38 replies to this topic

[Russ Snyder]

Haunting to watch 48 years later.

If anyone can get a copy of the "CBS Summer Sports spectacular"...do so. I am glad that I did.

The camera's follow Eddie Sachs around during Qualifying/the race/and post race dinner.

You see him driving his family car around the track, talking through turns 1 and 2 and how he takes his foot off the gas entering the corner, only to hit the pedal to the floor midway through the corner to come out clean.

On how the backstretch he tries to dive low instead of driving along the wall due to the car "floating" (his term) off the track. He says that the speeds of 170-75 make the car feel like its coming off the ground.


Then the haunting part for myself...he goes into turn 3 talking about an accident and what his re-actions are like. As he exits turn 4 into the frontstretch he says "I always drive to where the accident is because instinctively the car will not be there when I get there"...he would perish coming out of turn 4 into the frontstretch whilst hitting an on fire and spinning Dave Macdonald during the 1964 race.

He then talks about the still-bricked frontstraightaway and how it is very bumpy and "your eyes bounce, but you get used to it after a few laps"

Incredible behind the scenes footage of him talking to eventual winner Jim Rathman the day before at breakfast. They are seen talking about whom will lead the first lap of the race...(Roger Ward in position 3 cuts over in front of Eddie and Jim to lead lap 1 as we see later) ...and that Eddie being on the Pole has the groove of the track and that Jim will let him take the first turn. Jim Rathman then quizzes Eddie on his competitors car #'s and colors (Eddie fails this test and his face is one of angst during the questions)

Behind the scenes footage of the tearing apart Eddies car the NIGHT before the race and re-building it.

..we see the homemade grandstand falling in turn 4 during the pace lap that ended up killing 2 people and injuring many...and we see a great deal of the race from CBS camera's angles...not the official Dynamic film footage.

At the end, Eddie and his wife Nancy are off to the next race in Milwaukee and she says "if you had won Indy, we would still go to Milwaukee right? what else would we do in the summer?"...Eddie had said a few times during the show that when he wins the Indy 500, he would retire on the spot and never race again.

Oddity to me in the credits.... one of the cameramen, a D A Pennebaker, would go on to film such Rock concerts as Monterey 67, the Rolling Stones Gimme Shelter (1969 tour) as well as the Beatles first USA visit (Feb 1964)....as well as many many more Rock'n'roll films.

Anyone whom wants to see what Indy was like circa 1960 and all the pomp and parade before/during and after, should check this out.

You can PM me and I can send the link on how to order this....its well worth it for those clamoring for a taste of Indy from the byegone days!

[Flat Black]

Just out of curiousity, Russ, what does one of those tapes cost? And are they on VHS or DVD?

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by Flat Black
Just out of curiousity, Russ, what does one of those tapes cost? And are they on VHS or DVD?

FB - DVD...reasonably priced

I am not a seller or agent for the person whom sells these....just a historian enjoying racing that was before my time (b 1963)

[HistoricMustang]

Thanks for sharing!

Henry

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by HistoricMustang
Thanks for sharing!

Henry

You got it Henry...

I know there is a certain part of the community that will appreciate this thread.

...it also makes me understand better Eddie's rational in driving towards a spinning and on fire Dave Macdonald in that 1964 race and the subsequent horrific crash that we all have discussed at length in the Mickey Thompson thread.

Haunting to hear Eddie talk as he goes into turn 4 knowing full well what awaited him on that fateful day in 1964. It sent shivers down my spine.

[fines]

Originally posted by Russ Snyder
...it also makes me understand better Eddie's rational in driving towards a spinning and on fire Dave Macdonald in that 1964 race and the subsequent horrific crash that we all have discussed at length in the Mickey Thompson thread.

Errr, did he? I thought it was his acting against the common instinct (no doubt influenced by the huge wall of fire) that made the accident happen in the first place!!!!?

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by Russ Snyder


You got it Henry...

I know there is a certain part of the community that will appreciate this thread.

...it also makes me understand better Eddie's rational in driving towards a spinning and on fire Dave Macdonald in that 1964 race and the subsequent horrific crash that we all have discussed at length in the Mickey Thompson thread.

Haunting to hear Eddie talk as he goes into turn 4 knowing full well what awaited him on that fateful day in 1964. It sent shivers down my spine.

Yes, IMHO during the 1964 Indy Eddie was simply doing what he had rehearsed some many times in his mind and expressed that view on the video.

Perhaps, just perhaps, he had made a decision not to do such but that would have been voided by the fact he was pretty well pushed into the accident.

Henry

[Rosemayer]

Small clip

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by fines

Errr, did he? I thought it was his acting against the common instinct (no doubt influenced by the huge wall of fire) that made the accident happen in the first place!!!!?

Michael - you would have to hear Eddie himself in this 1 hour long documentary to understand what he did in 1964. He clearly states that when an accident happens in front of him, he steers for where the car is because it will not be there when he gets there....he mentions nothing about the car becoming stationary, as Dave Macdonalds clearly does in the 1964 race!....If Dave Macdonalds car had kept its pace moving across the track and hit the outside wall????

[fines]

That was my point! It was (and I guess still is) "the thing to do" at Indy in case of an accident, a thousand times reiterated by veterans and officials, "steer towards a crashing car", but none of the drivers involved did! As I said, probably because they didn't want to drive into a wall of fire. If they had, MacDonald would have crashed into the outside wall, and probably stayed there - it would've been a one-car accident!

[Gary C]

this sounds very interesting. Would love to see this. How do you get a copy?

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by fines
That was my point! It was (and I guess still is) "the thing to do" at Indy in case of an accident, a thousand times reiterated by veterans and officials, "steer towards a crashing car", but none of the drivers involved did! As I said, probably because they didn't want to drive into a wall of fire. If they had, MacDonald would have crashed into the outside wall, and probably stayed there - it would've been a one-car accident!

Michael - when you watch the Dynamic film of the 1964 race, Dave Macdonald's car comes to halt in the track! I can state this clearly, he stopped spinning/moving, for whatever reason!?!...his momentum did not keep him moving all the way to the outside wall....therefore, Eddie and company had a sliver of open space to the right of the stopped Macdonald...a sliver of space that they never saw!

[fines]

: It's perfectly immaterial if he stopped short of the wall or not, again: my point is that Eddie et al did not do "the right thing" and steer towards the wreckage, as stated by you...

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by fines
: It's perfectly immaterial if he stopped short of the wall or not, again: my point is that Eddie et al did not do "the right thing" and steer towards the wreckage...

I guess its perception at this point.

Eddie and Co did steer towards the wreck, its just the wreck STOPPED midway through its trek across the track. In the milli-seconds they had to decide what to do at that point, it was too late. Am I making any sense with that assesment?

If I slow the frame down to a stop motion, Eddie appears to be braking heavily and trying to turn left away from the wreck....

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by fines
That was my point! It was (and I guess still is) "the thing to do" at Indy in case of an accident, a thousand times reiterated by veterans and officials, "steer towards a crashing car", but none of the drivers involved did! As I said, probably because they didn't want to drive into a wall of fire. If they had, MacDonald would have crashed into the outside wall, and probably stayed there - it would've been a one-car accident!

BINGO! Thank You! You have so very well stated what I have felt so many times in my post. Not blaming anyone.............just the simple fact that for some unknown reason there might have been misjudgement based on what the mind tells you to do. For so many years, until this group explored this accident, the general motorsports community said a rookie at Indy killed two drivers. IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE and individuals close to the accident have been living with that "published" reality for over four decades.

Henry

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by fines
: It's perfectly immaterial if he stopped short of the wall or not, again: my point is that Eddie et al did not do "the right thing" and steer towards the wreckage, as stated by you...

Thanks!

Henry

[Russ Snyder]

I am saddened that this thread took this course...but as the Beatles say "I should have known better"....

*bangs head on the table*

there, that felt much better....

I will bow out respectfully and say that the 1960 DVD "Eddie Sachs on the pole " is a worthwhile hour into seeing a slice of Indy history from another era.

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by Russ Snyder
I am saddened that this thread took this course...but as the Beatles say "I should have known better"....

*bangs head on the table*

there, that felt much better....

I will bow out respectfully and say that the 1960 DVD "Eddie Sachs on the pole " is a worthwhile hour into seeing a slice of Indy history from another era.

Thanks again Russ for sharing. Almost as though words from 44 years ago came forth here at TNF and ignited emotions. My apology and I will edited my previous post.

henry

[fines]

Originally posted by Russ Snyder
I guess its perception at this point.

Eddie and Co did steer towards the wreck, its just the wreck STOPPED midway through its trek across the track. In the milli-seconds they had to decide what to do at that point, it was too late. Am I making any sense with that assesment?

No. I can't for the life of me fathom how anybody can think that Sachs et al steered towards the wreck when they very clearly didn't, but I'll leave it at that. This is getting quite tiresome.

And Henry, it is not at all about apportioning blame, just correcting misconceptions; please understand and stop this nonsense! Nobody's killed anybody at Indy in 1964, and "the general motorsports community" certainly hasn't been stating that or anything else to that effect, and if you or anybody else thinks that you oughta have your head examined.

TNF used to be fun once upon a time...

[kevthedrummer]

This ebay seller just sold a copy of the Sachs DVD: http://myworld.ebay..../notroproducts/

They don't have any listed at the moment but may be worth contacting if you want a copy. For the record, the DVD sold for £9.27 ($17.39).

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by fines

No. I can't for the life of me fathom how anybody can think that Sachs et al steered towards the wreck when they very clearly didn't, but I'll leave it at that. This is getting quite tiresome.

And Henry, you oughta have your head examined.

Well gentlemen......................believe I will take a little break.

Cheers!

Henry

[Jim Thurman]

With the edited posts, I have no idea what went on, but...

Two things here...

1. How haunting would the Eddie Sachs interview have been without what happened in 1964? It would have remained what it was (and is), simply a document (and a very rare one at the time) of a top racing driver. A profile piece, and a good one. Eddie Sachs did a lot in those four years between the documentary and the 1964 race - start 27 USAC Championship races, display a mastery of Trenton by winning 3 races there, finish 2nd in points in 1961 and 9th in points in '62, have two nearly winning drives in the '500'...let's not read too much into things here, that's for the ghoulish and incompetent mainstream media to do They take "last" and distant interviews and seize upon "prophetic statements" and "eerie remarks"

2. It belongs in the other thread, but since it was broached here. I thought it was plainly obvious that Sachs was not "pushed into the accident". Duman was hit from behind by Unser's Novi, which as pointed out in the other thread - was fortunate as it knocked his car away from the inferno. So, how was Sachs "pushed"?

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by fines

No. I can't for the life of me fathom how anybody can think that Sachs et al steered towards the wreck when they very clearly didn't, but I'll leave it at that. This is getting quite tiresome.

And Henry, it is not at all about apportioning blame, just correcting misconceptions; please understand and stop this nonsense! Nobody's killed anybody at Indy in 1964, and "the general motorsports community" certainly hasn't been stating that or anything else to that effect, and if you or anybody else thinks that you oughta have your head examined.

TNF used to be fun once upon a time...

talking about death is fun? to some it must be....but not this kid

Michael - ...The 1964 Dynamic film shows a GROUP of cars coming off turn 4 quickly into an inferno and trying to decide what to do in a matter of seconds! If Eddie and co didn't steer for Dave's car, then why did they hit it? Simplistic to my mind that Dave's car had stopped mid track (as seen on the film) ....and maybe its the American coming out of me...you know that American? one of stubborn reluctance to think anyone did anything wrong that fatefull day.

Henry - my head banging was not directed towards you individually, please do not think otherwise...twas the Black Sabbath "Fairies wear boots" raging on behind these hard of hearing ears.

Jim Thurman - If you think for 1 second that its not downright eeire to hear Eddie Sachs, as he is driving his family car out of turn 4 and into the frontstetch, talking about an accidient happening in front of him and what he would do "if" an accident happens.... I dunno what to say? it send shivers down the spine of this mere mortal.

Kev - good price, new is not that much more. drummer from Easton Pa by chance? I know a Kev drummer from that area.

[fines]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
So, how was Sachs "pushed"?

By a big 'n' heavy yellow roadster with inferior brakes to the Shrike, perhaps?

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by HistoricMustang


Well gentlemen......................believe I will take a little break.

Cheers!

Henry

Henry - I wish you wouldn't take any break. You bring a level head to the preceedings and you do not talk down to others, like some on...some say "TNF used to be fun"...when was the fun? When they talk down their nose to others?...I have remained very quiet when I and others have been talked down to, but I will not shut up anylonger.

I hope you stick around....the M Thompson thread started by you contains a great deal of eye opening info, and that info has helped change this stubborn persons feelings on the whole horrific affair.

Eddie Sachs was called "voluble" & "likeable" by the press in the day...after viewing this special hour, he was all of the above and more.

[fines]

When was TNF fun? When posters came here to either share their knowledge, or to learn something new. Such is the nature of this place that even the best of us routinely have their arguments refuted, so that instead of teaching we end up learning - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that!

But recently, the trend appears to be for new posters to brag about their knowledge, even if looked at it by light there's very little to brag about. So you think I am talking down my nose? You should hear yourself. For a self-styled "historian" you have a pretty low level of criticism, especially when it comes to your own knowledge and theories.

I may have a record of controversial discussions here, but I always make a point of trying to be helpful and cordial with new members, and so I have been with you. So sorry if my patience has run out.

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by fines
When was TNF fun? When posters came here to either share their knowledge, or to learn something new. Such is the nature of this place that even the best of us routinely have their arguments refuted, so that instead of teaching we end up learning - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that!

But recently, the trend appears to be for new posters to brag about their knowledge, even if looked at it by light there's very little to brag about. So you think I am talking dng own my nose? You should hear yourself. For a self-styled "historian" you have a pretty low level of criticism, especially when it comes to your own knowledge and theories.

I may have a record of controversial discussions here, but I always make a point of trying to be helpful and cordial with new members, and so I have been with you. So sorry if my patience has run out.

still talking down, eh?

cordial with me...hardly. if you call your snobbyness cordial? then yea, you are as cordial as they come.

very little knowledge here with me? hey 6'5 you are correct about that!! I am as stupid as they come, dumb as doornail and stupid beyond comprehension (hence me continuing to answer to the master race)

[kevthedrummer]

Originally posted by Russ Snyder


Kev - good price, new is not that much more. drummer from Easton Pa by chance? I know a Kev drummer from that area.

A bit further away. I'm in eastern Scotland!

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by kevthedrummer


A bit further away. I'm in eastern Scotland!

Just a bit ...good price again on the DVD. If you get a copy its a worthwhile watch.

If you are interested in other classic Indy stuff, email me and I'll give the website to you. The guy who runs it has quality stuff, I havn't been upset with anything I have ordered.

[TrackDog]

Thanks, Russ, for sharing the DVD content with us. I'll want to add it to my collection as soon as I can.

As for the discussion on the '64 crash, several people have raised some valid points; but there's still more on the table that a lot of us have missed.

As for the #83 being stopped or almost stopped when it was run into: the car was a torch. There were flames engulfing it from front to back...Rutherford could see the exhaust stacks through the flames, but he was to the right of Sachs. Maybe Sachs couldn't see them. After all, Rutherford was right behind him, to his right. It might have been impossible to tell just where the #83 was going to end up, or just where it was on the track in front of him.

The positioning of the cars behind Sachs was also a factor: Rutherford was directly behind Sachs, to his right...in a much heavier car with inferior brakes, just as Fines has pointed out. If Sachs did see the opening to his right, it's entirely possible that Rutherford would have hit him broadside and split oipen his tanks, and that would have probably killed them both. There was another roadster directly behind him, again with inferior brakes. And, let's not forget the Novi, a very fast and bulky car that weighed twice as much as the Shrike, one that had a reputation for being difficult to control under the best of circumstances, which these definitely weren't.

The other drivers Sachs was running with were all either rookies or young drivers with very little experience at Indy, especially in a crisis situation. He didn't really know how any of them would react, or be able to react to the situation that was rapidly unfolding in front of all of them.

And, NOBODY could see through those flames. What was on the other side of MacDonald's car...maybe half of it? MacDonald, himself; perhaps?

Rutherford has stated more than once that he could see Sachs moving his head from side-to-side, trying to access the situation, looking for a way past the #83. So he was aware of what was going on in front of him. He probably knew that at least some of the other drivers behind him would be nailing the throttle, in order to push whatever they might hit out of the way, and to keep from being incinerated themselves. He knew his car wasn't heavy enough to push the #83 out of his way. So, he opted for the only strategy that was really open to him...aim for the wreck, and hope like hell that it would be gone when he got there. At the last instant, apparently; he could see that it was not. So, he veered to the left in a desperation move that might not have had much impact on the outcome of the situation anyway.

Sachs was trapped. That's the way I see it, anyway...


Dan

[Russ Snyder]

Dan - no problem. I am a huge Indy 500 fan whom wants to share what bit'n'pieces I find out there.

Interesting thoughts on the accident, cause to these eyes, Eddie and Co steered at Dave's car...it just became stationary. If the car had kept its pace and hit the outside wall? Eddie and Co would have had no choice but to drive thru the wall of flames. The rookie/young driver bit is something I never think of, but that is correct, they were all following the leader and we sadly saw the results....

I re-watched this last night and one of the best parts is when Jim Rathman and he are discussing the #'s and colors of the competing cars. When you see it, you will enjoy. Eddie is way off and says to his wife Nancy sitting next to him "Gee, I better learn these"

Also, Eddie was running late to the "3 front rows" drivers meeting that Harlan Fengler is conducting. Fengler is saying "now boys, give us a chance to clear an accident and remember to slow down during an accident. don't be doing 90-100 miles an hour when we are trying to clean it up"...Roger Ward is leaning against the wall when Eddie walks in and winks at everyone.

And...Eddie's engine blew 2 days before the race during practice and his lead mechanic is showing him the burned out piston. Eddie said "what happened?" and his mechanic said "you pulled out of the pits to fast and the engine heated up faster than the water could circulate to cool it down"...Eddie deadpans "Well thats good information to know... you know.... I don't want that happening again"...just absolutely wonderful in the quips and conversation that we hear. I wish they did this with EVERY pole winner over the years...

[stevewf1]

I grew up about a mile east of the Speedway and was almost 15 when that accident happened. While we didn't go to the races, we always had a family cookout in the back yard on the day of the 500, listening to the race on WIBC. We could clearly see that plume of black smoke...

I remember seeing a big advertisement in one of the local papers (fuel sponsor, I think) the day before how Eddie Sachs "was riding on eight gas tanks".

I'll always have great respect for drivers who survived that era, whether they were successful or not, because racing back then was indeed very dangerous compared to today.

[Russ Snyder]

Originally posted by stevewf1
I grew up about a mile east of the Speedway and was almost 15 when that accident happened. While we didn't go to the races, we always had a family cookout in the back yard on the day of the 500, listening to the race on WIBC. We could clearly see that plume of black smoke...

I remember seeing a big advertisement in one of the local papers (fuel sponsor, I think) the day before how Eddie Sachs "was riding on eight gas tanks".

I'll always have great respect for drivers who survived that era, whether they were successful or not, because racing back then was indeed very dangerous compared to today.

Steve

That add in the newspaper has been brought up on other threads... it was for Marathon gas co and it said something akin to "Eddie Sachs is running in todays 500 surrounded by marathon gas"...

[TrackDog]

Originally posted by Russ Snyder


Steve

That add in the newspaper has been brought up on other threads... it was for Marathon gas co and it said something akin to "Eddie Sachs is running in todays 500 surrounded by marathon gas"...

There were actually two ads; one that Buford has posted images of that has a tagline that mentions the 8 gas tanks, and another that touted the fact that Sachs was surrounded by Marathon gasoline.

I wonder just how that last ad ever cleared the desk of the head copywriter at Marathon's ad agency, or if he had a job after the race...


Dan

[Russ Snyder]

Dan - good question

One supposes that the marketing dept felt a little awkward afterwards...and maybe never put an add out like that again? Thanks for clarifying that there were "2' adds in the papers that month/week/day of the race. the information sharing in this forum is second to none.

[TrackDog]

There was a lot of egg on a lot of faces after the '64 debacle. Ford, in an effort to maintain it's image, issued a press statement that effectively stated that the company would remain involved in racing because of the engineering advances it would gain that would benefit the consumer. Marathon evidently kept a low profile for awhile, just recently resurfacing in NASCAR with Kyle Petty. Sears didn't sponsor any cars, at least not directly[I remember A.J. Foyt's Craftsman Tool spots in the late '70's-early '80's], but did promote the DieHard battery in several racing venues; of course, there's the Craftsman Truck Series in NASCAR...but emphasis sure shifted from direct on-car sponsorship.

Reminiscent of Mercedes-Benz laying low from 1955 to about 1983...


Dan

[fines]

Originally posted by TrackDog
Marathon evidently kept a low profile for awhile, just recently resurfacing in NASCAR with Kyle Petty.

I seem to recall Marathon sponsoring Carroll Horton's Indy efforts in the late sixties/early seventies, to the tune of naming the car "Marathon Checkers", or similar. Also the Colvin/Shepherd Sprint Car at some point, and another Champ Car. Or was that another Marathon?

[Flat Black]

Originally posted by fines

Or was that another Marathon?

Perhaps that was Marathon Car Rental of Planes, Trains and Automobiles fame.

[TrackDog]

Originally posted by fines

I seem to recall Marathon sponsoring Carroll Horton's Indy efforts in the late sixties/early seventies, to the tune of naming the car "Marathon Checkers", or similar. Also the Colvin/Shepherd Sprint Car at some point, and another Champ Car. Or was that another Marathon?

These efforts weren't as high-profile as the sponsorship of Eddie Sachs or Kyle Petty.


Dan