52 replies to this topic

[Andrew Kitson]

Not nostalgia as such, but the NIMBY's can stop the old cars from running. I was witness to the ridiculous scenes at Snetterton earlier this year when several F500s & F.Juniors were not allowed to run.

A petition has been submitted to number 10 in an effort to get the government to take action in allowing activities that generate noise, such as motorsport, to continue to do so providing that they have been present in a community for a longer period of time than the residents who complain about them.

Please sign the peition by following this link: http://petitions.PM.gov.UK/livewithit/

It is unlikely that this will make any difference but definitely worth a try. Forward this email on to all of your contacts and we will see if we can make a difference.
Please sign up.

[jcbc3]

I fully support your point of view but unfortunately this is a complete loser case.

It's not just motorsports that is hit with this idiocy. Airports providing easy access and work for local areas have been forced to close for similar reasons. These have also been fighting tooth and nail to avoid it, but the rules and laws are what they are.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

I've signed. Im pessimistic about the outcome but you never know, and inaction certainly never accomplished anything. Good luck with it.

[SWB]

I've signed. Its not just about motorsport, which is important enough, but church bells etc.

Steve

[HistoricMustang]

I also signed!

Henry

[gary24fan]

Maybe not completely related to this but:

I recall reading a story some years back about a short track here in the States (can't remember which one or exactly where but believe it was in New England), that ran once a week, that finally had to shut down due to a successful effort by the surrounding residents complaining about the noise.

What replaced the track? A truck loading facility that generated more noise SEVEN nights a week than the track did once. Be careful what you wish for, to use a tired old phrase.

Gary

[Tony Lethbridge]

I have signed and am passing it on to the Exeter Falcons Speedway forum. We have been battling for planning permission to build a new track in the middle of Haldon horse race course, miles from anywhere, for four years and are almost there. I am sure all our supporters will be pleased to sign having ourselves received world wide support. Incidentally our stadium, which was sold by the local rugby club for building, had staged racing since 1929 and was situated in a densely populated area with houses in some places just 50 yards from the actual track yet we rarely got complaints about the noise. It was accepted because the speedway had been there so long.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by jcbc3
I fully support your point of view but unfortunately this is a complete loser case.

It's not just motorsports that is hit with this idiocy. Airports providing easy access and work for local areas have been forced to close for similar reasons. These have also been fighting tooth and nail to avoid it, but the rules and laws are what they are.

Given the myopia of those involved with motor racing, there is a certain obliviousness by those within the racing communities to the noise issues that too often plague our lives. Were that it not so, but on the scale of importance in society, motor racing doe not even register. Urban, suburban, and now rural noise blight is real problem, not just something the NiMBY crowd dreamed up. I live over 8 km/5 mi from I-95 here in Northern Virginia and when I leave for work at 0500, the noise from the interstate is more than noticeable, it is impossible to avoid. Indeed, in the evenings it is a dull, steady roar that drones on and on....

One can call it idiocy, but I can people are really getting tired of it, me included.

Just my opinion.

[jcbc3]

The idiocy meaning, people moving to a location where noise is already present and then complaining about it.

I fully understand peoples complaints if they all of a sudden find that an airport/race track/interstate is planted in their back garden after having lived there for a number of years. But not the other way round.

[RS2000]

Haldon Horse Racing course mentioned above is surrounded by Haldon Forest, once the venue for stages on the RAC Rally of Great Britain as well as numerous lower status forest rallies. First it was lost to daylight rally use and then lost to all rally use, as a result of pressure from (non-racing ) horse riders, ramblers etc. The list of UK forests with long rallying tradition lost to mountain bikers in recent years is massive and very frightening. Noise was not the issue as far as I am aware.
Too often it is necessary to correct the sport's view of that offensive term "NIMBY". Lives and property are being ruined by rural noise. If it is your home and life that is newly assaulted and damaged, whether from Castle Combe running GTs at noise levels outside their existing planning consents or Nigel Mansell' arrogant approach to trying to turn a good club kart and car sprint track at Dunkeswell into a corporate hospitality palace, I will fight with you, not for the sport. Too often the sport has shot itself in the foot by pushing beyond the boundaries of existing planning consents.
Is it really acceptable to-day that UK hill climbs and sprints are allowed to run racing cars at 110 Db (and test them, particularly bike-engined cars that make the most irritating noise, at revs that hardly have the engine on the cam) when stage rallies are now limited to 100 DB? Is it surprising there is no hill climb venue now in the entire south east quarter of England?
Do all those who fawn about the Goodwood FoS (incidently and totally off topic, on terrestial TV in some UK regions tonight) and Revival Meeting know just how many club events were lost in the noise trade off that allows them to run at all?
Yes there is an element of complaints from people who post-date motorsport at some venues, but it is minor in the overall scheme of things. Noise is the most difficult problem to overcome when seeking any new venue (as I well know from years of effort).
Excrutiating rural farm noise goes unpenalised far too often - grain drying started for the first time way too close to much longer existing residential property, larger vehicles completely unsilenced, reversing bleepers driving people insane, by-passes that increase noise of faster traffic way above anything that existed on the old road and thus bring it into more peoples' homes than the original road did.
I believe there is much greater scope for highlighting other rural noise and comparing it unfavourably to motorsport (once the sport has put its own house in better, more consistent order).

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by jcbc3
The idiocy meaning, people moving to a location where noise is already present and then complaining about it.

The idiocy is thinking that they won't complain about it.

[jcbc3]

People always complain. That is a given.

[llmaurice]

I,m afraid that the biggest culprits are generally the "historic" racers . For instance ,when the Euro F2 men run in this country they seem to think that they are outside the mandatory noise limits stipulated by MSA.
Look at all the organised furmulae and you will see strict noise limits in the regualtions .
All of Palmers (MSV) test days have a static noise test limit of 105db.
F/F 1600/Zetc and FF2000 have stipulated Ford silencers and F3 and F/Renault have their own specific silencers too.
At Spa last year ,it was interesting to see That Meyricks F2 car in 2nd place was quiet yet it was impossible to stand on the pit wall without ear defenders for the rest of the field !

[carrotcruncher]

Andrew K.,
I've signed , more in hope than belief, but mainly because I STILL CAN!
We must try,
Carrotcruncher.

[fines]

I'm sorry, but I'm with Don here! Noise is a menace, and motorsport isn't what it used to be. In fact, I'm not ashamed to say I won't miss it when it's gone.

[Andrew Kitson]

Here are a couple of forums for anyone who thinks racing engines are too much:
http://www.chesschat.org
http://www.wildabout.../british-birds/

[Hieronymus]

It would be better if government officials (and their corrupt bosses, i.e. politicians) rather spend their energy and tackle these pea-brain individuals with their doef-doef car sound systems. These morons drive me up the walls.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Here are a couple of forums for anyone who thinks racing engines are too much:
http://www.chesschat.org
http://www.wildabout.../british-birds/

Very droll Andy...are you a secret tweeter and is your middle name "Boris" ?? mmmmn Andrew Boris Kitson,
a nice ring to it mate! I have signed up to the bird forum, my only dissapointment was that these birds have feathers

Now....let me see, a Cosworth DFV, Matra V-12 or a full house BDA in the forest at full chat........nope, the lesser spotted warbler wins everytime!

[D-Type]

Something strange is happening. I posted on here saying I had signed the petition and my post appears to have been deleted.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by D-Type
Something strange is happening. I posted on here saying I had signed the petition and my post appears to have been deleted.

So did I

Edited to say:

O heck, there are two threads, this and the original one (much less contentious too)!

[D-Type]

Whoops! It must be this one

Twinny, time for a merge.

[JacnGille]

Originally posted by HistoricMustang
I also signed!

Henry

You must be a British citizen or resident to sign the petition.

I didn't know you moved.

[David Birchall]

We had this problem when Westwood was open, just east of Vancouver. One morning in the late eighties I was listening to CBC-the national version of Radio 4 that passes for entertainment here in Canada-and they broadcast a call from a woman who had moved into an area down the mountain from Westwood-she complained about the noise and that she couldn't listed to classical music when she wanted to. This at a time when an event at Westwood only happened once a month. The host of the programme, one Paul Grant, then played a recording of Chopin with the sound of engines being revved over it.
I called him up and reamed him out! He was very defensive at first (I was pretty hot) but when I made the point that Westwood had just been sold to real estate interests and until then during races ALL action stopped if a wild animal, bear deer, coyote, wandered onto the track. The deer paths were protected and warning lights installed for drivers to see when animals were present.
"How long", I asked, "Do you think these animals will be safe once this track is converted to residential use and all the 'Urban Rambos' move in and take over the land?" To his credit he broadcast my statements the next day on CBC radio but it was too late-the naysayers had already won
Westwood is now a high density housing development-no room for more than a pussycat.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Allan Lupton


So did I

Edited to say:

O heck, there are two threads, this and the original one (much less contentious too)!

I think you'll find this is the original thread...look at the time of first posting ;)

[Twin Window]

Chaps I'm on holiday this week in a corner of England which has virtually no mobile reception never mind internet. However, after some perseverence I've got onto TNF via my phone but the only option open to me was to delete the other thread. So apologies to those who posted there - perhaps you could re-add your comments here?

[simonlewisbooks]

Wasn't there a case in recent years of a multi millionaire ex touring car star moved to a big house is a nice little village in the country, where his wife took it upon herself to complain very strongly to the local authorities about the AWEFUL din those farm animals make , especially at milking time...?

The biggest problem , speaking as a born and bred country boy, is weekend home owners and recently retired-to-the-country types who seem to have the impression there is NO NOISE of any kind in rural locations and if someone is earning a living...well they really shouldn't , if it disturbs this mythical tranquility .

That is where the real problem lies. It's not with locals who appreciate the reality , it's those who've watched too much of Phil and Kirsty / Sarah Beeney / Grand Designs etc and bought into something that isn't really there.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
Wasn't there a case in recent years of a multi millionaire ex touring car star moved to a big house is a nice little village in the country, where his wife took it upon herself to complain very strongly to the local authorities about the AWEFUL din those farm animals make , especially at milking time...?

If we're talking about the same bloke, I think the problem was the bovine or ovine deposits on the road rather than the noise. He actually sued his neighbours, and was laughed out of court. Various competitor paddocks up and down the country were quite amused too

[alansart]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
Phil and Kirsty

Wasn't Kirsty one of the people against Nigel Mansell's development?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
Wasn't there a case in recent years of a multi millionaire ex touring car star moved to a big house is a nice little village in the country, where his wife took it upon herself to complain very strongly to the local authorities about the AWEFUL din those farm animals make , especially at milking time...?

The biggest problem , speaking as a born and bred country boy, is weekend home owners and recently retired-to-the-country types who seem to have the impression there is NO NOISE of any kind in rural locations and if someone is earning a living...well they really shouldn't , if it disturbs this mythical tranquility .

That is where the real problem lies. It's not with locals who appreciate the reality , it's those who've watched too much of Phil and Kirsty / Sarah Beeney / Grand Designs etc and bought into something that isn't really there.

One of my neighbours keeps chickens. He has a cockerel. It crows - as cockerels tend to do. One of my other neighbours has complained to the local council about it and they are now (surreptitiously) trying to find somewhere to put a noise meter ....

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by David McKinney

If we're talking about the same bloke, I think the problem was the bovine or ovine deposits on the road rather than the noise. He actually sued his neighbours, and was laughed out of court. Various competitor paddocks up and down the country were quite amused too

Could be the same one. When the judge said some thing like
'well thats what you get in the countryside'
Said driver's wife replied along the lines of " Yes and it's most unfortunate"

... not for the cows/chickens/etc involved I would hazard a guess

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by alansart


Wasn't Kirsty one of the people against Nigel Mansell's development?

Yes and I don't think she even lived nearby... a case of NIMBY by proxy perhaps?

[Catalina Park]

Noise is a funny thing. Some people will make noise and then get upset when someone complains about them.
I live in a small city or a big country town depending on your view. I can hear the racetrack (Wakefield Park) which is over 10km away. (a slight background drone) I can't hear the speedway which is about 4 km away. It depends on trees, hills and wind direction. The cars at Wakefield Park are limited to 95db but the speedway has no limits.

I wonder why race cars have to be excessively noisy? We have managed to run with 95db in Australia for a long time. But if you suggest 95db to Europeans they will get into a frenzy about "we were here first" and other rubbish. If the V8 Supercars can manage it so can everyone else. If you turn down the volume there is a better case to keep the sport going. If you insist on no limits the sport will have to go.

About the crowing cockerels, the solution is very simple. They just need a low roof on his enclosure so he can't lift his head up high enough to crow. (it really works )

[Brynmor]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


Could be the same one. When the judge said some thing like
'well thats what you get in the countryside'
Said driver's wife replied along the lines of " Yes and it's most unfortunate"

... not for the cows/chickens/etc involved I would hazard a guess

Would this be a chap who is a sometime Monaco resident....;)

[Andrew Kitson]

As has been pointed out before, for FS don't mention his name!

[alansart]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
FS don't mention his name!

Very clever

[Vitesse2]

Copied from a post on the PPrune forum .... names have been obliterated to protect their privacy ;)

I live next to a motorway and am sick and tired of the noise all those cars, buses and trucks make. I have written to my MP, demanding that he take immediate action to severely curtail vehicular movements on the stretch of road passing my house.

The local rail network is now under increasing pressure (from me) to cut down on its traffic - or face complete closure. I simply don't want this kind of noise on my doorstep. I find it unacceptable that a diesel-powered locomotive, pulling thousands of tons of freight, aggregates, animals or people should be permitted to rumble and thunder through my neighbourhood. The disturbances caused by trains must stop.

The terrible noise of children at play, in the neighbouring school, was reduced somewhat from the initial 87db, following my vociferous representations to the Education Authority. After a short period at around 57 db, the level of noise increased, back to the original 87db and, as a result, the school has been closed down - on my insistence.

So far, my memo to the Pest Control Department of my local counil has not been actioned. It contained details of a certain bird species which, since the start of spring, has been waking me at dawn with its "mating call". This is noisy AND disgusting and I have, therefore, suggested that the council employ marksmen, lay poison or humanely capture the creatures and release them to a bird sanctuary, where they will be unable to cause distress to taxpayers, like myself. My MP is in agreement.

More recently, I have enlisted the help and assistance of Mrs S***** (wife of F****, the B*W dealership boss). Together, we will fight to prevent cows from mooing to one another and making smells in the countryside outside of normal waking hours. Pollution of rural areas should not be tolerated by people who have paid a premium to live in the country.

As soon as we have raised sufficient funds, our activities will be broadened to include lobbying the European Parliament to fund the latest genetically modified sheep larynx. This new bioresearch project will virtually eliminate "baa-ing" noises from the country - making it a more peaceful place to live in.

I phoned my local airfield this week and demanded that they widen their circuit, so that all aircraft going downwind should pass directly above my village and use my yellow bouncy castle as a left base marker. I would be able to feel the good vibes coming from first solo students, and people just having a fantastic time getting a life and expanding their horizons.

Me - well, I'm just a new-age-urban-warrior Not-In-My-Back-Yard (NIMBY) campaigner, who likes to sit on his arse in the garden on sunny weekends and do nothing but whinge about other peoples' business and things that make the world go round. When the weather is bad my telly drowns out all of life's nasty noises.

Please help me, Mr Luke Davies, to make the world a better place, by sending 50 pounds or more this week - to keep the campaign running.

You know it makes sense.

[jcbc3]

I'm Danish so I'll play the dumb one....

Frank Sytner?

[lustigson]

Noise complaints are utter crap.

For example: every year, Zandvoort has trouble getting more and bigger events on the circuit. That's merely because there are only 5 days on which the track may produce unlimited noise. Five! If I'm not mistaking, 3 of those are used for the DTM/F3 weekend, and 2 more probably on F1 demos. The Masters of Formula 3 have even had to move to Zolder.

Trouble is that people complain of noise. But the circuit at Zandvoort has been there for 60 years. Which means that most people living near the track have either been born or moved to that location after the track was built. That's like going camping and putting up your tent in a ditch, and then complain about water in your bed after a shower.

Off topic, but another thing is that cities tend to spend billions (with a b) on the Olympic games -- a one-time event -- which then cause all kinds of problems for inhabitants and visitors. I'd rather see as little as 1 per cent of all that money spent on motor racing.

[RS2000]

I just wonder how many on here have actually been Clerks of the Course/event organisers when they constantly slag off so-called NIMBYs. By far the biggest problem in my experience when looking at a potential new venue or dealing with potential noise concerns with existing events is other areas of the sport not playing by the rules. Inescapably, motorbike engines - in both cars and bikes - play a role in that.

I have given 2 examples earlier. My understanding is Mansell could have had his Dunkeswell kart developments if he had been willing to compromise on the height of just one proposed building. The result of the whining Brummie going off in a huff is blight on what used to be several car sprints a year and is now none. The sport needs that like a hole in the head. So no more sniping at Kirsty Allsop (who does live nearby) (and who, despite being fairly short and not particularly thin, is according to statistical surveys high on the list of most men's fantasies, which NM....isn't....).

This latest move seems an ill-thought out campaign that could do more damage to the sport than good. First the sport must get consistency into its own noise regulations. Then it must sell itself against a background of some appalling other totally avoidable noise in the countryside. Why the devil should the agricultural community get away (as far too many do) with abuse of nuisance laws and use of low tax diesel by adopting practices that are new, not traditional. If I had to move straw bales 20 miles I would have to pay full road fuel costs and load them on a truck. Why should someone else be allowed to use red diesel and tow them with a virtually unsilenced tractor along a trunk road at a peak holiday traffic time, causing chaos - as I have witnessed today?

[D-Type]

The petition does not actually mention motor sport.

The issue is equally applicable to airports where the locals oppose any development on noise grounds although aircraft are quiter now than twenty years ago, the house prices they paid when they moved into the area reflect the blight from noise, and they are probably employed by the airport either directly or indirectly. Incomers should not be entitled to object to blight they knew about when they moved in.

Although I feel that the petition is 'pushing on a piece of string' I signedit.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks

The biggest problem , speaking as a born and bred country boy, is weekend home owners and recently retired-to-the-country types who seem to have the impression there is NO NOISE of any kind in rural locations and if someone is earning a living...well they really shouldn't , if it disturbs this mythical tranquility .

These are the same idiots that settle here in the rural areas and then complain about the farming activities like animals that cause a fly problem, cockerels that crow at daybreak or farmers using manure to fertilize their crops.

[Hieronymus]

I have been wondering if these regulations (guidelines) are still valid in the UK? Can anyone please tell me.


ALLOWED SOUND LEVELS FOR CARS IN THE U.K. (FOR GUIDELINE PURPOSES)

CATEGORY 50cms 2 Meters 8 Meters

Car Races: Saloon and sports75% maximum R.P.M 105dB(A) 93dB(A) 81dB(A)
Car Races: Single-Seater and sports racing cars 75%
maximum R.P.M 108dB(A) 96dB(A) 84dB(A)
Stage Rally, Auto-test, Trials, CCV maximum at 4 500 R.P.M 100dB(A) 88dB(A) 76dB(A)
Road Rally: Maximum at 4 500 R.P.M 98dB(A) 86dB(A) 74dB(A)
O.R.V 66% Maximum R.P.M 100dB(A) 88dB(A) 76dB(A)
Autocross and Rally Cross 75% maximum R.P.M. Hill-climb
75% maximum R.P.M. 108dB(A) 96dB(A) 84dB(A)
Racing and Sport Libre Cars 110dB(A) 98dB(A) 86dB(A)
All Other Categories 108dB(A) 96dB(A) 84dB(A)

[llmaurice]

Its certainly 105 at all of Palmers circuits for cars and bikes for testing,racing and the inevitable trackdays too.

[metalshapes]

When I saw the Title, I thought this was about the Ad at the top of the page which makes a noice.

Because that is super annoying...



A serious Engine with Open Pipes is sweet music, though....

[Todd]

Burn them out. File a noise complaint if they try to rebuild.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by metalshapes
When I saw the Title, I thought this was about the Ad at the top of the page which makes a noice.
Because that is super annoying...

I must be doing something wrong
I don't get any noise from the ad ;)

[metalshapes]

Originally posted by David McKinney

I must be doing something wrong
I don't get any noise from the ad ;)

There is one...

And it moves around, so when you try to X out of it it brings up a page instead.

[Vitesse2]

I don't get any ads. Or any unwanted noise.

But then again I'm using Firefox with the AdBlock Plus add-on (hint ;) )

[carrotcruncher]

Further to my last post on this subject, one of the saddest situations that I heard about was the schoolteacher who had lived in a house near Eccles school, in a large copse of trees close to Snetterton circuit.This lady retired early from her job, then had most of the trees removed at the front of the house,after which she found the noise from the circuit too great, then proceeded to complain!
Now MSV is having to spend a great deal of money building a large earth bank around most of the track to minimise the noise. I wonder who will (eventually)end up footing the bill?
Yes, again I reckon it will be the spectators,competitors and their sponsors.
Another nail in the coffin,methinks.
Regards to all,
Carrotcruncher

[Graham Clayton]

Maybe not completely related to this but:

I recall reading a story some years back about a short track here in the States (can't remember which one or exactly where but believe it was in New England), that ran once a week, that finally had to shut down due to a successful effort by the surrounding residents complaining about the noise.

What replaced the track? A truck loading facility that generated more noise SEVEN nights a week than the track did once. Be careful what you wish for, to use a tired old phrase.

Gary

Gary,
An identical situation happened here in Australia when the famous Sydney Showground was closed down in the mid 1990's. The circuit became part of the Fox Movie Studio complex, which like your track, probably created more noise than the speedway!