91 replies to this topic

[Flat Black]

I haven't hid the fact that I really admire the classically old-school Indy-car drivers from the mid-century era. Hurtubise is a guy who's near the top of the list for me. A real character who clung tenaciously to the front-engine roadster with his burn-gnarled hand, and who famously carted a passel of beer onto Indy Speedway prior to his last "qualification run," IIRC.

So this is a thread devoted to the late Jim Hurtubise. If you have any interesting info or insights about the man, this is the place to post 'em.

[David Birchall]

FB, did you do a search on Hurtubise on this BB? I recall quite a bit of discussion a few years ago.

I first became aware of Hurtubise after reading in a Time magazine article that he was hauled off the grid at Indy because he refused to accept that his front engined roadster would not be starting the race.

[ghinzani]

Yeah we had a big discussion about the development of the Mallard a few years back. Very interesting it was too! Oner thing though, I never really knew how much its speed depreciated per year in comparison to the rest of the field.

[Pedro 917]

Can someone confirm if this is Jim Hurtubise talking to Pedro (Daytona 500, 1971) :

[fines]

It is.

[Pedro 917]

Thanks Michael

[MPea3]

Wow. Where do I begin? I wish I knew more about him so I'll enjoy this thread.

I wasn't following racing when Herk had his accident but for a little kid the fact that it had happened only a few years previous made it ancient history. To me he was that guy who still tried to run the roadster. Then over time I heard the stories, the stories of pure guts that I respected.

Stories about his doctor telling him that he had one choice as to how his hands could be formed, and Herk, with no hesitation, asking them to be put so he could grip a wheel.

The story about how when recovering from his burns, the dead skin had to be washed off every day and re-dressed, putting him in extreme pain. The story went that he would sing the song "You Are My Sunshine" during the procedure, screaming it as the pain got worse to the point he could be heard in other areas of the hospital.

Or the story from the guy I got to know in Speedway. Big John's back yard backed up to the USAC parking lot near the Speedway, and we used to always park there on race weekends. When the subject of the old drivers came up, a huge smile came to his face and he spoke of Herk and how the local kids would go hang out at his muffler shop on Crawfordsville Road and how nice he was.

Herk as somehow the epitome of what I liked in racers, the hard charging guys who had bravery in bucketloads and seemingly would do anything to drive and win. It was the American version of what DSJ referred to as a "tiger".

So were the stories true? Close? In a way I almost don't even care, regardless of the details he'll always have that almost hero status for me.

[D-Type]

Flat Black,
As one who has heard the name and once read the 'beer at Indy' story many years ago, can I ask you to kick things off with the stories that you consider to be 'common knowledge' as many on TNF are not died in the wool Indy fans and hence not necessarily familiar with the classic tales.

[ZOOOM]

My favorite story about "Herk" was the time he drove the big rear drive Novi at Indy. It was 1963. He had put the Novi on the front row. Parnelli Jones had the pole and he and Herk met at the old White Front tavern with all the other drivers several nights before the race. After several adult beverages Herk told Parnelli that he (Herk) would lead the first lap in the race. A wager ensued for several hundred dollars.

Now '63 was one of my earlier races and we had tickets on the outside of the third turn. At the start of the race Rathmann got the jump on Herk going into one. We were all excited waiting to see them come by going into three. Then it happened. Now there were thirty three cars comming off two and heading up the backstretch. The noise was tremendous. That's when the howel began.... It was Herk in the Novi. You could hear him over the other thirty two offies.Jimmy had his foot firmly planted on the floor as they exited two. That Novi, with the 10 inch supercharger, could make an AWFULL scream. We all could hear him comming. All the way up the back stretch Herk closed on Rathmann. Rathmann took a rather high line through three and Herk was all over him like a cheap suit. Herk drove the Novi under Rathmann and put one of the most beautiful "slide jobs" on I have ever seen. Herks speed carried past Rathmann and he had to let the Novi slide up to the outside crossing in front of Rathmann in the short chute. Rathmann tried to get Herk back in four. He tried to drive under him and repay the slide job. But Herk had the Novi wound up! He drove around Rathmann in four and out dragged him down the main straight to lead the first lap. The crowd went nuts!

Alas, as usual, the Novi didn't last. Herk went out early with a mechanical....
But for one shinning moment, Herk had his $200.00, and the first lap lead!

ZOOOM

[ghinzani]

This was the original thread http://forums.autosp...light=Hurtubise

but then we talked about the Mallard in several other Indy type threads also - worth doing a BB search for Mallard as well as Hurtubise.

[fines]

ZOOOM, I think you'll have to edit your post again, for "Rathmann" read "Parnelli"!?;)

Actually, that first lap was even more remarkable than that. Herk not only got outdragged by Parnelli at the start, he was literally swamped by the field! I think he was about tenth at the first corner, yet leading by three - outstanding!

[Flat Black]

Word has it that on Bump Day, 1972, Herk wheeled a Miller sponsored car into the qualification line, but before he could make an attempt, time expired. Herk then popped open the engine compartment to reveal six cases of Miller brew where the Foyt engine should have been. He then shared the beverages with various and sundry drivers and crew members.

Could you imagine any of today's drivers even dreaming up such a scheme let alone attempting it? And, mein Gott , how would The Powers respond to such monkeyshines? Probably force the poor prankster on an apology tour through the UN and Africa.

[Jerry Entin]

ZOOOM:
This comes from Willem Oosthoek:
I presume that when you mention Rathmann you meant Jones.

Also, Herk's retirement was not mechnical. He was blackflagged because the officials said the Novi leaked oil. What really happened was that when Jim made his pitstop, oil surged forward in the engine and sloshed out of the front-mounted breather cap, leaving a pool of oil on the ground.

Andy Granatelli demonstrated after the race that there was nothing wrong with the engine. In a garage full of media people he fired up the engine and ran it wide open for five minutes. It did not throw a drop of oil.

[fines]

Yes, Andy was a great showman. Of course, the crew had ample time during and after the race to fasten a few srews and refill the reservoir. Other reports mention that the car stopped in a "plume of smoke"! The officials apparently inspected the car for two full minutes before letting it continue, and when it still spit oil they unfurled the black thing.

[Jim Thurman]

Most of Hurtubise's career, and all of his prime, came before I was old enough to follow racing (or at least pick up more detail), but to me the saddest part is that seemingly most people only know of him being "that crazy old guy with the front engined car." Much like A.J. Foyt, his legacy was tarnished by simply hanging around. But, in his early years Hurtubise was a contender and one of the best.

Jim Hurtubise was from upstate New York (Tonawanda, near Buffalo), but began his racing career in Tampa, Florida where he was stationed in the military. Eventually, he migrated West and was racing in Southern California with the CRA before heading to the Midwest. He had a good record in Sprint Cars in both CRA and USAC.

I remember seeing footage of the Milwaukee race his accident occurred in. The racing between Foyt, Rodger Ward and Hurtubise prior to the accident - flying in formation, lap after lap in the early laps, each testing each other and looking for way past or a way to pull clear - was outstanding. It ranks among the best racing I have ever seen.

[fines]

Thanks, Jim! I was waiting for that to be mentioned, and you're absolutely right: most of the Hurtubise lore is from the time after the accident, when the man we should be discussing is the pre-Milwaukee Herk. He was an extraordinary "Big Car" driver, excelling in Sprints, Champs and Indy Cars. Sadly, he had only about five years to make an impression, but he certainly did!

[Russ Snyder]

It must have been during 1975 or 1976 Indy Qualifying (we were there both years) where my Dad and I were in the fronstretch out of turn 4, Herk came flying around making good time in what appeared to be a roadster(!) Dad said all excitedly "there he goes Russ" ...then his engine blew with a large cloud of white smoke down the straightaway! All the fans around, repeat ALL, let out a groan that you could hear for miles.

A fan favorite if there ever was one. He deserved better results.

keep the stories coming....

[fines]

Originally posted by Russ Snyder
He deserved better results.

What better results?

He was a ten-time CRA Sprint car winner, finishing in the top ten in points three years in succession, even while never doing a full season. He finished fourth in 1958 by only competing in the spring and fall races, while in the summer he went to the Midwest to finish fourth in IMCA points, also! A unique feat, what could he have done better?

In 1959, he split his season between running CRA (10th), IMCA (2nd) and USAC (11th), winning under all three sanctions! Not even Parnelli Jones managed that! At the end of the year, he subbed for the injured Johnny Thomson in the D-A Lubricants team of Art Lathrop, and won the Sacramento 100-miller in only his third Champ Car start! A certain A. J. Foyt had been larking about for three years and 33 races, and still hadn't won any!

Do you know the name of the only driver besides Foyt to finish in the top six of every USAC Sprint Car championship for the next four years? And guess who of the two won more races during those years? Who was second more often? Hint: it was not the man from Houston, Texas...

So, please tell me, what better results did he deserve?

[David M. Kane]

I met "Herk" one year at the USGP in Watkins Glen. The man had some serious burn scares. I think he lived in the area, not far from the track. Frankly, I was speechless. He was a real icon to me. Not much leaves me searching for words.

[Flat Black]

Michael,

I suspect Russ was refering to Indy 500 results. And it's true that Herk did not fare terribly well at The Speedway. His best finish was 13th in '62 and he failed to qualify for the race 12 times while qualifying for only 10 500s. Which makes me wonder if perhaps Herk holds the dubious distinction of having more failed Indy 500 qualifying attempts than any other driver.

[fines]

David,

yes, Herk's hometown (North) Tonawanda isn't that far from Watkins Glen. His burns must be terrible, I have seen references to his hands as being "grotesquely disfigured"!

Flat (& Russ),

yes I know - I was just teasing a little bit, with reference to the above post by Jim Thurman, and the fact that people tend to forget the "early Hurtubise". Jim said Herk "had a good record in Sprint Cars" - actually, it was an outstanding record!

[Russ Snyder]

Thanks for giving my answer FB.

last time I posted I was talking about the Indy 500 and seeing him blow his engine during qualifying, but what the F do I know anyways.

keep the stories coming.

[ghinzani]

I'd like to see pics of the evolution of the Mallard please? And how much faster it went over the years in comparison to how much slower it went compared to the field.

[Flat Black]

I do wonder if Herk's burns contributed to his death at the fairly young age of 66. Lee Wallard also suffered terrible burns and was afflicted by concomitant scarring, which, I understand hastened his demise. Wallard passed on at the age of 52.

[David M. Kane]

Fines:

I think that's why I was speechless. His nose was pretty disfigured, but his hand just stunned me. I think I said under my breathe, "this is one tough dude!"

[ZOOOM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fines
[B]ZOOOM, I think you'll have to edit your post again, for "Rathmann" read "Parnelli"!?;)

Fines, you are correct, I somehow thought of Rathmann, then checked and corrected it to Parnelli..... and then went on to use Rathmann time and again...
Hey, what do ya want...... I'm an old fart....

ZOOOM

[fines]

Aren't we all?;)

[Flat Black]

Originally posted by fines
Aren't we all?;)

I don't like the sound of that. Fines and I were hatched in the same year!

[ZOOOM]

To Flat & Fines....
I was MARRIED the year you two were BORN!

Hence, I am well aquinted with Malox, high blood pressure medicine, high colesterol medicine, viagra, incontenance medicine........
And I have refused the offered membership in the Commie Pinko AARP!
ZOOOM

[Flat Black]

I think I like ya, ZOOOM.

;)

[Rosemayer]

Originally posted by ZOOOM
To Flat & Fines....
I was MARRIED the year you two were BORN!

Hence, I am well aquinted with Malox, high blood pressure medicine, high colesterol medicine, viagra, incontenance medicine........
And I have refused the offered membership in the Commie Pinko AARP!
ZOOOM

I think ZOOOM and I are the old farts here.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
yes I know - I was just teasing a little bit, with reference to the above post by Jim Thurman, and the fact that people tend to forget the "early Hurtubise". Jim said Herk "had a good record in Sprint Cars" - actually, it was an outstanding record!

Well, I'm master of the understatement. To be blunt Michael, I was tossing that out there in hopes you'd step in and elaborate on Hurtubise's Sprint Car record

Despite his win total in Champ Car racing, and his record at Indianapolis Motor Speedway, Hurtubise was usually a threat to win - right on up to that day at West Allis - and that's what is often forgotten.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Rosemayer
I think ZOOOM and I are the old farts here.

I think that there might be at least one other.....

Hurtubise was one of those whose presence seemed to make the Time more interesting.

[Buford]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

Well, I'm master of the understatement. To be blunt Michael, I was tossing that out there in hopes you'd step in and elaborate on Hurtubise's Sprint Car record

Despite his win total in Champ Car racing, and his record at Indianapolis Motor Speedway, Hurtubise was usually a threat to win - right on up to that day at West Allis - and that's what is often forgotten.

If I recall correctly his first race after the accident, while still wrapped in bandages, was a win at the Nascar Atlanta race.

[Flat Black]

Originally posted by Buford


If I recall correctly his first race after the accident, while still wrapped in bandages, was a win at the Nascar Atlanta race.

I once went swimming while wearing a Band-Aid.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by Buford


If I recall correctly his first race after the accident, while still wrapped in bandages, was a win at the Nascar Atlanta race.

His Atlanta win was in 1966, supposedly the race in which he lowered and raised the ride height - illegally - with a wrench which he threw out the window before finishing his victory lap. True or legend?

I think he finished 4th in a Indycar race (Phoenix?) in 1965, others will know better than me. He did run the Novi at Indy in '65 and was the first out of the race, finishing 33rd.

As far as his hands being in bandages, I think with the nature of his skin grafts his hands shedding was probably a common problem for the rest of his racing career.

[Buford]

OK thanks I was mistaken about Atlanta then. Perhaps it was the Phoenix race I recalled he was racing in bandages.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by ZOOOM
To Flat & Fines....
I was MARRIED the year you two were BORN!

Hence, I am well aquinted with Malox, high blood pressure medicine, high cholesterol medicine, viagra, incontenance medicine........
And I have refused the offered membership in the Commie Pinko AARP!
ZOOOM

So was I...

But I have no idea what the rest of your post is about! Malox? Blood pressure? Oh, yeah, I've heard of Viagra, I get e.mails about it all the time... quickly delete them, no need for anything like that.

Mind you, a bloke feels a little differently as he faces his youngest brother's funeral next Wednesday. Though it's heartening that I have to drive my parents down there. They'd drive themselves, but it might be too emotional for them driving home.

I think Twinny should start a 'We are not getting old!' club around here somewhere!

It might not be as impressive as the 'We refuse to give in!' club it's obvious Hurtubise joined (inaugurated by Nuvolari in his motorcycle days, right?), but it might be as good as we get. Don's ready to sign up, I know that.

[Peter Leversedge]

There was talk of him returnung to USAC sprints in 1977, did this happen?

[Flat Black]

My condolences for the loss of your brother, Mr. Bell.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Flat Black
My condolences for the loss of your brother, Mr. Bell.

Echoed.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Flat Black
I do wonder if Herk's burns contributed to his death at the fairly young age of 66. Lee Wallard also suffered terrible burns and was afflicted by concomitant scarring, which, I understand hastened his demise. Wallard passed on at the age of 52.

Burns to the face and hands lead to heart attacks?

I'm sure there have been some people burned severly enough to have complications that could in fact eventually lead to their demise, but the only one I'm aware of from racing that has any direct correlation is Johnny Boyd.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Buford


If I recall correctly his first race after the accident, while still wrapped in bandages, was a win at the Nascar Atlanta race.

Atlanta wasn't his first race back, as MPea3 posted. I'd have to dig around through the old Autoweeks. I recall a nice piece on his first race back.

But, Buford, you make a great point...while Hurtubise wasn't the consistent threat he was before his accident, he still had some moments afterwards.

Don's quote sums it up nicely: "Hurtubise was one of those whose presence seemed to make the Time more interesting."

[TrackDog]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

Burns to the face and hands lead to heart attacks?

I'm sure there have been some people burned severly enough to have complications that could in fact eventually lead to their demise, but the only one I'm aware of from racing that has any direct correlation is Johnny Boyd.

Wallard had severe burns over about half of his body, but it was the scarring that caused the most trauma. He was unable to perspire, and this caused severe damage to his kidneys. Skin grafting in the early 1950's was wasn't what it is today.

Wallard attempted a comeback after his accident, but his system wasn't up to the intense heat in the cockpit of a 1950's racing car...he never again made the starting field after the 1951 race, which he won.

Boyd was much luckier, his health wasn't as compromised by his burns...but his accident happenned in 1958, instead of 1951. Medicine had advanced quite a bit by then.

I once read an article about Wallard's injuries; it was many years ago, but I believe his chest was burned rather badly. Not sure of the extent of Boyd's burns.

Herk said once that when children saw his hands, they'd scream...he was good-natured about it, but it must've bothered him.

Sure want to thank the Good Lord for Nomex...


Dan

[fines]

Originally posted by Peter Leversedge
There was talk of him returnung to USAC sprints in 1977, did this happen?

He did a few Champ Car races (dirt track) in the years 1975-77, and I have him also in three Sprint Car races in '76. In the big 'uns, he was still tops, finishing 6th in the 1976 National Dirt Track Championship, best in the "over 40" class - Foyt was 12th, McElreath 15th - all those finishing ahead of Herk were at least ten years younger!

And yes, his Indy Car comeback was at Phoenix, and indeed, he finished 4th, incredibly! One of the most amazing results (and unsung deeds) of American Racing History!

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by TrackDog


Wallard had severe burns over about half of his body, but it was the scarring that caused the most trauma. He was unable to perspire, and this caused severe damage to his kidneys. Skin grafting in the early 1950's was wasn't what it is today.

Wallard attempted a comeback after his accident, but his system wasn't up to the intense heat in the cockpit of a 1950's racing car...he never again made the starting field after the 1951 race, which he won.

Boyd was much luckier, his health wasn't as compromised by his burns...but his accident happenned in 1958, instead of 1951. Medicine had advanced quite a bit by then.

I once read an article about Wallard's injuries; it was many years ago, but I believe his chest was burned rather badly. Not sure of the extent of Boyd's burns.

I remember reading that of Wallard, and that is a big issue with people with severe burns - inability to perspire.

When Johnny Boyd revealed he had liver cancer, he also revealed that he had developed hepatitis C from a tainted blood transfusion he received after his Langhorne fire.

[Russ Snyder]

Zooom - I watched my copy of the 1963 race and it is just as you described, Herk appeared to be on a mission to get by Jones on the backstretch and into turns 3 & 4....then he literally smoked Jones down the frontstretch by 3 car lengths! He wanted that bet won...alas, his Novi ended up on the scrap heap of cars that eventually went out of that race.

Odd thing about the 63 race was the apparent strong words and almost fistfight that happened the next night at the drivers meeting between the oil dropping Jones and Eddie Sachs. Sachs thought that Jones's car was the direct result of his spin, and then subsequent loss of tire and spin in turn 3. I do not think they were on best of terms after that. My 66 Jack Fox book states "Jones, not the only one, was dropping oil on the track and some teams wanted to black flag him. Owner JC Agagainin was vehement in his arguement that Jones should remain on the course.

question - if Jones does not have such an demostrative advocate as JC Agagainin, does Jim Clark win the race? One black flag probably gives Clark the race?

one more observation. B Unser in the tropicanna Novi spun on lap 2 in turn 1...how lucky that a pileup did not ensue with the field that was grouped together? B Unser really had a rough start to Indy 500 career, didn't he? (1963 out, 1964 as part of Sachs/Macdonald tragedy)...shows how much fortitude he had that he would last as a 3 time winner into the 1980's (a 2 time winner to some of us!)

[Russ Snyder]

one last thing Zooom...twas looking for you in the crowd in turn 3 when they would flash the fans. lol were you and your Dad sitting up high for best sightlines?

[fines]

Originally posted by Russ Snyder
question - if Jones does not have such an demostrative advocate as JC Agagainin, does Jim Clark win the race? One black flag probably gives Clark the race?

Yes, the oil controversy has been done to death, no pun intended! But you raise an important point: very few people realise Agajanian's power to pull strings, e.g. his role in manipulating Parnelli's famous 150 mph qualifying round. Never heard of? Well, the IMS did a good job of keeping that one under wraps, but it is true: Jones did not average over 150 mph in his 1962 qualifying run, he ended up just under the magic figure - BUT - his last warm-up lap was faster than any of his four official laps, and when you dropped lap 4 from his run, and added the warm-up lap... well, you can guess the rest, can you? Everybody wanted it, and everybody closed their eyes when they fudged the result, what did it matter anyhow? But if you read carefully through the reports, you can still detect the con!;)

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by fines

Yes, the oil controversy has been done to death, no pun intended! But you raise an important point: very few people realise Agajanian's power to pull strings, e.g. his role in manipulating Parnelli's famous 150 mph qualifying round. Never heard of? Well, the IMS did a good job of keeping that one under wraps, but it is true: Jones did not average over 150 mph in his 1962 qualifying run, he ended up just under the magic figure - BUT - his last warm-up lap was faster than any of his four official laps, and when you dropped lap 4 from his run, and added the warm-up lap... well, you can guess the rest, can you? Everybody wanted it, and everybody closed their eyes when they fudged the result, what did it matter anyhow? But if you read carefully through the reports, you can still detect the con!;)

Thanks Michael..... I remember reading that EVERYONE at the speedway wanted/needed that magical 150mph barrier to be broken. Hell, they paved the fronstretch with macadam over the brick for that very reason before the 1962 race....?

The films I have of Indys from 1951 onward zero in at one point or another on JC in the pits. A very powerfull and forcefull figure indeed. I doubt that if Jones had not had him in his corner argueing his case to stay on the track, that a black flag would have ensued...and Clark probably takes the checkered flag.

JC told Vukey that Try Ruttman would beat him before the 1953 race, just like the 1952 race. I think, along with Vukey's drive to win, that was one of the main reasons Vukey shunned any relief driver(s) in that Hottest of Hot 1953 races. track temp at the start was estimated at 130 degrees...air temp a broiling 100 degrees. I assume the track got even hotter throughout the race? The 1953 Dynamic film clearly shows Vukeys team attempting to get him to use a relief driver when he was pitted and his head shakes "NO" everytime!