15 replies to this topic

[Jack-the-Lad]

This may not be the best place for this thread, but at least the tires are old....

Michelin makes the TB-15 and TB-5 as replicas of their rally tires from the 1970's. They are DOT approved and available from a vintage tire dealer here in the States. I'm thinking of buying a set for one of my cars which is driven rarely, but when it is, it is driven enthusiastically . They would be period correct for the car. I'm just wondering if anyone here has had any experience with these tires. They're rather pricey, so I'm trying to find out as much about them as possible before I make a decision.

Do any of the rally experts here know something about how these tires performed in competition in period?

Thanks!

Jack

[RS2000]

I ran TB15s regularly on tarmac rallies in early 80s in Belgium etc.
If the DOT-approved modern version you have access to is the same as the current "E" marked version sold in Europe, beware that the pattern changed recently and it is no longer the original "period" pattern.
I have a friend who has used these "modern" TB15s on historic rallies in Belgium (where Emarked tyres are required) on a 220 bhp Sunbeam Lotus. Although he was happy with their performance, they are expensive and he now uses Dunlop 311s, which are now Emarked to allow them to be used in historics and are cheaper.
The "new" TB pattern has lost the outer tread and is a pure slick except for a narrow band of tread in the middle - enough to make them road legal. The Dunlop is a "World Rally" type patterned slick (also road legal with 17% tread).
The TB5 in period was rock hard and was often used as a "practice" tyre on European rallies (by Alpine Renault works team etc?). The TB15 was a good intermediate that would take a certain amount of dry use but would perform excellently in standing water when new. Obviously it lasted longer in the dry on lower powered cars. UK competitors doing Belgian tarmac rallies when I did would sometimes only take TB15s, even in the summer, and no other tyres (road surfaces were fairly worn and low grip). They also coped well with short sections of dry gravel and I used them on the stages at the Mandes Rallycross circuit at Inglemunster on the Tour of Flanders.
The only real difference on the "wet" PB15 was cuts on the shoulder and very slightly wider circumferential grooves. In period the TB15 compound was the same as the SB10 slick (harder than the 20 and softer than the 9 or 11). There was also a 20 compound TB and PB but the TB20 is not made now.
The main difference I would guess with the "modern" latest pattern TB is that it would be lethal in the wet, whereas the old TB was very good in monsoon conditions and only a bit worse than a PB most of the time in the wet.

[RS2000]

A good excuse to post a photo of "Biche" (Michele Petit) who's encouragement of Jean-Claude Andruet to keep pushing after a puncture won them the 73 Monte Carlo Rally. The car would have completed the final stage on studs but seems to be fitted with TB5s (ex-practice tyres?) at the prize giving.

[RS2000]

The Michelin "rally racer" type letters, if anyone has not worked it out, were:
S - Sec (dry) (slick)
T - Tous Temps (all weather) (intermediate)
P - Pluie (rain) (wet)

The interminable legal saga in the UK on whether tyres marked "Competition Purposes Only" are permitted to be used for general road driving was still untested at the point Michelin gained the E Mark (which resolved it for those tyres).
Michelin issued a letter around 1981 "to whom it may concern" stating they believed all their rally/racing tyres, including correctly-cut slicks, complied fully with UK Construction and Use Regulations, despite being marked "Utilisation Competition Seulement". The problem was "compounded" when they attempted to get English-translated markings on to the sidewalls and the first batches (made in Spain I think) came out with "Racing Purposes Only" rather than "Competition Purposes Only".

[Red Socks]

We used TB15 as the control tyre in an HSCC Historic Race series in the 1980's where they were fitted to everything from Sunbeam Tigers through Lancia Fulvia via E Types AH 3000 etc.
They wore well and gave very good all round performance. I put my 1300 Fulvia Zagato-albeit Front Wheel Drive- on pole in the wet at Brands over AH 3000, MBG and C , Daimler SP250 etc.
Come the dry race however......

[Jack-the-Lad]

Wow! Thanks for all of that information. Truly amazing. You gents know far more than the blokes trying to shift these things (so what's new, eh?).

Unless there's a strong recommendation not to, I plan to go ahead with the TB-15s. By the way, this is for my 1970 914/6 with lightly modified 2.4 engine and upgraded brakes and suspension to match, but with stock body and interior. It's used for some early morning dashes around some mountain roads and the occasional track day, almost all of which is in dry weather. (These tires seem to be a way to get proper period appearance and sizing while getting the grip of a more modern tire.) Does anyone have an opinion on this specific application?

With respect to the tread pattern, I don't think so many of these have been sold in the US that the distributor would be out of older stock, but that's only a guess. I'll be sure to check on this.

Any additional knowledge or opinion is just as appreciated as what's already been posted.

Thanks again!

Jack.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Originally posted by RS2000
A good excuse to post a photo of "Biche" (Michele Petit) who's encouragement of Jean-Claude Andruet to keep pushing after a puncture won them the 73 Monte Carlo Rally. The car would have completed the final stage on studs but seems to be fitted with TB5s (ex-practice tyres?) at the prize giving.

Thank you for all that great information, but I'm really intrigued by the caption under the picture!

Jack.

[RS2000]

Imageshack seems to print a message with photos now, whether you want it to or not. I'm not doing anything different from before that I know of. Time to find another place to host photos?

All I would add re your proposed use of TB15 is some concern that wear would be too high on multiple laps of race tracks in the dry in anything other than low ambient temperatures. The new pattern would be better for that.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Originally posted by RS2000


All I would add re your proposed use of TB15 is some concern that wear would be too high on multiple laps of race tracks in the dry in anything other than low ambient temperatures. The new pattern would be better for that.

Is the one shown on page 15 here: www.kollevold.no/michelin/michelin_competition.pdf the new or the old tread pattern? All of the Michelin dealer sites that I've found are showing this tread pattern, so if this isn't the new one, can someone direct me to it?

Thank you again!

Jack

[RS2000]

That's the old pattern. I tried to find the new ones yesterday. I saw the actual tyre at the Historic Motorsport Show at Stoneleigh in March.

It seems now they are actually on sale they are calling both soft and hard compound of the new pattern the TB5.
http://www.longstone...michelin-tb.php

The period TB5 was the same full pattern as the TB15. So it now seems you can have soft or hard new pattern (as a TB5) and soft old pattern (as a TB15).

[Jack-the-Lad]

So, for my application, it seems the soft TB-15 (old pattern) would be the best choice? Bear in mind, as little as I drive the car, the tires are more likely to rot before they wear out.....and even on track days my driving style (i.e., slow) doesn't lend itself to a lot of tire wear.

Your experience and comments have really been invaluable.

Thanks again!

Jack

[Ralf Pickel]

Jack - a late reply from me (was doing a event with the Bentley over the weekend...).

I also used the TB 15 in the 80s on my (much missed) Renault 5 turbo 2.
I bought Eurocup 13" Gottis together with one last set of the Dunlop control tyre for the Eurocup (rain pattern, of course).
Unfortunately, when the Dunlops were gone, I was out of tyres for the car. I could have used the standard TRX, but they were awful (especially the looks).
Fortunately, the TB 15 were the standard rain (or intermediate ?) tyre for german F3 at the time, so I got a set of them (17/53-13 front, 23/57-13 rear) - which was the perfect tyre for the little racer !




Ralf

[T54]

I LOVED the TB-15's on my Alpine... allowing me to stay in touch with the modernized 26R's.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Thanks, everyone, for your experiences and advice. This is far more information than I could have hoped for.

Cheers!

Jack

[FBF25T]

Originally posted by RS2000

I have a friend who has used these "modern" TB15s on historic rallies in Belgium (where Emarked tyres are required) on a 220 bhp Sunbeam Lotus. Although he was happy with their performance, they are expensive and he now uses Dunlop 311s, which are now Emarked to allow them to be used in historics and are cheaper.
The "new" TB pattern has lost the outer tread and is a pure slick except for a narrow band of tread in the middle - enough to make them road legal. The Dunlop is a "World Rally" type patterned slick (also road legal with 17% tread).

As this is me I have finally registered on here!

The TB comes in two tread patterns, one with 5 grooves and one with three grooves [at least that is the case in 200/530x13 [or 225/45x13]

The 5 groove version is available as a TB15 which is the softer compound or TB5, the harder. Michelin say use the TB5 if temperatures are above 20deg C, but in Belgium rallying, they are too hard, and we found whatever the temperature the TB15 was quicker, allbeit in warm weather they do wear quick. The TB5 is pretty scary in the wet, the 15 is OK and if really wet cut the grooves to the outside.

The 3 groove comes as TB5F the softer one and TB5R the harder. I have used the F and it is quicker than the TB15 [5 groove] in the dry, and I think a slightly softer compound.

Rallying we punctured more TBs than we have ever done with Dunlops, the sidewall is vulnerable.

Dunlop now as RS2000 says Emarked the CR311 ''racer'' although it does have ''competition use only'' on the sidewall. In the UK these are less than 2/3rds the price of the TBs, I think they are more controllable on the limit, and they have a compound that softens significantly as it warms, but do need cutting for rain.

See http://www.mrtyremot.../news.asp?id=20

[Jack-the-Lad]

Thanks to all who have contributed their knowledge and experience on this thread. I have finally ordered the tires and they should be fitted next week. I'll post my impressions and experiences.

FBF25T: I'm glad the subject matter prompted you to become a member. Thanks for your insights.

Thanks again, and happy New Year!

Jack