50 replies to this topic

[rbm]

when did coilover damper suspension come in to use?

whilst re-searching a 1951 500cc formula 3, I have come across a car using double wish bone and coilover damper suspension, the article notes "...this clever front suspension was made by" [the builder]"welding spring mounting plates to the damper body.."

[Charles Helps]

Lotus used coil over damper suspension on the prototype MkVI which first raced in July 1952. I think they were proprietary Woodhead-Monroe shock absorbers...

[antonvrs]

Fiat used coil over damper front suspension beginning in the mid-thirties on the Ballila, 1100A, B, S, etc. and beginning in 1952 on the 8V. The 8V used coil over damper independent suspension on all 4 corners. The spring-shock units were enclosed in an aluminum casting which carried the upper and lower, unequal length, control arms.
BTW, Cooper and many other F3 cars in the early '50s used either modified Fiat Topolino front suspension or copies thereof as did the A.C. Ace and early Cobras.
Anton

[rbm]

FIAT topolino is transverse spring and lower wish bones suspension, which as you say was used on all standard Cooper 500 F3 cars from the original prototype in '47 through to the last mk13 in 1960.
Coil over dampers don't seem to appear in other 500cc Formula 3 'till late in the '53 season with the Staride.

Intresting about the Lotus, does any one have any info on the proprietary coil over dampers?

[Ray Bell]

The Triumph Herald front dampers carried a spring and became the standard (pun not intended...) unit for cheap coilover adaptations for years...

Not sure if the preceding Standard 8s and 10s had similar.

[johnny yuma]

When did the first tubular dampers appear on a car inside the coil springs and with independent double wishbone front suspension ? A 1953 Holden has this, but I'm sure many pre-war cars did too.This is to all intents and purposes a coil over--what is the big deal ?

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by johnny yuma
When did the first tubular dampers appear on a car inside the coil springs and with independent double wishbone front suspension ? A 1953 Holden has this, but I'm sure many pre-war cars did too.This is to all intents and purposes a coil over--what is the big deal ?

I think the idea behind the question is that the spring abutments should be part of the damper, rather than the damper just being coaxial with the spring.

[rbm]

yes, I was wondering about when the single unit spring / damper would have been 1st used.

As the article seemed to be making such a big thing about these hand made units.

[johnny yuma]

My point still when did tubular dampers appear as mass production items.For racing purposes on lightweight vehicles a loadbearing flare on a tubular damper body attached to the bottom wishbone is hardly an innovation at all just the elimination of a nut and bolt or two ?

[Allan Lupton]

Tubular dampers appeared in the 1920s (Singer).
Coil road springs appeared in the 19th century (Knight)
Properly combined tubular dampers with coil springs in a road car, probably 1960 Triumph Herald, as said above.
Macperson strut 1951 UK Fords
Chapman strut 1956 Lotus Elite (and 12 Formula car)

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The Triumph Herald front dampers carried a spring and became the standard (pun not intended...) unit for cheap coilover adaptations for years...
Not sure if the preceding Standard 8s and 10s had similar.

Ray, I cannot find a shot of the Std 10 front end, although I have 2 sets of uprights in the garage here, but you posted this shot of the Mayflower parts on the now legendary Alford and Alder thread. Post 47
http://forums.autosp...y=&pagenumber=2
Roger Lund

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by johnny yuma
My point still when did tubular dampers appear as mass production items.For racing purposes on lightweight vehicles a loadbearing flare on a tubular damper body attached to the bottom wishbone is hardly an innovation at all just the elimination of a nut and bolt or two ?

Did the idea start off on motorbikes?
I've still no idea which car would have been first to use them, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was someone who used motorbike components, probably on a lightweight car like a 500?

[Ray Bell]

There's more than a little logic in that thought, Peter...

But that still might not have been the first use.

[bradbury west]

Perhaps the concept goes back even further, to a variation of the idea of a sliding pillar suspension. I have a photograph in the files here taken at the excellent museum at Les Sables D'Olonne showing a sliding pillar on a car built in 1898, albeit with a transverse leaf spring. It is a logical step to put a coil spring over the slidin rod, like the Alta etc.
Roger Lund.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by bradbury west
Perhaps the concept goes back even further, to a variation of the idea of a sliding pillar suspension. I have a photograph in the files here taken at the excellent museum at Les Sables D'Olonne showing a sliding pillar on a car built in 1898, albeit with a transverse leaf spring. It is a logical step to put a coil spring over the slidin rod, like the Alta etc.
Roger Lund.

Strangely enough, so far as I know, even when the sliding pillar got a coil spring wrapped round it (Morgan, Lancia) it didn't becoms a telescopic damper until the macpherson strut.

[Charles Helps]

I think that rear springs and shock absorbers on motorcycles became common in the late forties/early fifties. A Velocette was using them around 1953. I had a look on a Morgan 3 wheeler site (click on Technical Details) but it appears that shock absorbers were optional on the sliding pillar front suspension and if I am reading this correctly a Duplex Hartford is still a friction device, not hydraulic and not co-axial with the spring.

The Lotus Six, as I mentioned above, uses a single unit coil spring / damper but if he was the first, I'm surprised Colin Chapman didn't trumpet the fact: he was never slow to proclaim his innovations. As there were between 80 and over 100 made I think that counts as a production road car and predates the Triumph Herald!

If you have an academic hat on the answer may well be found in this bibliography of mechanical springs compiled in 1952 but it's too much for me at the moment. :

[bradbury west]

Not altogether on thread, but a shot of the 1898 Decauville front end.
Roger Lund

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by bradbury west
Not altogether on thread, but a shot of the 1898 Decauville front end.
Roger Lund

OT but that's an unusual Decauville - what is it, and where?
That suspension was used on the Voiturelle which had the engine at the rear (and no rear suspension). The 8½ and 10 h.p. front-engined cars had conventional leaf-sprung/beam axle arrangements.

[bradbury west]

[i]Originally posted by Allan Lupton OT but that's an unusual Decauville - what is it, and where?
That suspension was used on the Voiturelle which had the engine at the rear (and no rear suspension). The 8½ and 10 h.p. front-engined cars had conventional leaf-sprung/beam axle arrangements. [/B]

Allan, it is at the Musee d'Automobile de Vendee at les Sables d'Olonne on the French atlantic coast. It is an excellent place, for those who like the older French cars, and also as an example of a well kept museum. see thread on the Alexander/Rafaela Maserati device.
I needed to check on another photo CD before commenting, as I recalled that this Decauville was listed as having an Anti-Clockwise engine. see attached copy of the ID card with the exhibit, surprisingly in English

If you have any queries the museum owner is always pleased to discuss his cars, about which he is very well informed, as I found when he was kind enough to meet me last time. There is a delightful, English speaking, Assistante in reception.
Roger Lund

[bradbury west]

I am not an engineer and thought I was getting somewhere with other makes and models, so........ that left me with only the Mercedes W25 with its front coil spring set inside the hollow front axle tube, but have now discovered that it too had friction dampers. Do we know when motorcycles started with coil springs? I am inclined to agree with Charles; if ACBC felt he had pioneered, let alone invented, the idea on the Six we would have heared about it, and then some....
Roger Lund

[Charles Helps]

Originally posted by RTH on the Restoring the Clairmonte Special thread post 43
Patrick Stephens wrote this most brilliant book in 1953, I bought the fourth impression in 1961 at age 11 it really was my inspiration to get involved in motor racing.

What year did Patrick Stephens complete his Austin based Stoneham Special - it seems to be using coil over damper units?

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by Charles Helps
What year did Patrick Stephens complete his Austin based Stoneham Special - it seems to be using coil over damper units?

Are they not rubber gaiters? The ribs seem to be at right angles to the axis of the damper, which would not be the case with a helical spring.

[hatrat]

I'm curious as to when coil over dampers with threaded adjustable height spring platforms were first used.

 

The reason is that FIA have just come out with a new FJ edict that pre 1961 cars are unable to continue to use threaded adjustable spring platforms. They are required to lock the platform in place by machining off the threads on the shock so the platform cannot be moved.

 

For post 31 December 1960 cars adjustable threaded spring platforms are apparently acceptable but from the period photos (1961 - 1963) I've seen, the FJs didn't appear to have threaded spring platforms

[GregThomas]

Having read the above thread, it's apparent that some history is being overlooked.

Rex McCandless was working toward swingarm rear suspension for motorcycles in the late 1940's. Making a series of experimental frames and using various types of rear spring/damper unit. He settled on a unit he made from Citroen telescopic dampers with springs mounted in the now familiar position co-axial to the damper body.

When his frame design was adopted by Norton - as the Manx - the works bikes used his dampers. I understand that a trial of dampers from outside suppliers vs his ones was decided in favour of his ones. Hardly surprising given that he'd been developing them for some time.

 

The rapid adoption of this type of rear suspension stimulated development and Girling amongst others quickly had what we now know as coil-overs on the market from early in the 1950's.  A common feature was a three-step spring abutment adjustment. Provided to adjust spring pre-load to accept a pillion passenger.

 

IMO as a bystander, I would think that the three-step abutment should be legal for FJ's as it was a common feature readily available on the dampers of the period.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by hatrat
I'm curious as to when coil over dampers with threaded adjustable height spring platforms were first used.....

I've just been through pics of the suspensions of a few F1 cars - works cars as raced in the last race of 1960 - and found just one:


BRM adjustable. Though there's tape wrapped around the thread, it's obvious from the notches in the adjuster that there is a thread there for the purpose of adjusting ride height.

 

Pictures of the Works Lotus 18s and Stirling Moss' Rob Walker Lotus 18 show they do not have them. It's also worth noting that the BRM setup is not on a conventional damper, but on what is more of a strut.
 

....The reason is that FIA have just come out with a new FJ edict that pre-1961 cars are unable to continue to use threaded adjustable spring platforms. They are required to lock the platform in place by machining off the threads on the shock so the platform cannot be moved.
 
For post 31 December 1960 cars adjustable threaded spring platforms are apparently acceptable but from the period photos (1961 - 1963) I've seen, the FJs didn't appear to have threaded spring platforms.

I think, from the evidence I've found, that's pretty reasonable...

If Works cars were still to adopt these at the end of 1960, then suggesting that every FJr had them in 1960 would be silly. However, I'm very much of the mind that 'as it was, so it shall be' should apply...

This is how it is in Australia, and if, say, the owner of a front-engined Lola FJr back in the day had made up his mind that he'd modify his car to have such adjusters, that car should be allowed to have them.

If, however, a Brabham BT2 didn't have them, so that should be.

Of interest, if you look at the pictures Doug has posted in the BT31 thread, there you'll see that Jack's own F1 car as raced in 1963 doesn't have them on the front. It's altogether possible, of course, that he used them on the rear.

[hatrat]

Thanks Ray - I also had a bit of a look and couldn't find any clear evidence of post 1960 FJs with threaded adjustable spring mounts. Also searched a few F1 cars up to 1963 and most seemed to be unadjustable.

 

Interesting that you mention the front engine Lola FJ as I've have one and it was un-raced from 1963 so was in period condition. It had spring platform adjusters by way of collars that sat between the fixed spring platform and the spring and were just on one side. I also have a Taraschi FJ and it had a rear spring platform adjuster by way of a moveable clamp that raised the spring. I think the reason for these cars (and other like cars) having spring height adjusters was that they were off-set configured and therefore needed the adjustment to compensate for an offset driver / engine etc.

 

From the end of 1960 all new FJ designs were rear engine with "even" configuration so didn't need spring jacking on one side to even it up.

 

There is no real complaint with these pre 1961 cars being as in period and new collars of various height can be made up to give a range of spring height. The issue is that post 1960 cars can now all apparently use threaded platform adjusters - but being consistent with "as in period" I presume they would need to show that threaded platform adjusters were in use on their cars in period - and to date I haven't found any (which certainly doesn't mean they didn't exist).

[Roger Clark]

I've just been through pics of the suspensions of a few F1 cars - works cars as raced in the last race of 1960 - and found just one:


BRM adjustable. Though there's tape wrapped around the thread, it's obvious from the notches in the adjuster that there is a thread there for the purpose of adjusting ride height.

 

Pictures of the Works Lotus 18s and Stirling Moss' Rob Walker Lotus 18 show they do not have them. It's also worth noting that the BRM setup is not on a conventional damper, but on what is more of a strut.
 

 

 

I think that's the infamous oleo-pneumatic strut which caused so many problems on all BRM's 2.5-litre cars. When Chapman tried the Type 25 in early 1957 he recommended that they be replaced by coil springs over telescopic shock absorbers.  He said the necessary parts could be designed and manufactured in about 10 days.  Not at BRM in the 1950s!

[Lee Nicolle]

Did the idea start off on motorbikes?
I've still no idea which car would have been first to use them, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was someone who used motorbike components, probably on a lightweight car like a 500?

When did motorbikes have rear suspension?? 

I can remember looking at them then realising even on a light car they were not big enough.

[Lee Nicolle]

To me at least a coilover shock for motorsport use has a threaded adjuster to change ride height and or corner weight the cars. 

A coil over shock/ strut has been around since the early 50s on English Fords inc Consuls and Zephyrs. Similar principle ofcourse but it is a strut assembly. 

Motorcycles came closer with often 3 or 4 positions to jack up the bike for more load.And is a self contained bolt on unit.

XJ6 Jag use 4 coilovers on the rear but are not adjustable. Decades ago many converted them to be. Though Ideal?  A long way off.

On racing cars I have no idea but by the early 70s many tintop style cars were using them. Then relatively expensive in compatison to modern times with no end of shocks made either threaded body or able to accept threaded body sleeves.

I have coil overs all round on my 82 Falcon Improved production car. All 4 semi custom in length and valving with made to order front springs and they owe me about $1500. Proshocks with rear QA1 springs and locally wound coils. Are they ideal? No, BUT are they better for a racecar than the OEM units, yes a lot better. I can run the car lower and and square up the corner weights

I wish I had them in the 90s for my Sports Sedan. I had home made on the rear and std style coils on the front. With Konis. Which really could not handle the spring rate, the spring rate that the car required which were about 2.5 times the original factory spring. Yet the rear spring rate was factory original though as a coilover were mounted behind the axle instead of in front. This a live axle.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 12 April 2022 - 08:30.

[Rupertlt1]

Would Lambretta be a line of research?

 

RGDS RLT

[Charlieman]

To me at least a coilover shock for motorsport use has a threaded adjuster to change ride height and or corner weight the cars. 

WRT corner weight and adjustable coil-over dampers, I think we're heading towards magical underpants territory.

 

The proper way to statically weight balance a car, front and back, left and right, is to move mass around. You can jack up a corner, by raising the ride height a smidgeon, to achieve something that looks all right in the workshop. When the car starts moving, the mass starts moving too, and the ride heights are no longer optimal, and oops.

 

Anti-roll bars are the quick fix for lateral load transfers, but it is easy to drive down a blind alley. Tony Rudd allegedly complained how BRM driver G.Hill wore out his car in attempts to go faster by tweaking anti-roll bar settings. Adjustable anti-roll bars appeared to be the solution. Colin Chapman and Mario Andretti "tried" them on those gorgeous Lotus F1 cars, but with hindsight, we have to ask how much of the tale was bluff.

[Rupertlt1]

See Bill Milliken's Butterball Special from 1956:

 

https://library.revs...ll-climb/243803

 

RGDS RLT

[Ray Bell]

A 'coilover,' for sure, Rupert...

 

But I don't think it has a screw adjustment for the ride height.

[Rupertlt1]

A 'coilover,' for sure, Rupert...

 

But I don't think it has a screw adjustment for the ride height.

 

Bill Milliken was a suspension guru — I have his book Equations of Motion in storage — I will investigate further when I repo soon.

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 14 April 2022 - 08:26.

[Doug Nye]

If interested see accompanying thread on Reg Parnell's Challenge/Challenger project for a coil-sprung front end, 1938-39.

 

DCN

[hatrat]

A 'coilover,' for sure, Rupert...

 

But I don't think it has a screw adjustment for the ride height.

That's correct Ray - there were coil-overs and there were subsequently spring height adjusters through packers or collars that raised the spring off the fixed spring platform on the shock.

 

The issue is when the shock body became threaded so that a like threaded collar could be wound up and down to adjust the spring height. This is the common method of spring height adjustment today but when was this method introduced?

 

I've done lots of searching but the answer seems elusive.

[GregThomas]

WRT corner weight and adjustable coil-over dampers, I think we're heading towards magical underpants territory.

 

Where this is commonly done is on dirt speedway cars.  Common practise to adjust corner weights to suit a different surface or changed stagger.

 

A quick look around the net suggests that Don Edmunds may have been at least one of the first to use threaded shock bodies - or a sleeve over the body - for this purpose.

He was certainly experimenting with coilover suspension in 1960.

While he was based in California, there was - and is still - quite a lot of interchange between the dirt crowd and the roadracers. Good ideas tend to get picked up very quickly.

[bradbury west]

A quick look through the John C Nixon volume on Suspension Design and Computation  seems to shed no light on the topic. I had hoped to  find some guidance there.

Roger Lund

[Ray Bell]

Just to rationalise on what we've found so far:'

 

First, a definition or two:

 

Coilover This is a spring mounted on the body of a telescopic damper and using that damper's mounts to carry the weight of that corner of the car.

 

Adjustable spring bases Where a threaded section is provided on the outer case of the telescopic damper along with a mount (and usually a locknut) for the spring in use. It could also mean a similar style of adjuster built into the top of the damper.

 

The first to use 'coilovers' actually established as fact on this thread was the Lotus Mk 6 prototype of 1952 (see post number 2), though the original post mentioned, without names, a car apparently found while researching 1951 F3 cars.

 

The first established use of 'adjustable spring bases' here would be the 1960 BRM, which used a strut-type suspension (like the Chapman Strut), but it is a 'coilover' with an 'adjustable spring base'. I sincerely doubt that it's an oleo-pneumatic strut, as mentioned by Doug, as the spring looks to be of sufficient dimension to carry the weight of the car.  But it might be an auxiliary spring, this could be plumbed. Nevertheless, the ride height could be adjusted by screwing the spring base up or down.

 

Like everything that anyone ever claims to have been 'first', no doubt there will be earlier versions of both identified in time...

[Porsche718]

Coil over strut has been around from the 1920's in general automotive use. (An interesting story on its own).

 

Delco in America used to make a number of replacement shock absorbers in the late 50's that had a spring over the shock with a 3 position spring base. The spring was only a "helper" for the main springing medium front or rear so the adjustable base did not affect ride height, only increased the pre-load on the helper - effectively increasing the spring rate of the helper.

 

These quickly morphed into the hot-rod scene and by the very late 50's became the only springing medium for the vehicle. But hot-rodding is not really racing - is it.

 

(I'll now wait for the up-roar from our American friends)

 

By the way, this style of helper had been available for VW Beetles front and rear from nearly the same period. I have two sets of fronts for my FV and have always wanted to experiment but have never been allowed.

 

In my opinion the transverse torsion bar is still the main front spring, so I would be within the rules, but the rule makers still refuse to allow them.

 

Steve

[Ray Bell]

Yes, as helper spring units, they've been around...

 

Koni made Load-a-juster units for this purpose, the damper unit was of a slightly smaller diameter than the regular 80-series dampers.

 

Monroe-Wylie in Adelaide made one too, following on from the 1957 US Monroe release of their Load-Leveler.

 

What examples do you have from the '20s?

[Porsche718]

Ray, I am going to reply, but the story behind the MacPherson strut is lengthy (but I find fascinating) however twice now I have been half-way through preparing the post and it just disappears. It there some time-out feature that is coming into play or way to save as you go? 3 hours work gone!

 

Otherwise I will do it on a Word doc and work out how to post that.

 

But as a "spoiler" look at the front suspension of a Cottin-Desgouttes "Sans Secousse" from 1924 to see the genesis of design.

 

Then the Stout Scarab first designed in 1929 and finally released in 1932 (although only 17 or so made) so hardly mass-produced.

 

 

I will also include this quote from a Stout based website

 

 

 

 

In researching this I found quite a few who claim the Christie race car from 1904 to have a friction shock absorber of some type inside the front coil but can't confirm details however will include the following...

 

 

 

I'll work out how to post a doc. and finish the story (or how to save)

Edited by Porsche718, 15 April 2022 - 06:34.

[Porsche718]

More on the 1904 Christie. The best I can come up with is that it had a "vertical-pillar" inside the coil spring. Whether there was a method of increasing friction on the pillar and therefore creating a dampening effect, I do not know.

 

However, Walter Christie may have stolen a march on the "MacPherson strut" story. In 1928 he started design tanks for the US military. He patented the Christie Suspension System ...

 

   

 

Two thing about the Christie tank ... first ... it wasn't a racing car ... second ... Walter decided not the fit adjustable spring seats as he realised it would be a bugger to corner-weight!

Edited by Porsche718, 15 April 2022 - 07:21.

[Ray Bell]

To prepare a post in Word...

 

Simply type it up, including the image codes, then Edit> Select all> Copy and then paste to the post.

[GregThomas]

Googling "Les Redmond racecar designer"  Brings up some interesting pre-Gemini pictures. The Moorland FJ used Armstrong coilovers - adjustable costing extra.

Jim Clark's first drive also appears to be in a FJ with adjustable spring platforms. This pic on the same website as the Moorland pics.

 

Friction damped coilovers....There was a motorcycle damper whose name eludes me which had a split cone of friction material fitting around the center shaft. The spring seats had a matching internal cone such that the heavier the spring load the higher the pressure of the friction material on the center shaft.

Call it a halfway house to hydraulic damping.

[Porsche718]

To prepare a post in Word...

 

Simply type it up, including the image codes, then Edit> Select all> Copy and then paste to the post

 

Thanks Ray, I'll give it a go. I seem to remember others mentioning though that they find formatting changing or disappearing when they try to post a Word document.

 

I think what was happening is that I'm in a poor reception area and photos were taking a long time to upload, and then it was timing out?

[Roger Clark]

The subtlety of much of this is beyond me but Doug Nye wrote in Cooper Cars of the 1958  T45: “The Armstrong adjustable dampers fitted front and rear were adjustable by means of a knurled knob at the bottom of the unit, and had been introduced on the interim F1 cars the previous season”. 

Edited by Roger Clark, 15 April 2022 - 14:27.

[Ray Bell]

I don't think they were coilovers at all, Roger...

 

Those Cooper, IIRC, still had leaf springs.

[Roger Clark]

Leaf at the back (mostly). coil at the front.

[Rupertlt1]

Would Lambretta be a line of research?

 

RGDS RLT

 

The Martini 650 Special of Tico Martini from 1962 used "Lambretta shock absorbers with Armstrong springs built up on the outside..."

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 27 April 2022 - 19:39.