9 replies to this topic

[carsten.meurer]

hi !

a friend of mine is in process of building a mk1 escy to gr.2 regs for the german run youngtimer series.

now organizers become a bit picky depending on entrant wether certain modifications are eligible or not.

he was asked to provide period proof ( say up to 1975 ), by news article or series regs that allow his
mods.

he wants to run the standart 4-link rear, plus either panhard or watts on a pinto powered 2 litre.
maybe only a one off event by someone having blown his BDA and replacing it for a pinto to keep rolling.
everything is welcome !

does any one of you have information that might help him to push his case ?

thanks in advance !

carsten

graphics@mrcdesign.de

[Frank de Jong]

What you are talking about is a Mk1 RS2000 Escort in Group 2? That's a rare car (a RS1600 was the obvious choice), but in 1976 one ran in Holland (Autoshop Haarlem/Wim van Gelderen); no idea about the rear suspension though.

[carsten.meurer]

hi frank !

yes, with a pinto it would have run on a rs2000 homologation.

apparently opinions vary wether or not appendixJ up to 75 allows four link conversions or not.
any info on rs2000 engined escorts running 4 link would be helpful, even if later on, lets say 1981.

problem is that rs1600/1800 engines cost a fortune, and when the power disadvantage comes in a pack with
suspension disadvantage it starts to become useless...

[RS2000]

Appendix J Gp2 allowed 4 links etc. up to the end of 1975. Those mods were not covered by specific homologation on the cars' papers, they were done under the then Appendix J freedoms. The "works" BDA Escorts had such mods and they were equally applicable to other models.
From 1.1.76. Gp2 changed and "standard configuration" suspension was required (4 links not allowed). Cars to the previous Gp2 were allowed in international rallies for a further 2 years but had to run in the Gp4 category, not Gp2. This allowed cars like the works Kadet GTEs, not just Escorts, to continue in competitive spec. Cars actually runing in Gp2 after 1.1.76. had to comply with the new, more restrictive, Gp2 regs.
When the 2 years were up Ford would have had a problem, resolved when the full works spec BDA car was re-homologated (as a 2 seater sports car) in Gp4 as the "Escort RS" (no such car was ever in production of course). That re-homologation did not apply to the RS2000, which was only ever homologated in Gp1 and Gp2.
Every (or almost every) Escort in the British Historic Rally Championship runs a 4 link rear. The regs for Category 3 (1975-1981) require "homologated spec" (which is not the case for earlier years Cat 1 and Cat 2). They are effectively running to 1975 Gp2 spec rather than 1976-1981 Gp2. The Holbay 16valve twincam head can be used on an RS2000 (it was homologated into Gp2 for the RS2000 in 1974, along with the 5 speed ZF box) and the BHRC allows the modern Warrior head to be used in its place, due to availability (plus this allows a cheaper engine than the BDA and many prefer it because of the better torque, despite the weight).

[RS2000]

This is my old RS2000, which I ran on internationals, including the RAC Rally, "in period" to post-1.1.76. Gp2 spec. It has been run in the BHRC this year by its current owner, in Cat 3 for 1975-1981 cars, totally rebuilt to 1975 Gp2 spec. (It is due to start the "Roger Albert Clark Rally" on Friday - the re-creation of the old RAC Rally, that runs to BHRC regs).

[carsten.meurer]

thanks for the reply rs2000 !

your explenaition about homologation and appendixJ working together is just how i ( and most ) understand it.

sadly some organisers are not too familiar with that it seems...

the youngtimer organisers have now asked my friend for period proof ( magazin articles, photos, no idea whatever they expect ) that cars running like this were in msa / fia sanctioned events.

useless if you read the rules, but how to teach that old dog new tricks... ;-)

16v...

there are rumours, though nobody has seen the paperwork, that one competitor got ok on useing
the cossy 16v head in a mk1 from fia / dmsb to replace the holbay.
that would be strange, as how i learned it breathes the other way round and resembles few
similarities.

i am not familiar with the ' warrior ' head !

can you shed some light for me please ?

thanks
carsten

[RS2000]

The question of "proof" is a cause of a lot of resentment in Cat1(pre-68) and Cat2(68-74) of the BHRC, where the regs (unlike later Cat3) allow anything actually proven to have been used in rallying in period, rather than what was homologated. It simply isn't always possible to "prove" it now, even when it was common knowledge in period what was actually used.
I think the 4 link question is somewhat easier because it is the FIA regs that cover it. The 1975 wording says something like "link bars may be freely added to the suspension". What was very difficult under FIA Appendix J Gp2 was that bodywork modifications within the "habitacle" (passenger compartment) were originally limited to areas that could not be seen (in the case of 4 link boxes on Escorts, hidden by the rear seat). When in 1973 Gp2 first allowed rear seats to be removed, I think there was some sort of "weasel wording" that effectively said areas once hidden and modified could still be be modified even though they were no longer hidden!
I assume you have details of the FIA site and the historical Appendix J listings. (if I recall it correctly, there is a 1976 version of Gp2 shown but there may not be a 1975 (because there were no major changes after 1973 until 1976?).
Your series scrutineer must be aware the works Escorts used 4 links in Gp2 (from 1968 Alpine Rally in Gp6. I'm not sure when first used in Gp2 but it was not long afterwards I'm sure). It should only then be necessary to point out that a Gp2 RS2000 could equally do so under Appendix J?
In the UK, an RS2000 with all the other "works" mods except engine and gearbox was a common club level rally car that could also be used in Gp2 on Interationals like the RAC. In Germany of course, nearly all RS2000s were Gp1 (as were a lot in UK). Obviously, race Gp2 RS2000s were virtually unknown even in the UK - but your series seems to rely on FIA Gp2 regs which applied equally to race and rally.

You might like to look at this link, which is a summary of what is allowed in BHRC. It makles it clear "short" 4 links only are allowed up to 74 and "long" 4 links after that (reading it may also raise other questions, because the BHRC Cat3 regs are supposed to be "homologated spec" only but there are some further freedoms specifically allowed, like lightweight boot and bonet and plastic windows)
http://www.hrct.co.u..._manufacturer=7

For the Warrior head, see:
http://www.connaughtengines.co.uk/
This was a much more modern head, first produced in about 1980 I think. It is a straight fit on a Pinto block, just like a YB Cosworth head. The Holbay head was not too successful and was virtually unknown on an RS2000 in period, despite being homologated.

[carsten.meurer]

lots of valuable info !

thanks for that !

problem is that our ' officials ' sometimes are a hard nut to crack, and common sense or period knowledge does not get thru to them...

i need to repeat myself, trying to find that spark that makes the officials understand the point.

- is a 4 link in itself homologated for the rs 1800, or not ?

if not, the point of 4 link alterations on rs1800 being based on appJ is clear.
sadly the rear axle pic on the rs1800 homosheet seems to show 4 links on the axle.

our series organiser - and the msa technical staff knows even less ! - does not see the appendixJ 75
sufficient for changes to the bodyshell that are needed to install 4 link.

how they want to explain cut aways for wide arches with this point is beyond me...

basically all they say is ' show us period proof ' !
easy enough if you try and get it on headlights, but parts hardly visible if you can walk round the car...


what would solve the case in my friends favour within a moment is something in writing:

may it be a statement from the uk msa that these changes are period under appJ,
may it be a copy of a historic passport of a mk1 rs2000 showing or stating 4 / 5 link.

the series specs are a starting point, but i am sure our dmsb guys will argue its only a current club championship and holds no weight in prooving the historical point.

[RS2000]

There is definitely no separate homologation of 4 link rear on the RS2000 in the papers. Use is permitted via the relevant clause of the pre-1976 Appendix J Gp2. The Mk2 RS2000 bodyshell was homologated as Evolotion on the Mk1 papers on 1.1.76. and the "flat front" Mk2 shell as a regional production variant (Australia) on 1.2.78.
I don't have a copy of the RS1600/1800 papers but, as you will know, the Mk2 RS1800 bodyshell was homologated for 1975 as Evolution of the RS1600 with only 100 production cars ever built (actually 104 or 109 - no one seems absolutely sure!) rather than 1000 for a separate Gp2 homologation. This followed earlier homologation (1.8.72.) of the alloy block BDA as a routine change in RS1600 production. There may be photos of a 4 link axle in other contexts in the papers (axles etc.) but I feel sure there would not be an amendment specifically covering 4 links. If there was, it must be because an even earlier version of Gp2 required it, but by the early 70s and up to 31.12.75. 4 link works BDA cars in Gp2 were relying on Appendix J freedoms. You need the RS1600/1800 papers. Can anyone else here help? (I will ask elsewhere)
If you can establish the RS1600/1800 homologation papers had no specific written amendment to cover 4 links in Gp2, they would have to accept any other Gp2 car, including the RS2000, didn't need it either and all relied on Appendix J? The original standard RS1600 had the twin tramp bars so an amendment to the papers would have been required if wider Appendix J Gp2 did not cover it.
If they are still querying actual use at all, rather than how it was approved, I can find a "works" RS1600 photo showing 4 links.

[carsten.meurer]

i have not had the chance to look at the rs1800 papers myself, just rely on my friend telling me there is a
pic of an axle with 4 link rods on it - in what context that pic is in there ( i suspect it being the heavy duty
axle itself ) i am not sure of.

any need for earlier appJ seems unlikely, as this is where the capri started to use the 6 link,
and i have those sheets to prove that its not homologated.


there is no doubt with officials over here that a rs1800 is allowed to use 4 link.

the stupid thing is that they seem unwilling to understand that the changes to the rs1800 were
made according to appJ rather than a homologation.

hence they want proof of a RS2000 ( MK1 to appJ 75 ) with 4 link in period.

i rallye a mk2 rs2000 gr.1 myself, so i am familiar with the 5566 homologation sheet.


sorry to bother you with what needs to appear as ignorance,
but officials over here just shut off, being not willing to understand the actual rules they
should work along.


sad thing is cars like this already race, just my friend is asked to present the paperwork,
a blind eye is turned towards the others...