22 replies to this topic

[Quixotic]

Just a musing... I am looking around for a race car that would be suitable for historic racing here in Australia.

I am looking at cars generally from the era 1960 to 1980.

I never cease to be amazed at hoe expensive cars are here. A gent, whom I will call Joe Z, recently sold a Mk2 Mako Formula Vee Car for $40,000 Aussie Dollars. Forty grand for a Formula Vee! Is the damn thing gold plated? I race Formula Vees as they are cheap, or at least my kind of cheap. My brand new car that I am building will only be worth $17,000 to $19,000 when completed.

I have pretty much given up on finding a historic car here in Australia as they are all too over-priced.

Let me provide an example.

This is a tale of two Ralts; a RT4 located here in Australia, and a RT5 located in the US. Both are in very good condition and ready to race. Both are also in a very similar spec. You'd imagine that they would be worth a similar amount, right? Wrong!

The Aussie car is for sale for $80,000 AUD, the US car $30,150 AUD...

If I buy the Aussie car, (I would not be able to afford in on my Soldiers salary anyway), I would have a car ready to race at historic meeting within a week or two. It would also cast me a couple more grand to go and get it.

If I was to buy the Yankee car... Well, with the cost of sea freight getting that car and the mountain of spares that come with it, paying all duties and taxes and, getting an Historic Certificate of Description to allow the car to race as an historic car and purchasing a new trailer to haul the stuff all around, I would still have change from $40,000 AUD.

Half the cost of the Aussie car. So what is the difference?

Buggered if I know. I do know of a Ralt which was brought over from the US and landed here for less than $30,000 AUD and sold recently for $70,000+. Not a bad profit to the importer.

But still it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I feel that historic racing here is a club that you are not allowed to join, unless you can prove that you have the price of admission. Hence very expensive cars.

Any historic racer (well not all; some are very nice) I talk to scoffs at the fact that I drive a Formula Vee.

I actually have an historic Vee, an Avanti, but these gentlemen scoff at that too, telling me that Vees are not real race cars, and that Vees were invented to keep the 'riff raff' out of real racing cars.

Regards,

John Swensen

[Lee Nicolle]

As much as I never liked formula Mundane those cars are still quite technical and i guess you would get what you pay for.
I know a good engine will cost you the best part of 30k.
And a good car fro 80k and a junk car for 30k may be cheaper in the long run for the good car, which you can race immediatly.
There is athread here somewhere about the trials and tribulations of an American gent trying to restore a formula 5000. Read it and you will understand.

[Lee Nicolle]

Vees to my mind still are, and have been for a long time close competitive racing while some of these headline categories have been and gone.
F5000 was fast and great but lost relevance. F Mondial was always to me boring and always irrelevant.
F Holden was interesting with some relevance but there was seldom enough depth of competition probably through lack of dollars more than talent.
The current F3s are interesting but to me really too technical and not really enough depth again.
Try a historic clubbie etc, should be reasonably priced for purchase and maintenance and faster than any Vee

[xbgs351]

For a start that RT5 is too new to even get a COD.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Quixotic
Let me provide an example.
This is a tale of two Ralts; a RT4 located here in Australia, and a RT5 located in the US. Both are in very good condition and ready to race. Both are also in a very similar spec. You'd imagine that they would be worth a similar amount, right? Wrong!
The Aussie car is for sale for $80,000 AUD, the US car $30,150 AUD...

Sounds like the law of supply and demand, John
It might be that there are similar numbers of people interested in buying such cars in Australia and the US, but a lot more stock available in America
I don't really think Australian sellers hike their prices up to keep out FV drivers

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by David McKinney


I don't really think Australian sellers hike their prices up to keep out FV drivers

Your right, they do it to keep away a lot of others as well.

I posted this in another forum but I'm sure you can get my gist..

Anyway the racing boys "go and buy a new toy mentality" makes me laugh because in a Race car shop it's $100 bucks, in a Rally shop it's $45 and put a dollar on the fridge and get your own beer out of the fridge, in a Speedway or Offroad shop it's $28 and you'll get a free beer on a Friday night - all for the same part

I have a good freind who builds race cars in Australia and restores historics as well and he just loves how much the historic Guys are willing to pay - he has used the word "wooducks" on several occasions.

[Catalina Park]

If you think $80,000 is dear for an RT4, wait till you bend it. The purchace price is only a small part of running one of these cars. How much are wishbones? How much are nose boxes?
I worked on one in the early 80's, and when they were new I couldn't afford to fix one let alone buy one.

[fines]

Is it just me, or shouldn't an RT4 be more expensive than an RT5 anyway? I'm not terribly sure about period prices, but I'd reckon a new RT4 would've cost about 30 % more back in the eighties, even without the engine. Super Vees were economy racing, compared to Mondials.

[Quixotic]

Just for your info.........

I have no interest in RALTs. I just thought it was an interstting comparasion.

I am not saying that people are hiking prices to keep Fvee drivers out. I rather think that some of you have missed the point of my post.

As one gent said....... Supply and Demand at work. Two cars, similar spec, similar condition, and a Massive price differential. That was my point.

My experience with some historic car racers may not be typical. However they are my experiences, and im every group dynamic, you have snobbish egotistical eliteist types.

I have found some exceptional people, such as Mike Shearer, (Cooper Formula Junior), and Geoff Fry, (Jolus Formula Junior), who are warm, personable, and happy that someone actually has an interest in what they race. There are many more that I have met who are also lovely people. In the main these people are more common.

The eliteist types are really a minority. A noisy minority, but a minority none the less.

I did not mean this to be taken as derogatory to all historic car racers. God....... I am hugely interested in them myself.

Only $$$$ keep me out. So I guess that money really does keep the "Riff Raff" like me out.

Regards,

John Swensen

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
If you think $80,000 is dear for an RT4, wait till you bend it. The purchace price is only a small part of running one of these cars. How much are wishbones? How much are nose boxes?
I worked on one in the early 80's, and when they were new I couldn't afford to fix one let alone buy one.

What about engine repair/rebuild costs ????

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
What about engine repair/rebuild costs????

Terrifying!
I would hate to be running a BDA these days. They are a great engine but I think that the blokes running them at peak revs would have to have very deep pockets to keep them running.

Now about costs in Australian Historics... Why do I have to change so many things on a 40 year old Vee to upgrade it for Historics? Shouldn't they be running in the spec of the time? And not running to 1990/2000s rules?

[Quixotic]

They just want a level playing field. I am looking for a old Vee called a Venom No one can seem to put me in the right direction to find one.

They were somewhat flexible I have heard.

I sold my Mk1 Nimbus to finance the completion of the Stinger. But I still have my Avanti.

Regards,

John Swensen

[2Bob]

I would love a Ralt but certainly couldn't afford to run one! And aren't RT5s the ones with a Golf engine while the RT4s had BDAs? Would explain a bit of difference in price!

For historics a clubman is (almost) affordable (a historic FF isn't too bad either and probably cheaper to maintain). Buy one already racing though! I just spent $15,000.00 (that's how much I admit to to my wife) on restoring my ASP and am about to spend $1,500.00 or so for a set of Avon tyres to replace the $100.00 second hand F3 tyres, just to go about 4 secs a lap quicker (I hope it is the tyres and not me!). Damn here we go again on that money spending thing to go quicker!

I have to say that all the historic drivers/owners seem to be pretty nice people in my experience. Only thing wrong with most of them (there are one or two exceptions) is that they are all ancient (like me). Where is the new talent coming through? All in FF I guess. Now THAT is expensive if you are serious.

All above $ are Australian, currently $Aud 1.00 = $US 0.82 or so.

[cosworth bdg]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catalina Park
[B]Terrifying!
I would hate to be running a BDA these days. They are a great engine but I think that the blokes running them at peak revs would have to have very deep pockets to keep them running.

I am restoring a Historic Sports Sedan [ legal ]] Group 'U' with a Ford BDG & the Engine costs are frightenig , i am lucky i can do all the labour myself.......

[xbgs351]

Originally posted by Quixotic


If I was to buy the Yankee car... Well, with the cost of sea freight getting that car and the mountain of spares that come with it, paying all duties and taxes and, getting an Historic Certificate of Description to allow the car to race as an historic car and purchasing a new trailer to haul the stuff all around, I would still have change from $40,000 AUD.

Interesting about the figure of $40,000 for an importing a RT5 as: http://www.my105.com...ied.asp?id=8337

Looking at the add, one obvious reason why the RT4 should be more expensive is that the RT5 runs a Hewland Mk9, compared to the RT4 which runs a FT200.

[cheapracer]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cosworth bdg
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catalina Park
[B]Terrifying!
I would hate to be running a BDA these days. They are a great engine but I think that the blokes running them at peak revs would have to have very deep pockets to keep them running.

I am restoring a Historic Sports Sedan [ legal ]] Group 'U' with a Ford BDG & the Engine costs are frightenig , i am lucky i can do all the labour myself....... [/QUOTE]

Can you give some price examples please? rods, cranks etc.? Whats the big cost.....

[fines]

Originally posted by 2Bob
And aren't RT5s the ones with a Golf engine while the RT4s had BDAs? Would explain a bit of difference in price!

Originally posted by xbgs351
Looking at the add, one obvious reason why the RT4 should be more expensive is that the RT5 runs a Hewland Mk9, compared to the RT4 which runs a FT200.

That's exactly what I was trying to say, these cars are definitely not "in a very similar spec"!

[Catalina Park]

So apart from the engine, gearbox, wheels, body and chassis they are almost identical.

[xbgs351]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
So apart from the engine, gearbox, wheels, body and chassis they are almost identical.

You forgot brakes and I also think the fuel tank.

[Peter Brennan]

Originally posted by fines


That's exactly what I was trying to say, these cars are definitely not "in a very similar spec"!

Spot on,i am currently running an RT4.

RT5 & RT4 are very different cars.The only common parts are suspension rockers,A arms,uprights and some body panels.Plus at this point in time the Aussie Historic commission does not recognize Super Vee. If they were accepted it will be in 1600cc[190hp] form not 1835cc[230hp] as most are now.

A good example of a BDD and FT200 would amount to $40kAUD.A Golf and MK9 $12k AUD.

On top of that you have larger[expensive] brakes and wings.

On the reliability of a BDD,if you rev limit them to 9200rpm they are not expensive to run. The Golfs will not be lot cheaper combined with a MK9.

Would be pleased to advise further if required.
Pete

[Quixotic]

Ok........

I'll admit my error. It seems to be like comparing a ferarri with a hyundai.

I will happily pull my head in now.

Regards,

John Swensen

[xbgs351]

Besides if you want to race a Golf powered race car that runs a Hewland Mk9 in historics, just buy an Australian Formula 2. They are lot cheaper than the Atlantics, but they aren't that much slower.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Peter Brennan


Spot on,i am currently running an RT4

On the reliability of a BDD,if you rev limit them to 9200rpm they are not expensive to run. The Golfs will not be lot cheaper combined with a MK9.

Would be pleased to advise further if required.
Pete

Peter, very few if any stick to the rev limit you mentioned on both brand new engines & rebuilt high milege engines, i have witnesed new BDA/G engines destroyed sticking to the rev limit you quoted ,& this is both in and out of Historics........ in fact the Drivers of Historic cars are some of worst in the treatment of both cars & mechanical components eg, engines and gearboxes.....