17 replies to this topic

[circa1939]

Hello. I'm new to the forum.

After coming up VERY short on the internet on some solid info concerning examples of what frames were used with what chassis parts on early 1920s-30s racing cars I figured I'd try and see if I could secure some good solid info here.

So, I was hoping you might be able to help me out with my quest for info?

My questions are as such:

- What were the typical elliptical sprung chassis (frames) that were used in the 20s through the 30s? (Essex, Chevy, Pontiac??)

- can you give me a shematic of a typical racing chassis (other than a Model T speedster with T chassis) in the 20s-30s?
(Eg. frame, front end, rear, trans, engine, etc.)

- How much were hopped up Model T eninges actually used and seen in the dirt track racing world in the 20s-30s?

- If I wanted to go with an elliptical sprung frame combo, what would be a good choice to be perod correct in the 1920s, early 30s?

- What is the history of such early knock-off wheels such as the "Buffalo" whels? Were they an aftermarket company or a company offering a complete hub spindle, wheel, etc.??

Where might I get a copy of the patterns to make a Miller style radiator shell?

Thanks a million in advance! Any help is greatly appreciated!!!!!

[Doug Nye]

Err - I can't bear to see a newcomer's interesting post go unanswered, so hello c.1939 and welcome to TNF. I can't quite see what you're driving at in the way your questions are phrased. Are you under the impression that all 'racing cars' of this period were somehow production-based, or are you only interested in those racing cars which were???? There are many enthusiastic specialists in the period who frequent this place who could give you effectively chapter and verse...

DCN

[McGuire]

Originally posted by circa1939



My questions are as such:

- What were the typical elliptical sprung chassis (frames) that were used in the 20s through the 30s? (Essex, Chevy, Pontiac??)

Essex frame rails were favored as they were strong, light, and had the right kickup at the rear. Also cheap and plentiful in junkyards.

- How much were hopped up Model T eninges actually used and seen in the dirt track racing world in the 20s-30s?

Quite a bit in grassroots forms of American racing, at least until they were obsoleted by other, more modern engines including the Model A Ford.

Where might I get a copy of the patterns to make a Miller style radiator shell?

Miller shells were scratch-built, but for the more basic types of race cars we are talking about above, the nose shell and other complex body panels were often fabricated from junkyard body parts cut apart for their compound shapes and then rejoined. For example, if you take the rear roof turret of a mid-'30s American sedan, take some out of the middle and join then the two corners together, you have the classic dirt car nose, including perhaps even the grille opening in some cases (where the rear window glass was). If you can picture it:

[circa1939]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I can't quite see what you're driving at in the way your questions are phrased. Are you under the impression that all 'racing cars' of this period were somehow production-based, or are you only interested in those racing cars which were???? There are many enthusiastic specialists in the period who frequent this place who could give you effectively chapter and verse...

DCN

Thank you very much for the reply.

To hopefully clarify things a bit,...

I am looking for info on the various topics regarding the chassis that were built, the different items that were used, etc. Looking to refine and better my knowledge on the topics I had in question specifically.

I had talked with an old timer who told me that from what he recalled, many times there were racers of this era who would use production frames, the likes of many who used the dual elliptical spring setup, as well as others (miller, Offy among others I'm thinking??) that did not use any production frames?

I know that race cars of this era were not production based, but had been under the impression that some components, sometimes of the production kind were used (ie. frames, front axles, enignes, etc.) I'm interested in the cars that were being built by sponsors of the time, with the money to do so, hence producing many of the Miller ofy-like cars,....AND the flip side,...the little guy in his garage building with what he had in that era.

Thank you very much in advance.

[circa1939]

McGuire....

Thanks so much for taking the time to delve into each and every topic I had inquired about. Allof it is GREATLY appreciated! I'm looking to build an era-correct racer for my personal learning and experience and to hopefully get others involved and interested in the same thing, the history and so on, and to furthur the great world of the early times of racing through living history, and possibly doing display runs at dirt tracks??

It may be a pipe dream, but i'd rather shoot for the stars than reach for the milk,...so to speak.;)

Thank you so much!

Ok guys,..keep it comin'!!! History class is in session, I'm a young fellow and I'm willing to learn!!

[circa1939]

Originally posted by McGuire


Essex frame rails were favored as they were strong, light, and had the right kickup at the rear. Also cheap and plentiful in junkyards.



Quite a bit in grassroots forms of American racing, at least until they were obsoleted by other, more modern engines including the Model A Ford.

Ok so, for the most part If I were to build a period correct racing car, would the Essex frame be the norm, or were such frames from the early Chevy and/or Pontiac, etc. also seen almost as much on the boards, dirt, etc??

If the others were rarely seen (other than the Essex) where might I be able to get my hands on a good frame, or at the very least, the main rails?? I'm a welder by profession, so i can take it from there if I had something to start with.

Regarding engines,....so it was often the sight to behold the average T engine with, say an Alexander, Rajo, Fronty, etc. head on it then,....OTHER than the amazing Offy, Duesenburgs, etc. that were out there?

Thanks.
Yes, and any help in finding a correct frame as a basis will be GREATLY appreciated!!!

Again, thank you.

[fredeuce]

Find below some extracts from an artcile published by Ray Kuns in the late 30's on the topic. I will need to re-scan the remainder of the document to cover the entire article.

I believe this was published in the 5th ed. of his series of publications entitled " Automobile Racing" .

You can pick these publications up on ebay from time to time. Well worth the investment.

[antonvrs]

One of the Ray Kuns books has a very interesting article on the '32 Studebaker 2-man Indy cars. IIRC, their frames and those of a number of other period Indy cars were built by Herman Rigling and were pretty successful. In fact, Phil "Red" Shafer ran a Buick 8 powered version at the German GP at the Nurburgring in '32 or thereabouts. He didn't finish but what an adventure that must have been!
A lot of the sprint cars of the early '30s were "3 spring" cars with, for instance, a Chrysler tubular front axle and parallel leaves with an early Ford cross leaf rear axle.
Unfortunately most, if not all, of the guys who knew how to build these cars and make them work are gone now.
Anton

[circa1939]

Guys, thank you very much for all of your help with this.

After seeing the Ray Kuns scan, I realized I had picked up that book and read up with it.

I suppose my aim in design and info lies more so in the 1920s than the mid 1930s and onward.

I have been scanning the net and have noticed some intereting frames where "some" actually resemble the old Pontiac and Chevy frames as I look at them. Maybe early 20s???

Anyone have any lines on a 26-27 Essex frame or frame rails??

[dbw]

circa;
just buy a copy of mark dees "miller dynasty"...it has enough great photos and even dimensioned miller drawings to make the whole car...a 91 rear drive would be nice.

[circa1939]

DBW....

Thank you,...that's a great idea!

[fines]

... and one for me, too!

Seriously, many early twenties Specials were built from Model T frames, but you could buy semi-finished products of ANY ilk at the various speed shops: Morton-Brett, Frontenac, Laurel-Roof etc. Depending on your skill level (and ability or will to spend money), you could put together a racing car like a jigsaw puzzle. Ford parts were always popular, but in the late twenties/early thirties Essex and Whippet frames and Franklin front axles slowly replaced the relevant Ford parts.

As for Model T engines, many ran quite successfully into the thirties, since replacement parts (including the block) were incredibly cheap. Model A and B Fords would soon replace them at the front of the more prestigious events, but the Ts lived on in the minor leagues for many years. Other engines in use in the early twenties were Chevy 490 and Dodge. Roughly, of 100 cars ninety were Fords, seven Chevys, two Dodges and one or another oddity to make up the numbers.

But I sense a bit of a misconception there in your queries: these cars we're talking about here raced ONLY on the dirt tracks (with very, very, very few exceptions!), while the so-called Speedway Cars that ran on the board tracks were completely different animals! The latter had, almost without fail, a classical four-spring layout, while dirt track cars usually had only two transverse ones. Speedway Cars had mostly 8-cylinder engines, dirt track cars fours. Speedway Cars were expensive, dirt track cars... well, dirt cheap!;)

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Err - I can't bear to see a newcomer's interesting post go unanswered, so hello c.1939 and welcome to TNF. I can't quite see what you're driving at in the way your questions are phrased. Are you under the impression that all 'racing cars' of this period were somehow production-based, or are you only interested in those racing cars which were???? There are many enthusiastic specialists in the period who frequent this place who could give you effectively chapter and verse...

DCN

Doug, I guess this poster wasn't (isn't?) aware of European style racing in the era, or perhaps he just happened to forget about the gulf between the Two Worlds in the twenties!?

[circa1939]

Fines...

thank you so much for all the helpful insight into the dirt track realm.
Yes, I am indeed at a lack of knowledge regarding the differences between the dirt track world, which from what I gather looks to be where the average shop down the street could go and compete, but the boards were much more expersive and required more money, etc which was realatively tough to come by in those days for most folks?

...am I correct??

So, in actuality, did you still see, maybe on a smaller scale, the garage down the street pull together and have board track cars back in the 20s, or was it strictly a rich-man's game?

Lastly, you say that most board trackers used four springs,....so is it fair then by what you've written, to assume that the four spring or even three spring chassis didn't see the dirt,...or just didn't see the dirt "as much"??


Thanks guys!!

[fines]

Correct, yes. Board track = Speedway Racing was the high-end of the sport, and the occasional appearance of a low-tech dirt tracker did nothing to change that - you simply didn't have a chance with a four-banger against the high-powered Millers and Duesenbergs. It was pointless.

About the four-springers, of course some of the Speedway cars also appeared on the dirt tracks, especially the longer ones (miles), but on the half-miles the two-springers had a distinct advantage, apart from the torquey four-banger and the usually shorter chassis. Still, there were many three- and four-springers about on the dirt, from the homebuilt crowd.

[circa1939]

Also....

Where would I start to look if i wanted to see if there were any local tracks, and more so,...any local racers on the dirt tracks or board tracks here in Pennsylvania, USA?

Thanks

[fines]

At your local newspaper, library etc.

[fredeuce]

Cicra 1939,
Fines is correct about the basis of the "grease monkey" style of backyard built dirt track racer in the 1920's. Early Ford components figured prominently although there were some hot Chevy four powered cars too. There is a useful article on the subject written by the late John Burgess published in Petersen's "Complete Chevrolet Book" 4th ed. (1975).

Find below a set of scans of another article on an earlier dirt track car with DOHC Frontenac conversion on a Model T block. This is also a Ray Kuns design. These plans were published in his "Automobile Racing " 3rd ed. but also apparently in another publication "Modern Mechanix and Inventions' in August 1933. The scans below are from a reprint of them published in the Oct 1977 ed. of "1001 Rod and Custom Ideas".

As for researching old tracks there is a very useful publication entitled "Americas Speedways" by Allen E Brown. This deals with the subject on the basis of chapters for the various States and also Canada. Still available I believe.

[circa1939]

Wow!

Well, that was a great article you just posted! Its interesting that they used a Model T frame and then added the 1/8" metal to it rather than just to go with an Essex, Whippet, or other frame that had both those same lines and the girth they eventually add to the Model T frame??

Thanks again, that's a really great bit of info you took the time to post. Thanks again!