198 replies to this topic

[917historian]

Mike There's a heck of a crowd in the photo if it is practice ! I've looked at all the Monza photos in the book & there's very few trackside adverts visible. You will see the red #11 car at Monza had the original nose, whereas in the photo posted earlier it has the one piece nose (you can see the silver strips) and the roof mounted mirror, not present at Monza.
You're going to love this book Mike. I was impressed by the Fodisch and the Hezard, but they're left behind by the Smale collection of photos...

Mike,

just received the book, excellent, even though there are some mistakes the some photos regarding the years. I think that you are right and the car is definately from Hockenheim. The race # has always been quoted as #30 for this race. Looks like the Zitro chassis ran with this race #30.

Andy,

Looks like you were correct with the race.

The 2 photos of Pipers car #11 and 14, not sure if one of them has been photshopped

. Like Mike asked have you received my email?

[mfd]

The 2 photos of Pipers car #11 and 14, not sure if one of them has been photoshopped

All the people in the background are in exactly the same place...

[917historian]

All the people in the background are in exactly the same place...

The correct photo is #14 from the BOAC 1000kms at Brands Hatch

[andydolermo]

Definately BOAC 1000, 1970. I agree.
Some people have fun in modifying pictures and then they drive us crazy! Speacking of which.... did anybody saw the 6-wheeled Porsche Carrera 6? Amoug the fake pictures at least that looks so wild it`s obvious it cannot be real at all.

[mfd]

did anybody saw the 6-wheeled Porsche Carrera 6? Amoug the fake pictures at least that looks so wild it`s obvious it cannot be real at all.

You might know the answer Andy...have I seen a model of a 917 engined 2CV? Perhaps I dreamed this

[917historian]

You might know the answer Andy...have I seen a model of a 917 engined 2CV? Perhaps I dreamed this

Mike, Model was made by Vroom Models of France. Painted white with Martini Decals

[mfd]

Mike, Model was made by Vroom Models of France. Painted white with Martini Decals

Thanks Mike, but not a real car ?

Edited by mfd, 11 June 2009 - 22:27.

[917historian]

Thanks Mike, but not a real car ?

Not a real car, tbut the model did look good.

[racefun]

Interesting Find on www.forum-auto.com

From LeMans 1970. David Piper raced 917-021

Is it -010 or -021. All the paintwork etc makes it -010 but the cockpit mirror never appeared on -010. Is the car in the background between the crowd -021!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just got a picture from a swedish friend, showing #010 from the race inSweden 1970, it got no. 3 and a mirror on the roof
also got one from the AAW / martini car purple/green with no 10 also with mirror but open backend

sorry not allowed to show them, therefore you only see a spot of them

[917historian]

I just got a picture from a swedish friend, showing #010 from the race inSweden 1970, it got no. 3 and a mirror on the roof
also got one from the AAW / martini car purple/green with no 10 also with mirror but open backend

sorry not allowed to show them, therefore you only see a spot of them

The #3 Piper car (917.010) is from the Swedish Grand Prix (Karlskpga) which was run on the 9th August 1970. David Piper fiished 6th.

The #10 AAW car (917-021(012)) was also from the Swedish Grand Prix. Gijs van Lennep finished 4th. This was the last race for the chassis in these cololours. It was acually loaned from AAW and entered by Hans Dieter Dechent' Martini racing Team in this event.

[racefun]

I am not shure that it is correct, I have i my hand the official starting list from the race
Class IV, Sportcars up to 5000 cc and prototypes up to 3000 cc. (32 laps = 96 km)
the winner was Chris Craft in a McLaren M 8 C, start no 1
2. was Hans D. Dechent in a Porsche 908 start no. 11
3. was Jo Bonnier in a Lola start no. 14

and at no. 10 are written: Racing team AAW, Driver Gijs van Lennep, Holland
Martini racing was no. 11 and 12 with the 908's (12 is Gerard Larrousse, France)

but i only have this list and a little movie from the race sadly not so much 917, more from the other classes

[byrkus]

It was 40 years ago today, when Porsche 917 scored its first WC race win at Österreichring...

[917historian]

It was 40 years ago today, when Porsche 917 scored its first WC race win at Österreichring...

Well remembered. Not only its 1st WC Race. Its 1st win ever.

Who would have thought 40 years on, its stll one of the greatest race cars of all time if not the greatest

[917-10]

Well remembered. Not only its 1st WC Race. Its 1st win ever.

Who would have thought 40 years on, its stll one of the greatest race cars of all time if not the greatest

hi mike you are right like always.
LGO

[917-10]

Does anybody know this. The Austrian 917 n° 23 at Le Mans scrutening have the same ramp between tails then the AAW car. Sorry for my english, I'm french.

I think it was a modifikation. but i know for sure the guy standing behind the car with the glasses, its KAEFER (BEETEL in German), he was one of the austrian team mechaniks in le mans. he lives in zell am see now near the porsche villa.

[sherer]

It was 40 years ago today, when Porsche 917 scored its first WC race win at Österreichring...

wow didn't know that. Def my fav car of call time. I always thought if they made it with carbon fibre and updated it a bit in the wind tunnel it would still be a great race car today.

Now to hope I win the euro millions and can get my hands on one

[Phigr7]

Well remembered. Not only its 1st WC Race. Its 1st win ever.

Not the first face, it was Spa, in early may

[mfd]

Well remembered. Not only its 1st WC Race. Its 1st win ever.

Senior moment Mike?

[racefun]

anybody have some pictures from the jw cars from watkins glen where they race with no. 91-92-93
I also need better pics from the Norisring car 1970 with no. 8 (yellow and white) the pictures from the Norisring website is all in bad colours and only from the left site.

[917historian]

anybody have some pictures from the jw cars from watkins glen where they race with no. 91-92-93
I also need better pics from the Norisring car 1970 with no. 8 (yellow and white) the pictures from the Norisring website is all in bad colours and only from the left site.

Hope these help.

Photo's from Watkins Glen Practise


Copyright : Not known


Copyright : Not known

Photo's from The race


Copyright : Not known


Copyright : Not known


Copyright : Not known


Copyright : Not known

Regards, Mike

Edited by 917historian, 26 October 2009 - 21:03.

[917historian]

Photos from the Norisring. Chassis 917-021 (012)


Copyright: Not Known


Copyright: Not Known


Copyright: Not Known


Copyright: Not Known

Mike

[racefun]

Thanks you 917Historian

The JW cars are great, only seen one of them before, the Norisring pictures are all on the website from Norisring so i have them allready.

This is why i need documentation:



a 1/24 slotcar, built from a fujimi kit, homemade decals
but having problems with one just beind the door, can't see what it is.

Edited by racefun, 26 October 2009 - 22:59.

[mfd]

having problems with one just beind the door, can't see what it is.

You could try asking Andy Dolermo - he put the one you're looking for on his model of the car
http://www.dvamodels...efs/D-0403b.htm

[Pedro 917]

It's a team AAW sticker :

[racefun]

Hi Luc
Merci, it seems that there is a lot more white on the right side, the car must have been heavyer damage in the right side than in the left.
sure I could use more photo from the right side

[adminj]

Here´s one of my latest photos of the Norisring 1970. It will be part of the next update of the Norisringhistorie.
Copyright: Ulrich Benedickt (thank you, Ulrich!).



Jürgen

[markpde]

Photos from the Norisring. Chassis 917-021 (012)

Mike

You know about this, Mike, as will most of the other 917 'regulars', but here's where 917-021 (012) is at now:

From:

To:

Then finally: (audio disabled by WMG! )

23 videos altogether - for those who haven't, watch them all the way through - incredible stuff!

The restored 917 would make an interesting model for racefun, andy & co. Embarrassed to mention this, though - makes me a certified anorak, as if I wasn't already - but I think the restoration has one (inner) NACA duct too many on either side of the tail. AFAIK these NACA ducts were only on the Gulf 917s in '71 after the supports for the roll-over bar scuppered their original placement just behind the cockpit, although a 'compromise' solution was used at Daytona, the NACA duct being moulded around the roll-over bar. I need to get out more. Still an awesome restoration though.

Btw, what's the other 917 in the background in the early videos? I think I read somewhere that Ottokar Jacobs (who sent Kevin one of the hats) has reason to believe it's a Langheck (Long-tail)...

[mfd]

I think the restoration has one (inner) NACA duct too many on either side of the tail. AFAIK these NACA ducts were only on the Gulf 917s in '71

Well spotted Mark Why would they change the tail to the earlier one & include the extra NACA ducts?

Btw, what's the other 917 in the background in the early videos?

Wouldn't we like to know I wouldn't be surprised if a 1969 version is being created, as none exist - I imagine if someone (like Piper) took his car back to 69 spec. it would be a show stopper?

Have you noticed how the yellow one is finished with more decals than it raced with at LM? I believe they've followed the staged set pit shots from the film

Edited by mfd, 30 October 2009 - 17:28.

[Pedro 917]

Well, the Christian Zugel 917, restored by Gunnar racing, is the 917 from Peter Kraus' Bianco Rosso museum (with tail fins as in the Gunnar movies). After the museum closed, it was sold to Mr. Louwman from Holland (Toyota importer) and offered for sale. When someone I know (well informed about 917 chassis numbers) was invited to check out the Louwman 917, it carried chassis plate 010 !!!
He told Louwman that his car couldn't be 010 as that number belongs to David Piper's 917. Next visit, the chassis plate was removed and the car offered for sale at a lower price...
Then Zugel bought the car and sent it to Gunnar for restoration. Now they claim it is the original chassis 021 that was crashed at Le Mans by Piper in 1970 :
In 1970, 021 (the AAW yellow with red sills 917) ran at Monza, Spa and was withdrawn from the Nürburgring 1.000kms due to Hans Laine’s fatal crash (in the AAW 908/2). Then 021 was crashed in the 1970 Le Mans race, first by Piper, then by van Lennep who’d suffered a puncture due to bad repairing Piper's shunt resulting in severe nose damage. However, the AAW owner ( Antti Aarnio Wihuri) had entered the 917 at the Norisring Interserie race 2 weeks later and he wanted his car to race there. So, Porsche took chassis 012 (stored after Kurt Ahrens crashed it at Daytona - late 1969 tests - rear damaged) and used it to repair 021. The 021 chassis plate was mounted on the 012 chassis. The damaged 021 chassis was later used to construct the AAW 917 spyder numbered 01-021 and raced in 1971 by Kinnunen in the Interserie Championship. Now Zugel / Gunnar claims that his 917 is the original 021…. Of course they can’t prove it (they say they found traces of yellow and red when scraping of the paint but the car was painted yellow and red by Kraus when it was on display in the Bianco Rosso museum and before he painted it white… What we know for sure is that the Zugel / Gunnar 917 had its first outing in the 1971 Kyalami 9H driven by Casoni and Adamowicz (white and red livery - Lucky Strike - finished 4th). Adamowicz says on his website : “This was not the same chassis I drove at Monza or Watkins Glen. The first race for this car was here at Kyalami. The new car was put together (by David Piper Racing) out of parts bins and had not turned a wheel on a circuit until I got into the car. I'm not certain it even had a chassis number”. In 1972, it was raced by Chris Craft in some Interserie races (in Piper green), then stored and later sold to Peter Norman (UK). In 1980, the car was used as a template to build parts for the Kremer Porsche 917K81, then returned to Norman. In 1981, it was raced by Derek Bell at Silverstone (silver livery) and later, it was sold to Peter Kraus who repainted it yellow with red sills and displayed at his Bianco Rosso museum. In the nineties, it was painted white.

After the 1970 Norisring Interserie race (van Lennep, 2nd), chassis 012, now renumbered 021, was repainted in psychedelic purple & green then yellow & red colors and raced for AAW and Martini Racing and ended its racing career at Kyalami where Siffert and Ahrens finished 2nd in the 9H race. Then, the engine and some mechanical parts were used to build the spyder chassis 01-021 (see before) and the chassis stored at Freisinger in Germany, then sold to Joachim Grossmann who rebuilt it for road going purposes in 1975 (still in 1970 Kyalami 9H livery). Grossmann had to buy a turbo charged 917 engine for his car which was adapted so it fitted in his chassis. He drove some 10.000 km with it before selling it to Gerry Sutterfield in 1983. Sutterfield then sold it to Don Marsh who in turn sold it to Bobby Rahal in 2002. Juan Barazi bought it from Rahal in 2003 and raced it hard in the Le Mans Classic series (1970 purple & green psychedelic livery). It was also seen at the Goodwood Festival. The car is now in Belgian hands and being completely restored to race again in 2010.

In a Dutch Porsche magazine, Gunnar now speaks of chassis 021a and chassis 021b....
My guess is that their only goal is to get a better price for the car when they want to sell it and so they created a complete new history for the car.

[mfd]

My guess is that their only goal is to get a better price for the car when they want to sell it and so they created a complete new history for the car.

What a great explanation Apart from the new history, I'd suggest there will have been a big invoice too.

Edited by mfd, 01 November 2009 - 23:13.

[LOLE]

I'm convinced the Gunnar Racing 917 started his "carreer" as a replica of the real 021 (24 Hrs Le Mans), specially set up by David Piper for the film "Le Mans). Search for the (min 10) differences on the pictures below...

[mfd]

I'm convinced the Gunnar Racing 917 started his "carreer" as a replica of the real 021 (24 Hrs Le Mans), specially set up by David Piper for the film "Le Mans). Search for the (min 10) differences on the pictures below...

Mirror on roof, number 8, SEV Marchal, Trico, Shell square decal on side sill too big, but now it gets harder

[LOLE]

Don't give up mfd!!!

[Doug Nye]

The interior of the Kaus/Louwman car was staggeringly 'real' - very old, used and aged - dusted with the most wonderful and effectively unfakeable patina. It had that distinctive periscope mirror on the roof centreline. I am pretty sure I recall it being finished in red and yellow Shell sponsorship livery when in Peter Norman's ownership immediately post-Pipes.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 10 November 2009 - 19:51.

[mfd]

Don't give up mfd!!!

OK I thought some of the others might like a go
White Shell decal on side of rear deck larger, AAW decal, Goodyear on side of nose, Sandeman slightly out of position, Borg & Beck, red tape around headlights.
The axle splines look different too...

[proviz]

...also the tail section is wider in the b/w photo.

[rhegra]

..the angle of no 18 on the right rear, missing light there...

[LOLE]

We had a meeting with Mr Jürgen BARTH, yesterday near the Spa-Francorchamps track.
He told us that the Gunnar Racing 917 (see You Tube films on the restoration) is definitely a replica, made by David Piper…
He was present at the Monterey meeting a few weeks ago and told Kevin Jeanette, Mr Zügel (the owner), Gijs van Lennep and David Piper that the car was a fake without a chassis number.
Although David Piper seemed to have a bad memory concerning the origin of the car, all the others are now aware of the real history of their so called “917-021”….
The real chassis 021 (012) is now in the hands of its new owner, the Belgian Vincent Gaye, who will race the car during Classic events next year.
A very detailed book on the history of the car and its restoration will be published during the roll out of the car.
Mr BARTH was a witness during the selling of the car from Mr Freisinger to Mr Grossman in 1975. During our 18 months research we talked to several engineers, owners and drivers (Walter NÄHER, Freisinger, Grossman, Sutterfield, AAW team, Hans-Dieter Dechent, Larrousse, Ahrens, van Lennep, Barth, Gustav Nietsche…). The book will prove the authenticity of the 917-021 (012) through several witnesses, documents and photographs and not only through the sanding of the bodywork.
The Gunnar Racing 917 was also checked on colour layers prior to its selling to Mr Zügel and the findings were different to those discovered by Gunnar Racing (remember the golden rondel on the nose cover? To Kevin Jeanette, this was the proof of its participation at the 1970 Kyalami 9 Hrs race…If you look at the pictures of the two 917 cars who raced in South Africa (Lucky Strike livery), one can easily conclude that there was no golden rondel at all on any of the nose covers. Strange isn’t it?)
So, Kevin Jeanette has no proof at all (except his bodywork scraping) to confirm the cars’ origin. He now knows that all his films on YouTube are a big mistake…

[mfd]

...1970 Kyalami 9 Hrs race…the two 917 cars raced in South Africa (Lucky Strike livery)

Do you mean 1971 Carlos? Thanks for posting your news...I believe when the same car first arrived at Rosso Bianco, it had 010 on the plate
I look forward to the book, what language(s) ?

[LOLE]

Sorry mfd, it is of course 1971! In 1970 Kurt Ahrens shared 917-021 with Jo Siffert. It is also correct that the Rosso-Bianco car had a 010 chassis number plate. It was removed by the Dutch owner after a remark by a visitor, telling him that "010" was David Piper's car.
A person, very close to David Piper told me during this years' Festival of Speed, that Mr Piper constructed some 3 or 4 917-chassis on his own during the Seventies.
Jürgen Barth, during a visit to David Pipers garage, spotted two 917 chassis, pending on the roof...
I think the book will be in french and English possibly german too.

[markpde]

OMGZ, what did I start?!!! Just incredible how knowledgeable the folk on TNF are, though.

Re. LOLE's photos of the Sandeman 917 at Le Mans and in the movie, I believe 917.024 - the 'lost' 917 which took part in the Le Mans trials in 1970 (I think - not sure any more! ) (see Doug Nye's photos in the '917 with snorkels' thread), crossed the line first at the end of the Le Mans movie after being a bit player throughout (I think), followed the hearse at Seppi's funeral (I think) - it was like the 'Zelig' of 917s - then was lost, only to resurface in recent years, appeared as the Sandeman car at some point in the movie (I think)... So could the second photo be 024? There's another thread somewhere on TNF - 'Lost Porsche 917' - which tells its story. I suppose if we compare Doug's photos of the 917 at the Le Mans trials (if indeed it was 024) with the second photo...

I'll never be sure about anything again!

[mfd]

OMGZ, what did I start?!!! Just incredible how knowledgeable the folk on TNF are, though.

Re. LOLE's photos of the Sandeman 917 at Le Mans and in the movie, I believe 917.024 - the 'lost' 917 which took part in the Le Mans trials in 1970 (I think - not sure any more! ) (see Doug Nye's photos in the '917 with snorkels' thread), crossed the line first at the end of the Le Mans movie after being a bit player throughout (I think), followed the hearse at Seppi's funeral (I think) - it was like the 'Zelig' of 917s - then was lost, only to resurface in recent years, appeared as the Sandeman car at some point in the movie (I think)... So could the second photo be 024? There's another thread somewhere on TNF - 'Lost Porsche 917' - which tells its story. I suppose if we compare Doug's photos of the 917 at the Le Mans trials (if indeed it was 024) with the second photo...

I'll never be sure about anything again!

Hello Mark I don't follow your reasoning for this? I haven't looked at the time line for this, but my assumption was the "film" version of the Sandeman was Piper's car 010. I know 010 appears early in the paddock cameo in red, but given the duration of filming & the amount of money being dispensed, it seems logical to me this would happen (given the red car couldn't feature in the film, as it didn't take part) rather than repaint a Gulf coloured car already with a big part to play...

[Doug Nye]

Sorry mfd, it is of course 1971! In 1970 Kurt Ahrens shared 917-021 with Jo Siffert. It is also correct that the Rosso-Bianco car had a 010 chassis number plate. It was removed by the Dutch owner after a remark by a visitor, telling him that "010" was David Piper's car.

I think I know who that "visitor" was...

DCN

[LOLE]

There's no secret about this Mr Nye, it was Belgian driver Hervé REGOUT, a friend of the actual owner of Porsche 917-021. He visited Mr Louwman a month or so before the actual owner went to Holland to look at the car. Mr Louwman told the latter that the car didn't have a chassis number and therefor sold at 60 percent of the actual value of a 917...The whole story, with some remarkable and stunning details will be told in the 917-021 book.

[markpde]

Hello Mark I don't follow your reasoning for this? I haven't looked at the time line for this, but my assumption was the "film" version of the Sandeman was Piper's car 010. I know 010 appears early in the paddock cameo in red, but given the duration of filming & the amount of money being dispensed, it seems logical to me this would happen (given the red car couldn't feature in the film, as it didn't take part) rather than repaint a Gulf coloured car already with a big part to play...

Mike – sorry I’ve not been replying. Lost my internet connection a while ago so having to use the computer in the local library – pain!

The info was from this excellent website (I believe it's run by Franco Varani and Ronnie Spain):

http://chassis.ultimosystems.com/

I found the website when we were discussing 917.024 in the ‘Lost Porsche 917’ thread. They tried to keep the website free to access but couldn’t sustain it financially without a ‘password protect’ system which requires a donation. Trust me, it’s worth it, and it’s a worthy cause – they’ve put an awful lot of work into it.

917.024 belonged to Jo Siffert. According to the chassishistories site, it first appeared as the Sandeman car, then finished the movie as JW Gulf #22 – the eventual ‘winner’. Don’t know where they get their info from, but they appear to know. At the beginning of the movie, #22 was ‘played’ by Steve McQueen’s 917.022, which had been built up to full JW Gulf spec. It therefore has the NACA cockpit air intake and outlet in the roof and the NACA ducts behind the cockpit. If you watch the first lap in the movie, as #22 exits Arnage it puts its tail well out and you can see the NACA duct behind the passenger window. By the end of the movie the NACA ducts are not there – 917.022 had become #20, then ended the movie as #21 after 013 was wrecked in the crash which caused ‘Pipes’ to lose part of a leg – #22 is ‘played’ by 024, which lacked the NACA ducts fore and aft of the cockpit but had an ‘outlet’ in its roof (but no inlet!). The roof outlet wasn't on the Sandeman 917 but could have been added later, of course - it's obviously just a prop on 024. Still no actual proof that 024 was the Sandeman car, though - it would be more logical for it to have been 010 - so the jury's still out! Anyone else able to elaborate?

Here's a photo of 024 (by the end of the movie) with the rest of the cars Seppi supplied for the movie (sorry, copyright unknown):

[917historian]

Its been great to read all the debate with regards to 917-021 and its correct provinence. Now to add a little bit of spice. I have just purchased the Porsche Museum's book on the 917 - Porsche 917 Archiv by Walter Naher. The book covers all the chassis histories from 1969 to 1975 and race results / owners. There are 575 pages and some superb period photos especially from the testing that was carried out at Weissach. Did anyone know that Porsche tested the 917/10 with 4 rear wheels (very similiar to the Ferrari 312T2 that was tested 4 years later). Or that the Nose assembly from the #18 Porsche 917LH (917-043) was grafted onto 917/10-001 in August 1971.

A book thats recommend for all Porsche 917 'nuts' The book is not cheap @ £50 and is only in German. Will try and scan some photos later.

Regards,

Mike

[mfd]

A book thats recommend for all Porsche 917 'nuts' The book is not cheap @ £50 and is only in German. Will try and scan some photos later.

I look forward to your insight into another 917 book

[markpde]

Did anyone know that Porsche tested the 917/10 with 4 rear wheels (very similiar to the Ferrari 312T2 that was tested 4 years later)?

Mike

There’s mention of that in Norbert Singer’s autobiography, ’24:16’, but no photos – they actually welded two 11-inch front wheels together, with the tyres already installed, to make the equivalent of one 22-inch rear wheel. They were quicker around the skid-pan than the 19-inch rear wheels, but I don’t think Porsche could justify having 22-inch wheels and tyres manufactured. Also, Norbert Singer said they were running out of space to fit the suspension!

Or that the Nose assembly from the #18 Porsche 917LH (917-043) was grafted onto 917/10-001 in August 1971?

I’ve wondered about that for years, Mike! You can see the impression of the headlight covers in this photo of the 917/10 ‘mule’. Also, only the centre section, where the panel was, is concave, whereas on subsequent versions (as fitted to the ’72 normally aspirated 917/10s), the entire width of the nose is concave.



Sad fact is, if it was the actual nose section that was grafted on to 917/10 001 and not just taken from a mould, it also explains why 917LH 043 was scrapped. I suppose Porsche saw it as being dispensable – they still had 042 and 045, with nowhere left to race them. What a waste, though – what would it be worth now (and not just in financial terms)?!

[Verbal]

Sorry to dig out this thread from its grave, but I think it fits here even though I'm late to the party...

 

I've just received a copy of "Porsche 917-021: the fabulous story" and I think the book does a very fine job of establishing the car's history, so there doesn't seem to be any doubt about that one .

The Piper/Gunnar/Zügel 917 is a much more confusing issue to me, however. Jeanette claims it to be the original #21 frame that hadn't been scrapped but ended up with Piper instead ( http://www.early911s...ll=1#post582840 ), Barth is reported to say it's a replica w/o number ( http://forums.autosp...-4#entry3972285 ) and Näher finally somewhat ominously writes in his book that circumstances of a sale (of the original #21 frame) to David Piper could no longer be reconstructed (but then goes on to list the Piper "21"'s post Kyalami '71 race record in the #12 section).

Has there been any more light shed on this in the meantime?

Edited by Verbal, 29 September 2016 - 11:54.