102 replies to this topic

[bankoq]

Make your choice: which team it was better to be part of in 2008 to have biggest chances to become a champion?

Please take into consideration:

- realiability

- how good and clever were the team's strategies

- how competetive the car was in relation to the other team

- team's competence in pit-stops (how fast the pit-stops were and how many silly mistakes the team made)

Give me your opinion please.

[Andromeda]

Reliability - McLaren
Team Strategy - McLaren
Outright Performance - Ferrari
Pit Stop - McLaren

Overall McLaren has been the better team but as far as speed goes Ferrari have completely dominated McLaren.

[Imperial]

You should have put a "no preference" in this poll, hence I'm not voting.

I think they've both done just as good a job as each other at times and just as bad a job as each other at times.

It's impossible to say either was better.

The answer you are going to end up with at the end of this poll will decide solely on which team has the most fanboys logging on and voting during the poll.

Can you get the mods to add a third option to the poll?

[Trident]

The Ferrarri has something like 12 fastest laps so its clearly the fastest car and this makes up for the few reliability issues the team has had. The speed of the car should make up for it over 18 races easily. So Ferrari was the car to be in this year.

[santori]

For Lewis - McLaren

For Felipe - Ferrari

For Kimi - probably McLaren

[brunopascal]

I am undecided, there should have been an option for this in the poll. I'm leaning slightly towards Ferrari though.

[BMW_F1]

If I was a driver I would,'t want to work for Mclaren, they are too stuck up and treat their drivers like Robots. If I had to pick between these two, I will go with ferrari.

[Buttoneer]

As a driver confident in my ability to kick serious arse out on the circuit, I think I'd have to opt for Ferrari.

You'd have to assume that you could extract all the performance out of the car, and you'd have to assume that the bad luck goes to the other guy.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by Andromeda
Reliability - McLaren
Team Strategy - McLaren
Outright Performance - Ferrari
Pit Stop - McLaren

Overall McLaren has been the better team but as far as speed goes Ferrari have completely dominated McLaren.

Like in China?

IMO McLaren was the best team and they also had the best car. There might have been tracks where Ferrari was indeed dominant, but there were also tracks and circumstances where McLaren was dominat + they had fantastic reliability and team work, something that Ferrari did not.

[Tenmantaylor]

Ferrari appears to be the fastest car so I'd choose that one. Lewis has made the difference in the McLaren IMO, as he and Alonso did last year.

The McLaren team's pitwork and strategy has been much better than Ferrari this year though.

[kar]

I'm not sure. The Ferrari has been the faster car but to often on the days they've been quickest either the drivers or the package has let them down.

It's also hard to quantify just how awesome Lewis has been this season - i.e. is it that Heikki is rubbish and the car is great, or is it that the car is average and Lewis is incredible?

I have a feeling the truth is a bit in the middle, the Ferrari is quicker most of the time but Lewis has managed to wring the neck out of the car, and he has had favourable reliability.

Ferrari on the other hand have had rubbish luck/reliability but on average benefited more from regulatory intervention than suffered. They have lost more points through pitlane and engine disasters than they have gained though the stewards though.

I dunno, I have a feeling if Massa had to drive Lewis' McLaren and Lewis was driving Felipe's Ferrari, Lewis would be kicking his heels up about now and chillin like a villain.

Maybe that's the telling thing?

[bankoq]

If there is a moderator reading the thread please add third option: "undecided". Thanks in advance!

[Bumper]

Added

[Dragonfly]

I voted McLaren. Apart from reliability advantage, they have more flexible and easier to setup car no hesitation who of their drivers is the title contender.

[Mika Mika]

Really Hard Question Kimi i think its fair to say has struggled this season. I think the Ferrari is the flat out better car, but the McLaren team is cunning (bit like Audi in Lemans)

The Lewis - Heikki question is difficult. Ham obviously is very good but I just can't tell how good. Has Heikki been underwhelming like Kimi? Is the McLaren as good as the Ferrari? Or Can Hamiltons skill/abilitys actually cash the cheques his ego is writing?

[pacwest]

Originally posted by Andromeda

Outright Performance - Ferrari

It has rained in four races this year. I give performance to Mclaren.

[Andromeda]

Originally posted by Galko877


Like in China?

IMO McLaren was the best team and they also had the best car. There might have been tracks where Ferrari was indeed dominant, but there were also tracks and circumstances where McLaren was dominat + they had fantastic reliability and team work, something that Ferrari did not.

Well every driver has their great race Massa had his superb race in Valencia and Hamilton has his superb race in China.

But hands down McLaren have had the better reliability. Team Strategy it was a hard choice for me on that one after the Japanese Grand Prix. In the end I picked McLaren because the start McLaren did was great they planned it perfectly but the drivers very poorly executed it. Had that been successful Raikkonen could've lost that position to Heikki as well.

Fastest team in outright Speed is easily Ferrari. Massa has had great drives this year in Hungary, Valencia and Singapore. (Excluding the team letting Massa down).

But the pit stop is fairly obvious after Singapore which goes to McLaren as the better team.

[Orin]

Originally posted by bankoq
Make your choice: which team it was better to be part of in 2008 to have biggest chances to become a champion?

realiability

Both teams are pretty good, but Hamilton's McLaren has looked the best.

how good and clever were the team's strategies

Typically conservative strategies from McLaren. There's not been much to choose between the teams, but Ferrari's tyre gamble at Silverstone was unnecessary.

how competetive the car was in relation to the other team

Ferrari has looked marginally better for most of the season.

team's competence in pit-stops




Ferrari's perhaps slightly better, but for their pitstop fiascos alone leave them second to McLaren, especially with the length of time it took them to dump the light system. I think had the season not been so unusually wet Ferrari would have fared better, but in 2008 McLaren have had the upper hand.

[airwise]

Hamilton in a Ferrari this year would have wrapped up the WDC by Monza I suspect.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by bankoq
If there is a moderator reading the thread please add third option: "undecided". Thanks in advance!

Nice one dude, I've voted now!

[pacwest]

Originally posted by airwise
Hamilton in a Ferrari this year would have wrapped up the WDC by Monza I suspect.

I handily predict that you will never, ever, ever see Hammy in the scarlet jumpers.

[SevenTwoSeven]

Originally posted by pacwest


I handily predict that you will never, ever, ever see Hammy in the scarlet jumpers.

Until 5 or 6 years down the road, when Ron Dennis retires and Mercedes take over the team/sold the team. Alonsos just enjoyed a pretty dismal first season at Ferrari, but new Ferrari team boss Mr Schumacher employs the services of one L. Hamilton. What a corker of a season that would be

[kar]

Originally posted by pacwest


I handily predict that you will never, ever, ever see Hammy in the scarlet jumpers.

I wouldn't want to bet on that. Hamilton is driven by money and Hamilton + Ferrari is a gold mine waiting to be exploited.

He needs to complete his traineeship at McLaren though. We want him polished first... :-)

[Jacquesback]

Ferrari clearly have the best car of 2008. Lewis would have wrapped up the title 5 races ago in a Ferrari.

[pacwest]

Funny how Tifosi hate him until they ponder that he may drive for Scarletta Murderia Barnmarlo.

[Hippo]

Not voting, because if i was a racing driver and could choose between those two i'd certainly get a cockpit in a team that i like more. So i'm not undecided either.;)

But if i was forced to choose i'd pick Maccas. I just don't like the attitude of Ferrari that much. While they are as eager to win as Macca are the Scuderia is just trying to blame others too much if they fail. Maybe it's just my perception.

I'd rather drive Adrian Neweys RBR. The suits are looking much better. And there's only 1 sponsor to satisfy, so far less PR stuff to do. And there wouldn't be like 98% of the fans always fighting about me.

[Mika Mika]

Originally posted by kar


I wouldn't want to bet on that. Hamilton is driven by money and Hamilton + Ferrari is a gold mine waiting to be exploited.

He needs to complete his traineeship at McLaren though. We want him polished first... :-)

I can see it however I think it would also depend on Ferrari remaining competitive over the next few years...

Before everyone jumps me for that comment If id of told you Williams would be bring up the rear 5 years ago you would have laughed at me...

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by santori
For Lewis - McLaren

For Felipe - Ferrari

For Kimi - probably McLaren

+ For Kovy - Ferrari.

[Ricardo F1]

Undecided. It's been a very even season, a WDC could easily come (and could have come) from either team. Ferrari edge on performance, McLaren on reliability. Thus far.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by kar
Hamilton is driven by money

Wow, way to TOTALLY misread Mr Hamilton or ANY F1 driver.

"Actually Peter, I just got into F1 to make a bundle." Like Mr Schumacher, Senna, Raikonnen and other great drivers I'm sure Lewis will go to Ferrari - IF they have a better shot for him to get the WDC.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by airwise
Hamilton in a Ferrari this year would have wrapped up the WDC by Monza I suspect.

Not sure by Monza, but one would assume the FIA would be on HIS side - so certainly by now.

[bankoq]

Originally posted by airwise
Hamilton in a Ferrari this year would have wrapped up the WDC by Monza I suspect.

You will never know. Ferrari has understeery car this year and that perfectly matches Felipe Massa. Lewis & Kimi love oversteery cars and McLaren usually built that kind of cars before. That's why Kimi shined in McLaren days and overall struggled in Ferrari so far. I think Lewis would have some similar problems to Kimi in F2008 this year - AFAIK MP4-23 is veeery oversteery and F2008 is exactly the opposite.

I haven't give my vote yet so...

1) reliability - no question about that McLaren by a mile (especially Lewis' car)
2) strategies - again McLaren, maybe they didn't have mega clever strategies but still were much better than Ferrari
3) performance of the car - Ferrari edges McLaren but only very slighty
4) pit-stops - Ferrari made some moronic mistakes like not fueling Massa's car in Canada, not putting on proper tires on Kimi car on time in Monaco, very bad Felipe's pit-stop in Singapore etc. thus McLaren must be the choice

So overall for me it is obvious it was the best to be in McLaren in 2008 to have best tools to become WDC.

So far we have about 55% of votes on McLaren and 31% on Ferrari. Actually, I thought it will be more 50/50 but in my opinion the results of the poll so far show pretty good how the things really are.

[as65p]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Not sure by Monza, but one would assume the FIA would be on HIS side - so certainly by now.

How would that work? All other things being equal he would have made the same number of personal errors plus being screwed by team errors and bad reliabilty at least twice. And he would have a teammate that races him.

He would be in a worse position than he is now for the WDC.

[Wouter]

Don't forget that Kovalainen has had a lot of problems this year (his 2 last races his car was unreliable and/or he had wrongly mounted tyres, and he had the malfunction in Barcelona as well). It just so happens that the problems at Ferrari were distributed pretty evenly, this year.

Also, McLaren is more likely to get penalties that hit really hard, as demonstrated by the contrast between the (non)penalties in Valencia, Spa, Monza and Singapore - Ferrari gets the penalty when it doesn't matter, McLaren when it does. That's also a factor in for which team it was better to drive in 2008.

[otoelpiloto]

mclaren (if your name is lewis) had the best car, piece of cake the championship

[undersquare]

Originally posted by as65p


How would that work? All other things being equal he would have made the same number of personal errors plus being screwed by team errors and bad reliabilty at least twice. And he would have a teammate that races him.

He would be in a worse position than he is now for the WDC.

I keep wondering if Ferrari would have been better at communicating with him. Smedley for example I suspect would say more than Prew/Hallam. If that were the case then in Malaysia he'd have been told more clearly the BMW in question was Heidfeld at speed not Kubi who was in his mirrors at the time. No blocking penalty. Maybe in Bahrain the Ferrari start map selection gives some indication whether or not it's been successful - a good start and no crash with FA.

In Canada, perhaps he'd have been reminded about the light in time instead of just too late. In France, no grid place drop and a check with Charlie and he lets Vettel back through, no penalty (though he wouldn't have been behind Vettel anyway).

It could get quite complicated trying to work it all out. How would Lewis have got on at Silverstone and Hockenhem, in the Ferrari?

And Kimi probably would have done better at McLaren, a nice pointy car set up for him by Mark Slade - barring the culture clash of course .

[MikeTekRacing]

Originally posted by Orin

realiability

Both teams are pretty good, but Hamilton's McLaren has looked the best.

melbourne, kimi, massa engine failures
france kimi exhaust failure
hungaroring massa engine failure
valencia kimi engine failure

on the other hand you have just
spa, china - heikki

pretty good both of them? yeah, sure

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by as65p
And he would have a teammate that races him.

Doesn't mean he'd get beat by him any more than he's been beaten by Heikki.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
on the other hand you have just
spa, china - heikki

pretty good both of them? yeah, sure

Tyre - Hungary - Lewis, China - Heikki
Wheel issue - Spain - Heikki
Engine - Japan - Heikki

[bankoq]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Doesn't mean he'd get beat by him any more than he's been beaten by Heikki.

Or vice versa if had same problems as Raikkonen and it is probable because both of them like the same kind of cars which was McLaren this year. You will never know.

Originally posted by undersquare


I keep wondering if Ferrari would have been better at communicating with him. Smedley for example I suspect would say more than Prew/Hallam. If that were the case then in Malaysia he'd have been told more clearly the BMW in question was Heidfeld at speed not Kubi who was in his mirrors at the time. No blocking penalty. Maybe in Bahrain the Ferrari start map selection gives some indication whether or not it's been successful - a good start and no crash with FA.

In Canada, perhaps he'd have been reminded about the light in time instead of just too late. In France, no grid place drop and a check with Charlie and he lets Vettel back through, no penalty (though he wouldn't have been behind Vettel anyway).

It could get quite complicated trying to work it all out. How would Lewis have got on at Silverstone and Hockenhem, in the Ferrari?

And Kimi probably would have done better at McLaren, a nice pointy car set up for him by Mark Slade - barring the culture clash of course .

Maybe Kimi would stop ahead of lights in Canada by his own if he was in McLaren in 2008 (like he did in Ferrari), maybe he wouldn't have problem with selecting start map on time (Heikki didn't have), maybe he would dominate all wet races in McLaren?

It's all wishful thinking. You can't check it by any means.

The same I could say if Kubica was in McLaren this year and had Lewis' reliability with his consistency he would easily get 6 points on average in every race and that gives 6 * 18 = 108 so he would be WDC easily leading the tables probably all the season long.

It's all ifs and none of this is comparable until the situation really exists.

[gaston_foix]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Tyre - Hungary - Lewis, China - Heikki
Wheel issue - Spain - Heikki
Engine - Japan - Heikki

Tyre - Hungary - Lewis - only if u are a Lewis fan.

It's simple:

For Lewis it is McLaren, for others Ferrari. SO I'm undecided.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by bankoq


Or vice versa if had same problems as Raikkonen and it is probable because both of them like the same kind of cars which was McLaren this year. You will never know.

Maybe Kimi would stop ahead of lights in Canada by his own if he was in McLaren in 2008 (like he did in Ferrari), maybe he wouldn't have problem with selecting start map on time (Heikki didn't have), maybe he would dominate all wet races in McLaren?

It's all wishful thinking. You can't check it by any means.

The same I could say if Kubica was in McLaren this year and had Lewis' reliability with his consistency he would easily get 6 points on average in every race and that gives 6 * 18 = 108 so he would be WDC easily leading the tables probably all the season long.

It's all ifs and none of this is comparable until the situation really exists.

It's tempting to select the differences that suit your preferred driver, and question the others, for sure. Also in the first part of the season there were several races where Mac strangely put Lewis on the option tyre early in the race instead of at the end when the track would have suited them better. Another team variable.

On Kubica, it would be great to see him in a Mac or Ferrari. I have no idea how fast the BMW car was this year, really.

[alfa1]

Both about the same. Both produced machines capable of winning championships. Both had the occasional mistake and failure.

Ultimately it came down to what the drivers were doing with that machinery.

[Gecko]

When taking things into account, one also shouldn't forget the inevitable FIA performance reduction that comes in the way of penalties.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Tyre - Hungary - Lewis

Lewis generally seems to have more tyre problems than others. IMO it's down to his driving style more than anything else. I remember, before the Hungarian race pundits have warned Lewis will have to be cautious with the tyres with his style.

[craftverk]

Originally posted by Galko877


Lewis generally seems to have more tyre problems than others. IMO it's down to his driving style more than anything else. I remember, before the Hungarian race pundits have warned Lewis will have to be cautious with the tyres with his style.

Actually that is incorrect. Heikki seems to have more tire issues than Lewis. During that very same Hungarian GP, Heikki was no where, about 8 seconds behind Lewis or so? Surely Heikki would've caught him up if he was wearing his tires as much as you say.

And also note that he was on the harder tire, not the soft. And because he had to pit, he had to do a 30 lap stint on the supersofts but he received no puncture.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by gaston_foix
Tyre - Hungary - Lewis - only if u are a Lewis fan.

Are you saying his tyre didn't puncture? Like Heikki's in China??

[F1Champion]

A bit of a hard question. The Ferrari has definately shown flashes of great speed but it has had far too many been peaks and troughs over the course of the season while the McLaren has always been up there consistently competing. The F2008 has been far too sensitive of a car which is why the McLaren in my opinion is a better car, because it has been consistent week in and week out, and over the course of a season that pays massively.

The F2008 has depended far too much on track temperature, ambient temperature and tyre softness and it absolutely sucked in the rain. Meanwhile the McLaren doesn't rely on any of these and performs whatever the condition. We haven't even got to reliability yet....which has been shocking on the Ferrari. Michael Schumacher always said that he wanted a reliable car over a fast one and he is totally right. I would rather have a car that would always be consistently getting podiums whatever the conditions, and would take advantage of a competitors performance issues on several occasions over a season and was always 100% bulletproof (McLaren) rather than a split personality car that was very quick one weekend and at sea the next and occassionally broke down (Ferrari)....a bit of a no brainer really.

You cannot play down the huge advantage of getting your setup sorted by Friday and then solely concentrating on the race. The Ferraris were still chasing setup on Saturday which is too late in my opinion. Even at this late course of the season Ferrari struggled with the setup of Kimi's/Massa's car and it only sorted itself in qualifying, while Lewis was flying from FP1 onwards. Its a massive advantage to not have to chase the setup.

Ferrari come to each race weekend hoping external factors will bring their car into play....which is no way to race and build a car in my opinion.

OT - Don't get me started on Ferrari's pit/race strategy!

[Bos]

I think it depends on which driver. Kimi, Lewis: McLaren. Massa, Kovi: Ferrari

I'd go for the McLaren.

It's much better in the wet. It's comparable in the dry. Strategies are OK (if you were Lewis). And this year Bridgestone are a little safer, opting bringing harder tyres to the some races. And Ferrari in Singapore and China...not the most inspiring.

I think Kimi and Kovi would have done at least 20 points better had they swapped cars.

[Gareth]

Close run thing, IMO. The Ferrari's very regularly been the fastest car on a dry weekend over the season. But there have been more rain affected races than usual, which has helped out McLaren. Ferrari are also slightly less reliable and have made a couple of errors that have cost their drivers (tyres in Silverstone for Kimi, Singapore pit stop for Massa). Overall I think it's pretty even.

The possible tie breaker is how much you think stewards' decisions are influenced by the colour of the car invovled ...