42 replies to this topic

[kayemod]

I'll start with an apology, I'm sure all this information is already on TNF somewhere, but I spent ages trying to find it, and eventually gave up. How many Ferrari 250 GTO's survive, and are there any dubious one around, as is the case with Lister Jaguars? There's an interesting article in the Telegraph today, by Chris Evans no less, he who was misguided enough to pay a quite ludicrous amount earlier this year for a relatively mundane Ferrari California, 'once owned by a minor American film star' apparently, though I can't see why that would add anything much to the value. How many real one survive out of the 39 built?

http://www.telegraph...ing-on-red.html

Interesting mention of a new edition of Nick Mason's excellent book at the end of the article, to be published at the end of this year. I can see that I might have to end up having a second copy on the shelf.

[David McKinney]

As far as I know, they all survive - including the GTO/64 models
And there must be literally scores of replicas, some indistinguishable from the originals

[teegeefla]

This has been dsicussed several times on FerrariChat. Here is one thread to get you started.

http://www.ferrarich...read.php?t=7174

[kayemod]

Quote

Originally posted by teegeefla
This has been dsicussed several times on FerrariChat. Here is one thread to get you started.

http://www.ferrarich...read.php?t=7174

Thanks a lot teegeefla, very interesting indeed. Exactly what I was looking for, but couldn't find, on TNF.

[bradbury west]

I did not realise you could buy a GTO in '61, see Evans article. I understood SCM did a lot of the development on the evolution of the 250 GT for 1962, there is a book on it somewhere ISTR.
Roger Lund

[John Brundage]

One of my favorite cars. Beautiful to see, wonderful to hear, and fun to drive. (and sadly I will never have one in my garage)

[klemcoll]

The above is still not quite correct, and the Ferrari Chat stuff is also a bit off.

Today there are 38 Ferrari GTOs existing and, according to the Factory, none was ever destroyed. Most of the cars were built in 1962-63. However, of these 38 there are 3 cars which were new builds in 1964 with the 1964 specs and bodywork (series 2). In addition, four cars of the original series 1 type were upgraded to the 64 specifications which included changes to chassis, engine, suspension and of course the bodywork. Therefore, today there are 31 series 1 cars and 7 series two cars. Of the series 1 cars, there are two which were built with four liter motors which, counting both series, leaves 36 original 250GTOs. One of the four liter cars had a three liter motor out of a 250P fitted in period (so as not to have to run as a prototype), but the present owner has built up a new four liter unit as well. The other four liter car was built for Michel Paul-Cavalier, a director of Ferrari, and was only really used on the road. One of the other 250GTO series 1 cars has a Pininfarina LMB-like body built for Le Mans but is otherwise a normal series 1 car. All other bodies were built by Scaglietti.

Of course a number of fake GTO series 1 cars have been built over the years. Some used shortened 250GT or 330GT chassis with three or four liter motors and some have used newly-built chassis. They are all replicas, but some of them look in all respects very much like the real thing. Caveat emptor!

There was a special 400SA car built in 1962 with a four liter motor and a 250SWB-like alloy body (n. 3673SA). For many years it had been surmised that this car had once been, or had used parts from, a third four liter GTO which had been wrecked in testing. The Factory now says that such is incorrect, that no third four liter car existed, and that 3673SA was built to special order as a road car and was never anything else. Unfortunately, in the last 20 years it has gone though various indignities to try to make it like a four liter GTO but hopefully it will be put right again someday.

There were also four 330LMB cars built by Ferrari in 1963, three for racing and one for the road. They are very fast and sexy looking, but they are not GTOs. Finally, several 250SWBs got various body and mechanical modifications in period to try to make them competitive with the GTOs, the most famous being the "Breadvan" built by Bizzarrini for Count Volpi.

That is where it stands until and unless new information comes to the surface.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Quote

Originally posted by John Brundage
One of my favorite cars. Beautiful to see, wonderful to hear, and fun to drive. (and sadly I will never have one in my garage)

Neither will I, but God knows I deserve one!

Jack

[John Brundage]

I was able to take my oldest son, now 15, for a short ride in a GTO about 5 years ago. He was too young to enjoy it and couldn't understand why I was excited. When he gets older, I think he will understand.....

A good book is Ferrari 250 GTO by Keith Bluemel, published by Bay View books in the UK in 1998.

[hhh]

Quote

Originally posted by klemcoll
The above is still not quite correct, and the Ferrari Chat stuff is also a bit off.

Today there are 38 Ferrari GTOs existing and, according to the Factory, none was ever destroyed. Most of the cars were built in 1962-63. However, of these 38 there are 3 cars which were new builds in 1964 with the 1964 specs and bodywork (series 2). In addition, four cars of the original series 1 type were upgraded to the 64 specifications which included changes to chassis, engine, suspension and of course the bodywork. Therefore, today there are 31 series 1 cars and 7 series two cars. Of the series 1 cars, there are two which were built with four liter motors which, counting both series, leaves 36 original 250GTOs. One of the four liter cars had a three liter motor out of a 250P fitted in period (so as not to have to run as a prototype), but the present owner has built up a new four liter unit as well. The other four liter car was built for Michel Paul-Cavalier, a director of Ferrari, and was only really used on the road. One of the other 250GTO series 1 cars has a Pininfarina LMB-like body built for Le Mans but is otherwise a normal series 1 car. All other bodies were built by Scaglietti.

Of course a number of fake GTO series 1 cars have been built over the years. Some used shortened 250GT or 330GT chassis with three or four liter motors and some have used newly-built chassis. They are all replicas, but some of them look in all respects very much like the real thing. Caveat emptor!

There was a special 400SA car built in 1962 with a four liter motor and a 250SWB-like alloy body (n. 3673SA). For many years it had been surmised that this car had once been, or had used parts from, a third four liter GTO which had been wrecked in testing. The Factory now says that such is incorrect, that no third four liter car existed, and that 3673SA was built to special order as a road car and was never anything else. Unfortunately, in the last 20 years it has gone though various indignities to try to make it like a four liter GTO but hopefully it will be put right again someday.

There were also four 330LMB cars built by Ferrari in 1963, three for racing and one for the road. They are very fast and sexy looking, but they are not GTOs. Finally, several 250SWBs got various body and mechanical modifications in period to try to make them competitive with the GTOs, the most famous being the "Breadvan" built by Bizzarrini for Count Volpi.

That is where it stands until and unless new information comes to the surface.

Looks like you know about GTO's, especially '64's I guess.............................

[kayemod]

Quote

Originally posted by klemcoll
The above is still not quite correct, and the Ferrari Chat stuff is also a bit off.

Today there are 38 Ferrari GTOs existing and, according to the Factory, none was ever destroyed...

That is where it stands until and unless new information comes to the surface.

Thanks a lot klemcoll, very informative. I'm not exactly a 250GTO expert, though the car has always been one of my all time favourites for all kinds of reasons, my closest encounter was sitting in Nick Mason's example at Goodwood a couple of years ago. Odd site that ferrarichat one, some excellent information there, as well as a lot of stuff from posters who seem to know less about the cars than I do, but it was fairly easy to sort out the gems from the dross. Going back to my original Lister Jaguar comparison, have there been serious attempts to pass off less than 100% genuine examples as the real thing, or are the cars just too rare, too well documented and too valuable for anyone to be able to stand much chance of getting away with this?

[RA Historian]

Quote

Originally posted by kayemod
or are the cars just too rare, too well documented and too valuable for anyone to be able to stand much chance of getting away with this?

I believe that you are right. The rarer the car, the harder to palm off a fake.

Reminds me of the time a number of years ago when I was cruising the Road America paddock, and came upon a bunch of people burning film like crazy over a Ferrari GTO. Looked very good, nice, red, right lines, etc. The hood was ajar just a little bit, so I lifted it to see the engine. Yep, a Datsun straight six! Told the folks with the cameras that they were photographing a fake and watched them all put their cameras away having wasted an untold number of exposures and they silently filed away.....

Tom

[Kingsleyrob]

Quote

Originally posted by RA Historian
I believe that you are right. The rarer the car, the harder to palm off a fake.

Reminds me of the time a number of years ago when I was cruising the Road America paddock, and came upon a bunch of people burning film like crazy over a Ferrari GTO. Looked very good, nice, red, right lines, etc. The hood was ajar just a little bit, so I lifted it to see the engine. Yep, a Datsun straight six! Told the folks with the cameras that they were photographing a fake and watched them all put their cameras away having wasted an untold number of exposures and they silently filed away.....

Tom

Reminds me of a recent conversation I had with a prominent TNFer recently (protocol requires me to be discreet), who is an expert on a particular marque and model....

'How many were built?' I asked.

'Eight', he replied.

"And how many are there still around today?' was my obvious follow up question.

'Nine' he replied, with a wry smile.

Rob

[bradbury west]

Quote

[i]Originally posted by Kingsleyrob "And how many are there still around today?' was my obvious follow up question.
'Nine' he replied, with a wry smile.
Rob ]

Sure it is not 16?
Roger Lund

[hipperson]

When I used to sprint my GT40/1005 at Duxford there was normally only me and this car in the big engined class.......photo circa 1972



A C 'Jack' Le Fort had this unbelievably beautiful 64 GTO.
With it at this lowly sprint came two white overalled mechanics making sure it was spotless. They were even shiny blacking the tyres before each run ! My Ford used as an everyday road car was always filthy and a pain to drive on this tight little course having the tendancy to lock the rear wheels when changing down to second gear. On the other hand maybe it was the driver.

I believe Jack's car to be 3413/GT....?

Thank you Klemcoll for clearing some GTO haze.

[klemcoll]

That is indeed the chassis number. This car is now owned by a collector in the Seattle, Washington USA area.

[David M. Kane]

Would that be Jon Shirley? Here in Scottsdale there is one own by Harley Cluxton III. He said he bought it in 1995.

[Paul Parker]

Those J. A. Pearce wheels on 3413 look gross (in my opinion) and the rear ride height seems to be set up for rallycross!

Incidentally this GTO has the 'longer' LM style roofline unless I'm mistaken and note the quick lift jack brackets underneath.

[Doug Nye]

The question of how many GTOs 'survive' is a question whose answer requires some fine definition.

For example 3851 GT was bent amidships by its collision with the trackside building at Montlhery which saw poor Henri Oreiller killed by the gearstick late in 1962.

'The car' was later sold in 'repaired 'form to Paolo Colombo for 1963, but from photographs showing the Montlhery wreck that was quite some rebuild, because in planform the crashed car was bent from the A-pillars forward through about 20-30 degrees - which doesn't bode too well for a chassis-straightening exercise...as opposed to a chassis replacement exercise. So what then constitutes 'the car'?

So the question then becomes are we talking here of a 3851 GT dating from the Tour de France 1962 merely to the Coupes du Salon, Montlhery, 1962 as Oreiller's mount...and then what might well be judged to be a different 3851 GT forming the repair/replacement (? but which?) for Colombo in 1963...

Mind you - this is very academic stuff, since if Ferrari Classiche replace the entire car today down to the last split-pin and lock washer, it would be guaranteed to emerge from their shop with a Certificate declaring it to be unchallengeably 'original'. It emerges from conversation with them that they fail to see any difference between 'original' as used in the motor industry sense of 'Original Spare Part' and 'original' as used as an assesment of historical truth.

DCN

[Peter Morley]

Quote

Originally posted by Doug Nye

Mind you - this is very academic stuff, since if Ferrari Classiche replace the entire car today down to the last split-pin and lock washer, it would be guaranteed to emerge from their shop with a Certificate declaring it to be unchallengeably 'original'. It emerges from conversation with them that they fail to see any difference between 'original' as used in the motor industry sense of 'Original Spare Part' and 'original' as used as an assesment of historical truth.

DCN

Presumably if (heaven forbid) someone other than Ferrari Classiche were to do something similar (as unlikely as that is) they would give such a car an originality certificate as well?

Failing to do so could be of interest to a monopolies investigating Commission.

[hipperson]

Here are three shaps I took at an FOS meet near Higham Ferrers in circa 1979.
This I believe to be Don Nelson's GTO but I may be corrected on this.
Is that Don talking to SWB owner Vic Norman(?)
I believe Paul Vestey has this car now ?

I was in my 'lowly' Dino 246GTS so never ventured to talk to the SWB/GTO brigade.
The Daytona I think was Nick Lancasters. It broke down on the way home.



From this pub we went to Richard Colton's house nearby and looked at his collection...quite an eye opener for an Essex farmboy like me.
If needed ...to help any 'person' ID I can put the photos up much bigger

[Paul Parker]

Great pics Michael and your father really should have bought that GTO from Brian Classic, methinks I'll invent a time machine!

[hipperson]

Right there....!

Dad and I went up to see Brian Classic in 1971 to attempt to buy a 62 GTO....we had never been that far North before so it was quite an adventure in my mum's Sunbeam Tiger (fitted with Pearce wheels Paul)
The GTO was stunning and I was desperate for Dad to buy it....but at £6250 it was quite dear.
After much deliberation Dad announced that he was not paying that kind of money for a 'wop' car

Obviously disappointed I put Plan B into operation. Off to see Julian Seddon in London and came back with GT40/1005. Very expensive also at £4,600.

[hipperson]

This car was on the Ronnuie Hoare stand at Goodwood. One I had not seen before ..any idea of number or owner.

Must be real surely !

[starlet]

Don Nelson's GTO indeed, 3527 GT, now with Irvine Laidlaw, still wearing "6 GTO" plate.
Sir Paul Vestey has 4115 GT.

As for the car at Goodwood, not a GTO, but a rebodied 250 GTE c/n 3781 GT...

[hipperson]

How disappointing the Revival car was a fake

I would have thought his Lordship could have conjured up the real thing.

[Paul Parker]

My apologies if my comments about J. A. Pearce wheels caused offence Michael.

I was talking relative aesthetics. What I should have stated was that these were not (in my opinion) suitable attire for a GTO, or the big fat tyres but obviously these were modern wear for the time. They would of course look fine on a Tiger or indeed as they were in several cases on mod sports E types in period (Brian Spicer's car used them I seem to remember).

Meanwhile if you want to spot a 'fake' GTO I think you will find that most of them have a very slightly incorrect windscreen shape/curvature on the lower edge and sometimes roofline, the screen seem to sit too high in relation to the scuttle.

Finally I remember Vic Norman in the late 1960s when he had a white coilspring Cobra around the Epping, Loughton, Chigwell area and how very envious I was!

[simonlewisbooks]

Quote

Originally posted by starlet
Don Nelson's GTO indeed, 3527 GT, now with Irvine Laidlaw, still wearing "6 GTO" plate.

According to a recent TV documentary, partly filmed in Monaco, it seems there might be little chance of '6 GTO' and it's current driver appearing together in any British events in the near future - assuming his correct title is now 'Lord' rather than 'Mr' and it's the same chap... ?

[hipperson]

This is a great shot of 3869GT owned by a family friend Karl Richardson (RIP) from Witham in Essex
Here on Mont Ventoux.
Karl was a good customer of the Ronnie Hoare. !
Ford GT40/1014/ 275GTB/4,Dino 246....all purchased new.After years of badgering I purchased the yellow Dino.



I believe Karl paid circa £2500 which was then sold to David Clark for £4000.









'The event is 'Course de Cote du Mont Ventoux' and was a round of theEuropean Mountain Championship. The photo was taken by:Photo Junior34 Avenue G ClemenceauNice'

[simonlewisbooks]

Quote

Originally posted by hipperson
This is a great shot of 3869GT owned by a family friend Karl Richardson (RIP) from Witham in Essex
Here on Mont Ventoux.

OT question - does this famous corner still exist in the same form? I have seen in-car footage from recent events and didn't notice it, but maybe the current course no longer includes it?

[Red Socks]

Quote

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The question of how many GTOs 'survive' is a question whose answer requires some fine definition.


'The car' was later sold in 'repaired 'form to Paolo Colombo for 1963, but from photographs showing the Montlhery wreck that was quite some rebuild, because in planform the crashed car was bent from the A-pillars forward through about 20-30 degrees - which doesn't bode too well for a chassis-straightening exercise...as opposed to a chassis replacement exercise. So what then constitutes 'the car'?


DCN

So long as the old bent one got thrown away the fact of its replacement either with a factory one or a home built one doesn't matter does it?
The car is what you have-as in ''Do you still have your GTO?. No I sold it to John Smith, '' No I bent it round a tree and it was scrapped''. ''Yes but it caught fire and will need a major rebuild'' Its components are by definition all capable of replacement without the loss of the car but the car is capable of loss at the point where for the owner it no longer exists.
If one had asked E Ferrari in 1965 to purchase a Lancia D50 ,his reply must have been that they were scrapped -but they exist today.They cannot be the car because the owner scrapped them.

[hipperson]

Karl again...another year,another car,another corner...............



This car went onto notoriety with owner Noel Edmunds who disgusted the world when he admitted to driving in the nude.

Copyright as the GTO above.

[Red Socks]

Quote

Originally posted by hipperson
Karl again...another year,another car,another corner...............



This car went onto notoriety with owner Noel Edmunds who disgusted the world when he admitted to driving in the nude.

Copyright as the GTO above.

Antony Hussey, sometime Sales Director of Connoley Brothers would always assure one that with leather seats the only corect way to drive the car was indeed naked-the skin to skin thing-he claimed - was the experience of a lifetime.
I assume that naked in a GT40 the most difficult thing to do would be to see where you are going if you get my drift!

[David Birchall]

"6 GTO" was at Goodwood--it was in that rather tacky 'Earls Court Motor Show' area. It was so shiny that the photo I took of it looked terrible and I deleted it!

[hipperson]

This then...shiny is good !




On the GT40 seats ...the early Mk1s had a sort of oil cloth fabric with lots and lots of coppery rings for ventilation.

This is my car in '72...see the rings

[Tmeranda]

Since in today's market a 62/63 GTO is far more valuable then a '64 series, I wonder how many of the 4 62/63 series that were rebodied as '64 have be re rebodied back to 62/63 specs?

[Paul Parker]

"This car went onto notoriety with owner Noel Edmunds who disgusted the world when he admitted to driving in the nude."

As Michael will recount sitting on the GT40 seats with the ventilation ring holes could be a dodgy business, and I found them uncomfortable enough with thin slacks on in the summer of 1968 when I drove one of Shell advert cars (the blue one, XBH 766F maybe, can't be sure its 40 years ago) on a hot day.

[Paul Parker]

"OT question - does this famous corner still exist in the same form? I have seen in-car footage from recent events and didn't notice it, but maybe the current course no longer includes it?"

I drove down the hill in winter 2004 in a VW Polo and there were no banked corners, but it made the feeble brakes v. hot indeed!

[starlet]

The "Saint Estève" corner was still part of the Mont Ventoux hillclimb, until its last edition in 2007. But it is no longer banked or streaked...

[bradbury west]

I have always found the Chris Harvey book on the GTO in the Super Profile series very useful for a potted history. Published in 1982. The book on SCM's role in the development of the 250GT fro Ferrari for '62, which is what the GTO was, was quite expensive IIRC, perhaps Simon Lewis could give more info.
Roger Lund.

[klemcoll]

Since in today's market a 62/63 GTO is far more valuable then a '64 series, I wonder how many of the 4 62/63 series that were rebodied as '64 have be re rebodied back to 62/63 specs?

The answer is none. The 64 cars should be every bit as valuable, as there are a lot fewer of them and they are faster, too. To rebody backwards would be tantamount to the guy who took a lovely Scaglietti berlinetta TdF-like body (put on the car in 1955) off a Ferrari 250MM to replace it with a replica of the Vignale spyder body it originally had. If you want to make the car worth a lot less…

[Tmeranda]

I've seen figures where a 62/63 GTO is about $2M USD more than a "64. And since the cars started out as a 62/63 then why wrong to rebody it as it once was? Actually making it over as a '64 strikes me a greater fault.

[simonlewisbooks]

Quote

Originally posted by Tmeranda
I've seen figures where a 62/63 GTO is about $2M USD more than a "64.

But how many 64 versions have been sold in recent times? The market in such things goes upwards by large amounts, very quickly (at the moment...)