287 replies to this topic

[as65p]

Originally posted by Craven Morehead


I think in those days there were Q sessions on both friday and saturday. Its been a long time but thats kinda how I remember it. True that very few ventured out, but I think it might have been a friday Q session. It was dry on saturday, but had it been raining again, Gilles might've taken pole by just under 11 sec. Of course, my memory is pretty patchy these days, too much recreational drug abuse I'm afraid.

Hmm... you could be right, maybe it was indeed Fridays afternoon qualifying session, I looked into one of Roebucks books (Driver Profile series) but it isn't quite clear there either. I don't have access to Forix.

However, as Spunout said, the weather was so bad and with no rain announced for Saturday it wasn't really a serious session. Gilles was probably the only one to try as if it were, just because he loved it - and all credit to him for that. But it's obvious that no driver ever is truly 11 sec faster than his contemporaries if they all try their maximum. The legendary factor is more that Gilles did try, even if it was virtual meaningless to the result , yet the resulting hilarious 11sec gap is a bit of a fluke.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by as65p

The legendary factor is more that Gilles did try, even if it was virtual meaningless to the result , yet the resulting hilarious 11sec gap is a bit of a fluke.

Just for the record, it was about 9.6 seconds:

Gilles Villeneuve 2'01.437
Jody Scheckter 2'11.029

[Orin]

Great race! The nicest man in F1 just scored his first win - and the first win for Toro Rosso too! Appalling luck for Bourdais, Brundle mentioned it might have been a 1-2 otherwise.

Unfortunate to see the one-stoppers having to make an extra stop which ruined their races, but I guess Hamilton is mighty relieved to have only lost 1 point to Massa. Trulli & Glock were hammered too by the need for an extra stop.

Ferrari sucks in the wet, I guess that's beyond doubt now. Massa starting and finishing 6th, Raikkonen starting 14th and still back in 14th until the last laps, when the track was all but dry. This seems like the wettest season in a long time, that doesn't bode well for them.

Major disappointment: Kovalainen. While Hamilton had a shot at winning the race, Heikki never looked in contention, despite being on the right fuel strategy. His glum face afterwards spoke volumes. :

Sad to see Fisi's race spoilt by a silly error after a very strong weekend.

[undersquare]

Terrific race, 2nd week in a row.

It'll be interesting to see how Vettel goes in the remaining 4 races, the whole team will get a big lift. Also interesting to see if he really is Mr Nice Guy as he comes into contention and the will to win kicks into high gear. My bet is he'll turn out to be as hard as Hammy, and as we get to know him better his inevitable faults will become known and a more balanced view will emerge. If he really was such a sweetie he wouldn't be in contention in F1.

Amazing how Hammy's brilliant overtaking becomes "unfair" and "bullying" for so many on here. There were a lot of great 100% clean moves. There's no basis for judging his nudge on Fernando, it's only a few cm different from Kimi's move around the Williams, they all wanted that one grippy line into the chicane. Deliberately nudging him doesn't make any sense, it's so likely to have got Lewis a puncture. With Timo he obviously didn't see him or expect him to be there, didn't change line at all, just took the established racing line, and as Brundle said he wouldn't be able to see him in his mirrors. With Webbo he was a bit naughty moving in the braking area but didn't actually put him off the tarmac, moving his left wheels onto the damp made Webber's car rotate into his own, making it more of a drama. Webbo is pretty aggressive himself as we know, if he had got round the outside there Hammy wouldn't have been able to slow down enough to stay inside, on the damp line Mark was trying to keep him on, and they'd have come together anyway, much harder.

Vettel vs Hamilton looks like the next great rivalry, shame we'll have to wait a couple of years for it to really get going. Unless RB get Ferrari engines next year, perhaps. Especially intriguing if this time it's the German wearing the white hat, and the Brit is the bad guy

But really I expect them to be very much the same when it comes to a winning mentality. Otherwise it won't be much of a contest. Let's see what happens when someone tries to go round the outside of Sebastian...

Fernando tried at Hockenheim, now I think of it, Sebastian "the beast" Vettel pushed him over the kerb onto the runoff and he lost a couple of places

[bankoq]

Originally posted by Orin
Ferrari sucks in the wet, I guess that's beyond doubt now. Massa starting and finishing 6th, Raikkonen starting 14th and still back in 14th until the last laps, when the track was all but dry. This seems like the wettest season in a long time, that doesn't bode well for them.

Schumacher confirmed it on Sunday. He said sth like: "we have problems to keep the car on that black stuff". F2008 must be really horrible in wet conditions.

Every wet race is lost for Ferrari because I would say there are about 3-4 teams with better cars in those conditions. On the other hand we have 2 wet races behind us and Felipe Massa has made up 5pts - but there was more luck in it than Felipe's skill.

I would prefer to see dry races till the end of the season so both Massa & Hamilton have more or less equal chances.

[Orin]

Originally posted by bankoq


Schumacher confirmed it on Sunday. He said sth like: "we have problems to keep the car on that black stuff". F2008 must be really horrible in wet conditions.

Every wet race is lost for Ferrari because I would say there are about 3-4 teams with better cars in those conditions. On the other hand we have 2 wet races behind us and Felipe Massa has made up 5pts - but there was more luck in it than Felipe's skill.

I would prefer to see dry races till the end of the season so both Massa & Hamilton have more or less equal chances.

I think the best races are usually mixed wet/dry, but for Ferrari fans that prospect must be a nightmare. On the plus side, in hindsight how good was Massa's performance at Monaco?

[MikeTekRacing]

Originally posted by Orin


On the plus side, in hindsight how good was Massa's performance at Monaco?

just as good as it was yesterday, the difference being where he started on the grid ;)
it's not really fair to the guy since he does put in some great drives, but people still regard him as reckless..the last 2 races where in TERRIBLE conditions for his car, yet he scored a win a 6th place...he hasn't put a wheel wrong in these 2 races!!...ok, make that a second and a 6h place on pace alone....lewis scored about the same in a car more suited for the conditions (on track, again, no politics)...so really he did a great job but is still regarded as rather poor which is not ok for kimi either. he isn;t so bad, but because of his qualy issues he is too far away from massa...and when massa nails the lap in q3 well..
massa can't drive in the wet?

[craftverk]

Originally posted by Classic Ferrari
Hamilton Killer!

"We had the ball today" - Vettel

Why can’t Lewis congratulate the guy? Instead he goes out and says he could have won if only it rained again, ffs man. At least Alonso came up and congratulated the kid. He’s 21 years, drives a Torro/Minardi to victory, in the bloody rain Words really can’t describe how amazing that was to watch

This is really weird, we've got a future star that isn't a self centered arrogant **** I guess driving for a bottom team puts things into perspective.

Think it was in the press conference when Vettel said that, guys push just as hard at the back of the grid as those at the front. If you come in 15 or so you don't get as recognized even though you may have raced very well.

The kids got the right attitude, it a breath of fresh air really

Lewis Hamilton:
"I felt I drove a really good race and was moving through the field very quickly when the circuit was at its wettest. If it had kept on raining, I feel pretty confident I probably could have even won from 15th grid position; but, as the circuit dried out, my tyres overcooked and I had to defend my position from Mark Webber. Still, today was all about damage control: I came away with some points and kept my lead in the world drivers' championship. Finally, I'd like to offer my congratulations to Sebastian on winning his first Grand Prix - I know what a sweet feeling that is!"

http://en.f1-live.co...914180432.shtml

Your fear of Hamilton is clear as crystal, you must be thankful that there was no more rain...

[Cenotaph]

man, i think you guys don't pay enough attention, in the wettest part of the race Massa was the one making fastest lap after fastest lap. So Massa was right there in terms of speed, he just lost to much time behind Rosberg, and couldn't go fast enough to beat the one-stoppers. therefore in the end massa finished 6th which makes people think that ferrari sucks in the wet, but that's not necessarily true.

Massa's times after he overtook Rosberg, he was already 27s behind Vettel and 13s behind Webber, that's too much, but it was enough to be in front of the Red Bull in the end.

15 1:34.955
16 1:34.950
17 1:35.304
18 1:34.789
19 1:34.940
20 1:34.457
21 1:34.869

Hamilton's times after overtaking Kubica:

17 1:35.291
18 1:35.460

after overtaking Alonso:

19 1:35.637
20 1:35.196

and after overtaking Trulli and Rosberg:

24 1:34.468
25 1:34.324
26 1:35.714

In the end, when both were at very low fuel level and with no car spray in front the gap between both guys' best laps is just 0.133s and Hamilton is considered good in the wet while Massa isn't, so i don't think the Ferrari is that bad in the wet with the proper setup, and it looks like both Massa and Hamilton had their cars setup for wet, judging by their performance in the race.

The most impressive fact though is that Vettel managed to do a 1:34.972 time in lap 8, way before he pitted, pretty good. he never did less than 1:35 again in that stint, but still, that must have been a dream lap.

[BMW_F1]

Cenotaph, you are right on the money about Massa in the wet. Also his pass on Roseberg was the best pass of the race.. His poor strategy prevented him from getting on the podium.

[Megan]

Originally posted by Arn
It was much 'greater' than Panis's win, Vettel beat everyone fair and square.

Vettel won from the front with clear visibility. Not really a big deal.

[fnz]

Originally posted by Megan
Vettel won from the front with clear visibility. Not really a big deal.

After like 10 laps HK had a clear visibility as wel... didn't see him come any closer

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally posted by craftverk


Lewis Hamilton:
"I felt I drove a really good race and was moving through the field very quickly when the circuit was at its wettest. If it had kept on raining, I feel pretty confident I probably could have even won from 15th grid position; but, as the circuit dried out, my tyres overcooked and I had to defend my position from Mark Webber. Still, today was all about damage control: I came away with some points and kept my lead in the world drivers' championship. Finally, I'd like to offer my congratulations to Sebastian on winning his first Grand Prix - I know what a sweet feeling that is!"

http://en.f1-live.co...914180432.shtml

Your fear of Hamilton is clear as crystal, you must be thankful that there was no more rain...

Excellent, the constant jumping on anything lewis says with or without the rest of a sentence is getting on my nerves.

Rather pee'd off with the strategists at Williams, we had a great chance of good points today and threw it away, Nico was one of the fastest during the rain and it was all thrown away by a stupid tyre call

Congats to Sebastian, a thoroughly nice guy and a German who loves to watch English comedies.... I claim him for England ;) He has real talent and it also showed how good that car from AN actually is.

[Craven Morehead]

Originally posted by fnz


After like 10 laps HK had a clear visibility as wel... didn't see him come any closer

that's because he sucks.

[Jedi_F1]

Originally posted by fnz


After like 10 laps HK had a clear visibility as wel... didn't see him come any closer

exactly!
Visibility alone didn't made Vettel the winner!
Heikki hadn't the potential on sunday to win, btw he admitted that Seb was better!

[Dragonfly]

A bit OT: Could this be possible or just Photoshop work

[Megan]

Originally posted by Jedi_F1
Visibility alone didn't made Vettel the winner!

Toro Rosso put the best car on the grid for these weather conditions and Vettel did a job without being under pressure at any point of the race. I have seen nothing spectacular from him this race.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Megan
Toro Rosso put the best car on the grid for these weather conditions and Vettel did a job without being under pressure at any point of the race. I have seen nothing spectacular from him this race.

What did your guide dog think of the race then?

[fnz]

Originally posted by Clatter


What did your guide dog think of the race then?

best post in weeks... just plain funny

[fnz]

Originally posted by Craven Morehead


that's because he sucks.

any facts to backup your fantasy?

[F1Champion]

Vettel was fantastic, simply fantastic. I think this was the highest point of the season and I think its the best win of the season hands down.

The most amazing thing was the consistency of Vettel. Its not easy to lap consistently at low times, that's something that a year in the top teams normally teaches you. Just ask Massa and Hamilton. They both took a season to really get their race pace to such a high level lap after lap. Vettel has done it already without having the experience of being in a top 2 car.

I really hope he gets a top seat because I'm been supporting him for ages and he was amazing yesterday.

[Craven Morehead]

Originally posted by fnz


any facts to backup your fantasy?

I'd say his whole season pretty much backs it up. I was expecting a lot more from him, but he has categorically failed to deliver. It amazes me how he just putters along in that great car.

Monzo was his for the taking, but he just wasn't up to it. If Lewis had started second on the grid I really doubt that SV would have been the winner. I guess Ron prefers a lapdog teammate to the fireworks of last season.

Overall, I'd say HK makes DC's years at Macca look pretty inspiring.

[fnz]

A win, 2 points behind Kubica & 6 behind the reigning wdc... yeah he realy sucks.

Perhaps i shouldn't mention it cause it's hard to prove.. but without wanting to discuss more of it (other topics enough bout it) he mostly had inferiour strategy compared to Lewis.

Monza was his to take? He only lost it to Vettel who drove mature and error free and won to 18 other drivers, Webber who started one spot behind him ended up p8. But hey, for sure he s a sucky driver as well!!

I expected a bit more from him, but to say he JUST SUCKS.... that's just reaching

[AFCA]

Because the speeds are so high at Monza the drivers' helmet tends to create lift. To prevent this from happening some drivers mounted a plastic fin on 'the chin of the helmet' that creates downforce, so in the end there was neither lift nor downforce of the head of the driver.

[Mila]

Originally posted by EvilPhil II
JPM won in his first season in 2001

right. thank you.

in that case, how about Great Britain 95? here we had Herbert (1st), Alesi (2nd), and DC (3rd). DC won his first GP later that season, of course, so, unlike with the Monza podium, the top three at Silverstone thirteen years ago were not all winners at the time.

[fnz]

Originally posted by AFCA
Because the speeds are so high at Monza the drivers' helmet tends to create lift. To prevent this from happening some drivers mounted a plastic fin on 'the chin of the helmet' that creates downforce, so in the end there was neither lift nor downforce.

Elite quizz question!

[Craven Morehead]

Originally posted by fnz
A win, 2 points behind Kubica & 6 behind the reigning wdc... yeah he realy sucks.

Perhaps i shouldn't mention it cause it's hard to prove.. but without wanting to discuss more of it (other topics enough bout it) he mostly had inferiour strategy compared to Lewis.

Monza was his to take? He only lost it to Vettel who drove mature and error free and won to 18 other drivers, Webber who started one spot behind him ended up p8. But hey, for sure he s a sucky driver as well!!

I expected a bit more from him, but to say he JUST SUCKS.... that's just reaching

*His teammate is leading the wdc with 4 wins (he actually won five races, but enough on that) and has scored 27 more points. He is a sorry sixth, with one win. Big deal, Kubi & Vettel both have a win this year with vastly inferior cars. He should have a few winds ffs.

*Both Kubica and Heidfeld are ahead of him the wdc despite having an inferior car all season long. Ironically, Heidfeld is in danger of losing his seat for underperforming, but HK is 'safe'.

*Comparing him to KR hardly does him any favours atm, as KR is having a world of his own problems with underperforming this season; but he is still beating HK.

I don't know where you're getting your information from but according to the FIA (you know, the people who actually award points for these things), he is 13 points behind Kubica, not 2. And you tell me I'm living in a fantasy .

01 Lewis Hamilton 78
02 Felipe Massa 77
03 Robert Kubica 64
04 Kimi Räikkönen 57
05 Nick Heidfeld 53
06 Heikki Kovalainen 51

Yes, Monza was his to take. He started second on the grid with only a Toro Rosso ahead of him, and still couldn't get the job done. If you can't beat an STR with a McLaren when you start immediately behind him, then something is not right. HK's expression on the podium said it all: even he was disappointed.

Just a really disappointing season, I'd say.

[Cenotaph]

I expected more from Kova, tbh. But he didn't start that bad, and could have challenged for the win in the first couple of races but the strategies and lack of luck worked against him.

The frustrations from his first performances started to build up inside him and now he just isn't able to deliver. I think he's not a bad driver, but it doesn't look like he has much more to offer to F1. He is another Coulthard or Barrichello. 2nd driver material.

[fnz]

Originally posted by Craven Morehead

I don't know where you're getting your information from but according to the FIA (you know, the people who actually award points for these things), he is 13 points behind Kubica, not 2. And you tell me I'm living in a fantasy .

01 Lewis Hamilton 78
02 Felipe Massa 77
03 Robert Kubica 64
04 Kimi Räikkönen 57
05 Nick Heidfeld 53
06 Heikki Kovalainen 51

Just a really disappointing season, I'd say.

*You're so right about the points, my bad sorry...

*Disappointing seseaon != just sucks imo

[Craven Morehead]

Cheers. I didn't mean to knock him, it's just that I really was expecting quite a bit more from him. Oh well maybe next year.

[alfa1]

Originally posted by AFCA
... some drivers mounted a plastic fin on 'the chin of the helmet' that creates downforce

Oh dear. Moveable aero device!

[Classic Ferrari]

Originally posted by Dragonfly
A bit OT: Could this be possible or just Photoshop work

Don’t worry its only James Allen's GP Verdict column, he's got a job at the times you know.

[Man of the race]

Originally posted by AFCA
[B]Because the speeds are so high at Monza the drivers' helmet tends to create lift. To prevent this from happening some drivers mounted a plastic fin on 'the chin of the helmet' that creates downforce, so in the end there was neither lift nor downforce of the head of the driver.

The mystery of Schumacher's speed is finally resolved.

[fnz]

Originally posted by Man of the race


The mystery of Schumacher's speed is finally resolved.

[jokuvaan]

Heikki says that some of his brake disks were entirely out of action as they glazed when driving behind SC. He says he should have tried to load them more while under SC.

[AFCA]

Hamilton had the same thing during qualifying...

[KWSN - DSM]

Heiki and Lewis should stop making excuses whenever they do not win a race, and simply get on with racing. No driver ever won all races, and sometimes they have to accept that on this particular day they simply did not have it, which Heiki clearly did not.

[ruther]

Originally posted by primer

Massa raced hard all day and finished where he started? : Lame. Lewis is gonna destroy him at Singapore.

Ferrari, do you mean?