Julian Randles and Ron Bennett working on it. He had also been running the Mk8 McLaren for Peter Gethin in the Interserie.

He also was running a Mk 18 McLaren for Brian Redman in the F-5000 series in Europe. I never was in Europe for Interserie races. I had gone over and watched Sid Taylor run Brian Redman in the F-5000 races.
As far as the P-167 BRM goes I only helped at Monterey and Riverside with it's running. Brian Redman was also suppose to drive the car at Riverside. Jo Siffert who had finished 5th behind Brian at Monterey was killed between the two races and Brian was unable to come back for Riverside.

Lou Stanley selected Howden Ganley to run the car at Riverside. Sid Taylor and I only got the car prepared and too the race at Riverside. It was Lou Stanley's car and Howden was his driver of choice. A very good choice by the way.

Howden Ganley thinks that BRM had sent over Reg Richardson to help on the car at Riverside. I personally do not remember this.

Luc: It was the P-167 that was lost on the ship. You are right.

[Pedro 917]

More on the P154 here
It's the Kalisch car for sure.

But, reading the description, I'm all confused now, was it one of the 2 P154s that went down or was it the P167? Or did one of the P154s became the P167?

[rdmotorsport]

Jerry,

Your memory astounds me at times, considering sometimes I cannot remember what I did yesterday!

Rodney.

[rdmotorsport]

Andrew,

I would welcome Roger s contact details,

Rodney

[Doug Nye]

When did that darned ship founder?

DCN

[mfd]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
When did that darned ship founder?DCN

Needed for the book

[Doug Nye]

Eventually Mike - eventually - but right now just to ease my frustrated blood pressure 'cos I cannot pin down the date, and I need that to approach Lloyd's Register.

DCN

[mfd]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I cannot pin down the date, and I need that to approach Lloyd's Register. DCN

According to RSC in the 71, 72 Interserie and at the Südwest-Pokal Hockenheim 15/7/1973 it is described as BRM P167 #P154-02=>P167-01

The final recorded appearance, I can find is at the Goodyear Pokal, 300 km Nürburgring Date: 17/6/1974

If the second chassis was revised into the 167, then the one for sale must be the original crashed by Eaton at the last Can-Am race in 1970. Reading the information about the survivor http://www.classicca...php/carno/39012 it appears to have documents from Hepworth...so did he buy both cars? Yet raced only one...

I guess the answer to "when" depends if it is known who the prospective buyer for the sunken one was?

[Slurp1955]

One person who may throw some light on the matter is Stuart Hepworth, David's brother. I know Stuart but don't see him very often. He lives in Yorkshire and always seems to in the middle of some great scheme, be it deep-frozen yorkshire pudding, machines vending bread and soup, or more lately technology for micro-waving racing tyres (see http://www.tyre-tech...om/history.html) From vague conversations in the past, I believe the Hepworths were still owners of the BRM(s) when the ship went down, but I will try and find out more. JohnP

[dwall]

http://www.janluehn....er_BRM_P154.pdf

[John-w]

Hello,

here is a link to a scratchbuilt BRM P154 in scale 1/12th

http://www.canamcar-...154/brmp154.htm

John-w

[r.atlos]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
When did that darned ship founder?

DCN

Must have been in November 1972 on the way to the "Brazil Cup", a couple of races organized in Brazil for Interserie participants.

[mfd]

Originally posted by dwall
http://www.janluehn....er_BRM_P154.pdf

Hello David!

Reading all the documentation, it still doesn't appear clear to me. Words such as "the 154 chassis was modified" doesn't make clear if it refers to one car or in the plural (ie both) Even though the Southgate letter intimates there was plans to make a new car, as well as modifying what already existed. There is no evidence of three existing. Nor is there reference to Hepworth buying a specific number of cars, but only the remains of the project.

So I believe the one for sale is a 154 with a 167 nose & wing & the lost one had the chassis increased, track widened etc.

[rdmotorsport]

I pretty sure David(Hepworth) had both a P154 and 167 plus enough spares to build another car(154) at the time David was very close with "Big Lou" and for a while after kept this good relationship going,try reading the BRM unofficial site it even tells of the later Can Amm project.

[r.atlos]

It seems the BRM at the bottom of the ocean is something like an "urban legend". Here's the full timeline and story from Autosport:

- Issue dated 16/Nov/1972:




- Same issue under "Briefly ...":




- Issue dated 23/Nov/1972:

[mfd]

Originally posted by r.atlos
It seems the BRM at the bottom of the ocean is something like an "urban legend"

WOW Great sleuthing

[dwall]

Hello Mike!

nice find r.atlos . so what did happen to the P167, and the 1973 monoque ?

[mfd]

Originally posted by dwall
So what did happen to the P167, and the 1973 monocoque ?

This all gets more confusing. Were there two cars or three? Certainly we now know Hepworth had two. Whether one was a P154 possibly modified (or not, as there is photo evidence of one in original 154 bodywork racing in the 80's) and one P167, which may have been the Alcan car...& whether this car was new build or a drastically modified P154 remains to be seen.

What seems certain is two cars were in the damaged ship in Brest & returned to the UK. I think the Hepworth family and Mike Wheatley (to find out which one he bought) need to be contacted.
The mystery is who, if anyone, had the other car & where is it now?

[Jeremy Jackson]

So which was the metallic green P154 I saw Lol Hopkins race at Croft in May 1973? This had original P154 bodywork.

[Pedro 917]

The German magazine "Motor Klassik" reports the chassis number as P154/167.

[mfd]

The most interesting thing, apart from realising there could be another car out there, besides the one for sale, are the notes from Southgate and Hepworth ( see David Walls pdf file ) It is vague though & could be read in different ways.

This is what I think...There were 2 x P154. Possibly 154/02 was partly converted into a P154/167 and the Eaton chassis 01 left as a wreck or for spares, purchased by David Hepworth. Then a new car P167/01 was built for the 71 season. This General Pants /Alcan car, was also later sold to Hepworth. However there is no indication later, which car was actually sold to Wheatley, nor who ( if anyone) bought the second complete car.

Even though it wasn’t lost at sea, I wonder if a claim was still made at Lloyds for partial damage?

Great to have a new mystery !

[DavidH]

Here is David Hepworth in the P167 at Silverstone for the Interserie race, May 1973.