466 replies to this topic

[cheapracer]

Trying to get something resembling this up and running, nice cheap alternative to an Atom.



Started on the chassis 2 weeks ago www.flickr.com/cheapracer

[Ross Stonefeld]

I don't get it...where's the propeller?

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I don't get it...where's the propeller?

nyuk, nyuk, wise Guy eh? (as Curly would have said).

Or I could have said "it's a jetboat", that would have got ya.

[robroy]

Looks a beaut mate!

Hope you can effectively translate the rendering to life. You selling them fully built?

[tahadar]

Originally posted by cheapracer
Trying to get something resembling this up and running, nice cheap alternative to an Atom.



Started on the chassis 2 weeks ago www.flickr.com/cheapracer

concept looks awesome and the chassis looks nicely done. Have you modelled it in CAD or CAE software?

[Greg Locock]

Cute. I bet Neil's got some questions!

[phantom II]

Stop trying to copy me. Beat 430hp and 1800lbs. Guess what cars are behind those doors and I might open them for you. What are the specs on your car?




http://www.blogcdn.c...hel_cad_vrs.jpg

Originally posted by cheapracer
Trying to get something resembling this up and running, nice cheap alternative to an Atom.

Builds some of them himself too, the Guys nearly as good as me.

[Bill Sherwood]

Looks good!
What engine will you be using?

[cheapracer]

Thanks for the kind replys.

As my name implies, it's my desire to get something out there thats cheap and theres no reason that it won't be in the 10 - 12K at the moment for a basic turnkey although 1 plan is to supply a roller that you can bolt your own Toyota 4AFE (or 4AGE) or Ford 2.0 Zetec into as I have supply for those here after negotiations with Ferrari, Lambo and BMW broke down ;) The engine bay is large and basic on purpose for those who want to do their own other power unit.

Other than that I will sell at any stage or parts because I'm a whore.

Running a 90" WB and 67" tracks - this isn't so tuff to change either.

The plan is the first model will be very basic and cheap to get into the market and I will look into upgrades once underway such as suspension packages and either lightweight steel or aluminium frame and ideally, source a Euro 4+ spec V6 locally.

[cheapracer]

Just a bit better shot with some wheels on to give it more perspective.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by phantom II
Stop trying to copy me. Beat 430hp and 1800lbs. Guess what cars are behind those doors and I might open them for you. What are the specs on your car?




http://www.blogcdn.c...hel_cad_vrs.jpg

Now thats unusual and just darn interesting, any rear 1/4 shots please?

Who designed the general look?

I can produce those for you!

Oh that other one is a Cadillac powered special from Fran of Superlite http://superlitecars.com/ and Race Car Replicas http://www.racecarreplicas.com/ , pretty cool.

[NRoshier]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
Cute. I bet Neil's got some questions!

Will have, but getting the next mag together. There are plenty of Atom clones getting done about the place and two kits on the domestic market. Not sure how resolved the handling is.
I might suggest that the front nose be a faom filled crush box...no one has thought of any impact reduction measures on such cars yet!

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by NRoshier


1/ There are plenty of Atom clones getting done

2/ ..no one has thought of any impact reduction measures on such cars yet!

1/ It's "Atom inspired", it's not a clone, take it back you bastard !

2/ Don't talk on your mobile phone when you drive?

Seriously, you don't think the curves in the tubes will give some in impact verses straight tubes? Theres also a water to air heat transfer unit in there too. (In The Racers Comments Forum I would have said radiator).

[Stefan_VTi]

Those curved tubes seem to deform just fine, don't know if foam would help you in this case... Maybe an ejection seat? p2 can probably hook you up...

[cheapracer]

Don't forget to mention they walked away.

I think 4 point seat belts have a lot more to do with it than a crush box would have, not to reduce it's importance.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by cheapracer
Trying to get something resembling this up and running, nice cheap alternative to an Atom.



Started on the chassis 2 weeks ago www.flickr.com/cheapracer

Nice design, solid execution.

[Stefan_VTi]

Kidding aside, I like your idea! What's your weight target?

[robroy]

Originally posted by phantom II
Stop trying to copy me. Beat 430hp and 1800lbs. Guess what cars are behind those doors and I might open them for you. What are the specs on your car?

http://www.blogcdn.c...hel_cad_vrs.jpg

Nice to see a full pic of your beast. May I ask for some more pics of your radiator inlet/outlet? I also like your headlamps, although I don't think they'd pass SVA over here.

I know you have pretty good taste in old cars, so I'm hoping for an Abarth 1000SP, Alfa TZ1 and Matra DJet, but gonna go with ZR1, Ferrari 250 and an old british car of some sort. Am I near?

[robroy]

I imagine if you could provide a rolling chassis for under the 10 grand sterling mark it'd sell pretty well in the UK. Anything stopping a longitudinal Audi 1.8T unit from fitting?

Perhaps you'll need an agent in the UK for sales and getting through the SVA? I'll be happy to accept a couple of early cars for evaluation and marketing purposes

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by cheapracer
Don't forget to mention they walked away.

I think 4 point seat belts have a lot more to do with it than a crush box would have, not to reduce it's importance.

WELL......I wouldn't go so far as to say they 'walked away'. I believe there were 3 or 4 broken legs involved. They did live, though. If the driver would have had a brain in his head, they wouldn't have had much of a problem at all.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by robroy
I imagine if you could provide a rolling chassis for under the 10 grand sterling mark it'd sell pretty well in the UK. Anything stopping a longitudinal Audi 1.8T unit from fitting?

Perhaps you'll need an agent in the UK for sales and getting through the SVA? I'll be happy to accept a couple of early cars for evaluation and marketing purposes

I'm talking 10 - 12K USD with an engine. Today thats 7 - 8K Sterling. Just a roller would be cheaper. Hard to pin down at this stage because the Chinese RMB (currency) is still strong and previously my target was 10K but oh times have changed so in the last 6 months as we all know.

I anticipated some people may want custom chassis for engines such as longitudal and if someone asks me I will do the extra work for free at jigging stage, slightly longer WB but it's already short.

MEV have some cheap and interesting kits as well below 10K that I have seen. Yeah, I will need agents if it fires up, I only have the Enzo powered mule to send you though for evaluation, hope you can get by with it.

[Canuck]

I like. To bad Canuckistan is mission-impossible for small-volume cars. Such things just aren't welcome, much to my dismay.

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by cheapracer
What do you think Guys?

I'll take one in hatchback body style.

[phantom II]

Mine complies with section 49 of the DOT and also EPA for 2000. Side impact rules have changed but it meets frontal impact requirements. Less than 500 units per year receives some exemptions such as airbags and an actual crash test. I have a DOT issued 17 digit VIN and the headamp location is DOT approved. They have no ruling how far back the headlamps can be mounted, only hieght/width and reflective properties are stated.

Originally posted by NRoshier
no one has thought of any impact reduction measures on such cars yet!

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by phantom II
Mine complies with section 49 of the DOT and also EPA for 2000. Side impact rules have changed but it meets frontal impact requirements. Less than 500 units per year receives some exemptions such as airbags and an actual crash test. I have a DOT issued 17 digit VIN and the headamp location is DOT approved. They have no ruling how far back the headlamps can be mounted, only hieght/width and reflective properties are stated.

What tests do they perform to verify that it conforms with frontal impact requirements if they don't crash test one?

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Canuck
I like. To bad Canuckistan is mission-impossible for small-volume cars. Such things just aren't welcome, much to my dismay.

Don't understand why, go on the angle that you have the same right to make (and sell) a car that Toyota etc. does.

Some other reading...
http://www.tc.gc.ca/...s200804/faq.htm

.....from that;

Q 20. Why do kit cars generally NOT clear Customs?

A. Transport Canada knows that the kit car industry does not comply with North American federal safety standards. For example, according to the United States National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, there are over 200 kit car manufacturers in North America, and not one complies with federal standards.

[NRoshier]

Originally posted by cheapracer


1/ It's "Atom inspired", it's not a clone, take it back you bastard !

2/ Don't talk on your mobile phone when you drive?

Seriously, you don't think the curves in the tubes will give some in impact verses straight tubes? Theres also a water to air heat transfer unit in there too. (In The Racers Comments Forum I would have said radiator).

Oh no disrespect was intended, I like the look. I might suggest that the totally enclosed rear is wise: the atoms in Australia, just like the Lotus 340R cannot pass the drive-by noise test.
You miss understand my thoughts on the crush structure: Yes the primary tubes will bend - the forces will be very high and injury will likely result from even a minor event...even with a 5 point harness (my wife works as a neuropsyche/speech path with the transport accident commission so I have some insight into coup/contra coup injuries). However there are three advantages with the crush box idea: 1. no one else does it so you have a marketing advantage - a safer dream car is easier to justify. 2. In the event of a minor off the chassis will not be bent and harnesses will not have to be replaced. 3. You have an easily detachable styled box that you can sell as a spare - we all know that spares are easy money for car makers.
At that price I'll put my hand up for Australia/NZ!

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by NRoshier


Oh no disrespect was intended, I like the look. I might suggest that the totally enclosed rear is wise: the atoms in Australia, just like the Lotus 340R cannot pass the drive-by noise test.
You miss understand my thoughts on the crush structure: Yes the primary tubes will bend - the forces will be very high and injury will likely result from even a minor event...even with a 5 point harness (my wife works as a neuropsyche/speech path with the transport accident commission so I have some insight into coup/contra coup injuries). However there are three advantages with the crush box idea: 1. no one else does it so you have a marketing advantage - a safer dream car is easier to justify. 2. In the event of a minor off the chassis will not be bent and harnesses will not have to be replaced. 3. You have an easily detachable styled box that you can sell as a spare - we all know that spares are easy money for car makers.
At that price I'll put my hand up for Australia/NZ!

No offense taken thats why the face.

Yeah I wish I could say it was my design but I can't, this is a professional Guy doing that side of it and now he is working on the true dimensions from the chassis that I have given him the last few days and some change I suggested so it will be interesting to see if and what differences come through.

I plead ignorance about crash structures, point me to some reading.

I may just be interested, it's quite clear you have a reasonable marketing tool. What State are you in besides drunk?

[NRoshier]

I'm based in Vic.

[Canuck]

Originally posted by cheapracer

Don't understand why, go on the angle that you have the same right to make (and sell) a car that Toyota etc. does.

In that case then, it's not an issue. Toyota et al comply with all of Transport Canada's CMVSS requirements including crash-worthiness, brake testing (held up Indian Motorcycle for over a year), etc etc. To be fair I've not undertaken a thorough study of the regulations to see what all is entailed. I do know that Brahmma or whatever their name is out of the US, who was at one time tied into bringing the Ultima kit cars into the States, has been trying to get an Atom licensed on this side of the border for some time. To my knowledge, that car is still only allowed in Canada as a track-only or show-only vehicle. If you show up at the border driving your Atom, and you aren't a Canadian citizen, there's no problem visiting the country with your own car. If you sold while you were here and flew home, the buyer would not be able to get it registered.

I know of one Ultima GTR floating around at the other end of the country and there are, as noted, a handful of local kit-car outfits building 'glass 30's hotrods but nothing like what you're doing. Short of moving into the position of full-on auto manufacturer and complying with all the standards, there's no means to do this beyond the frame and a handful of parts.

Motorcycles on the other hand...talk about a free-for-all. When I still had my shop up and running, anyone and everyone could build and sell a motorcycle be it a kit, a room full of parts sourced from catalogues, full-on fabricatin of most or all of the parts or anywhere in between. The vast majority were either kits sourced outside the country or catalogue collections - not too many people took on the task of fabricating their own frame (although at one time I was in talks to buy a frame manufacturer). Things went along smoothly until the inevitable stories started coming out. Pictures of frames with the entire front neck broken off with the front end attached to the motorcycle only via the clutch and throttle cables courtesy of a low-speed front impact that didn't even knock the rider down. Front and rear wheels seizing up while riding, with a root cause failure being no grease in the tapered bearings. There was/is a frame/complete bike manufacturer locally that was using hydraulic tubing instead of DOM or seamless because "it's easier to run it through the bender"...no ****. This same outfit built and sold frames without a licensed welder on site and built bikes without a licensed motorcycle mechanic. It was only a matter of time until someone stepped in, and it turned out to be the insurance companies. Today, if you want to have your "home-built" motorcycle registered, it needs to be inspected by the insurance association's representative which checks your reciepts against the numbers on the engine, trans and frame (if it has one), and that you've done the work and not a commerical shop. That's right. To get around commerical outfits like the one above, the twist is any accountant can braze up some old coat-racks and curtain rods and build themselves a motorcycle, but a professional mechanic (or anyone else) who works in a commerical operation can't.

Anyway, if you can't comply with CMVSS, you need to sell me the frame and body structure such as it is, and I need to course most of the rest within Canada. Classic.

[zumeto]

Originally posted by NRoshier


no one else does it so you have a marketing advantage - a safer dream car is easier to justify.

That's what Malcolm Bricklin said!

[Powersteer]

Originally posted by phantom II

Has to be the solar systems ugliest side mirror ever so far.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Powersteer
Has to be the solar systems ugliest side mirror ever so far.

Yeah much worse than a US spec Ferrari 512TR hey?

[phantom II]

Behind the doors: 03 Olds, 03 Metro and a 09 ZR1. Elsewhere, 64 F250 Lusso, 63 Vette and a 06 z06. The Olds and Metro will be replaced by a CTS SW ( At last, my wife in a Caddy) and a Toyota Yaris. As far as English cars go, Ive been promising myself an E Type series 1 1/2 for years. A white or red coupe with chrome wires and white wall tires. I think the E Type and the 63 Vette are the best looking cars ever. The Lusso is the best looking street Ferrari. All 3 are pretty awful cars to drive but I stand and look at them often. All 3 are pretty unreliable especially the Jag.

This is my design. The headlamps in the grille are not legal. The main beams on the mirrors give excellent elumination and are DOT approved.. The size of the radiator changed the shape of the original nose design on the clay mock up.

Originally posted by robroy


Nice to see a full pic of your beast. May I ask for some more pics of your radiator inlet/outlet? I also like your headlamps, although I don't think they'd pass SVA over here.

I know you have pretty good taste in old cars, so I'm hoping for an Abarth 1000SP, Alfa TZ1 and Matra DJet, but gonna go with ZR1, Ferrari 250 and an old british car of some sort. Am I near?

[phantom II]

My design. I am redesigning the body. It will be enclosed. I may talk to you about production. I may even move to China.

Originally posted by cheapracer


Now thats unusual and just darn interesting, any rear 1/4 shots please?

Who designed the general look?

I can produce those for you!

Oh that other one is a Cadillac powered special from Fran of Superlite http://superlitecars.com/ and Race Car Replicas http://www.racecarreplicas.com/ , pretty cool.

[ben38]

Originally posted by phantom II
My design. I am redesigning the body. It will be enclosed. I may talk to you about production. I may even move to China.

Hey guys that's a revolution! Mr PII himself going to the reds!

Take care sir and bring all your red clothes along



For cheapracer: see e mail please

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by ben38


For cheapracer: see e mail please

Yeah I read it, you can't find the donkey and midget act on the mainland but I think Hong Kong has the short Nun's and the swinging monkey thing, hope that helps.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by phantom II
My design. I am redesigning the body. It will be enclosed. I may talk to you about production. I may even move to China.

]

I'm not sure about the tucked in rear guards, I think it's something you would have to see in the flesh to gain a better opinion.

Great job, bet it turns 1 or 2 heads.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by phantom II
My design. I am redesigning the body. It will be enclosed. I may talk to you about production. I may even move to China.

They look familiar!

They wouldn't be Holden Commodore VS tailights by chance would they?

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by phantom II
Behind the doors: 03 Olds, 03 Metro and a 09 ZR1.

Two out of three ain't bad. I was going to guess 'vette, Suburban and Metro.

Very nice looking custom BTW, other than the grille IMO. Any interior pics to share?

[zac510]

Its aesthetics aren't my cup of tea but it's getting a redesign so I'll hold off judgement!

Originally posted by cheapracer


They look familiar!

They wouldn't be Holden Commodore VS tailights by chance would they?

yellow, black tri-spoke wheels, GM V8.. is it a yank roofless GTS-R?

[robroy]

Originally posted by phantom II
Behind the doors: 03 Olds, 03 Metro and a 09 ZR1. Elsewhere, 64 F250 Lusso, 63 Vette and a 06 z06. The Olds and Metro will be replaced by a CTS SW ( At last, my wife in a Caddy) and a Toyota Yaris. As far as English cars go, Ive been promising myself an E Type series 1 1/2 for years. A white or red coupe with chrome wires and white wall tires. I think the E Type and the 63 Vette are the best looking cars ever. The Lusso is the best looking street Ferrari. All 3 are pretty awful cars to drive but I stand and look at them often. All 3 are pretty unreliable especially the Jag.

Thanks for the pics. V.nice.

I recently had a go in a Yaris and I was very impressed with the wee 3-cylinder 1.0 VVTi engine. The lightest production engine at the moment, I believe. I might use one for a future project.
Regarding the Lusso, have you tested the rebuilt diff properly yet?

[cheapracer]

This is the latest rendering by Gabe Warfield closer suited to the actual chassis. This shows me what I have to change as well now such as the roll bar height and shape to further get a final image.

[Bill Sherwood]

Originally posted by cheapracer



This is the latest rendering by Gabe Warfield closer suited to the actual chassis. This shows me what I have to change as well now such as the roll bar height and shape to further get a final image.

Looks good.

[NRoshier]

can I suggest that you do not make the roll hoops integral with the chassis, for any motorsport use they will need to CDS or equivalent.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by NRoshier
can I suggest that you do not make the roll hoops integral with the chassis, for any motorsport use they will need to CDS or equivalent.

Bolted or non bolted isn't an issue and heres a funny thing - my development room only has a door, you know, 2000mm by 850mm - I can't get anything in or out with a roll bar on :-)

Actually the roll bar area in the drawing is about 100mm too far back so it and the dash area will be coming forward in the next rendition which it looks like it needs for better visual balance anyway.

Do you get the feeling this Guy likes Mustangs ;)


Feeling Blue

[cheapracer]

Heres something funny, walked out the back of the Fibreglass Co. I develop moulds with, turned a corner and they have galvanising, anodising, soft and hard chrome and powder coating facilities, you could have knocked me over with a feather!

Only been going there for the last year - I really got to learn more Chinese!!

So I will probably gal my frames before powder coating and lots of nice gold anodised parts - my Mate didn't believe me that you can get anodising done in red, blue, green etc. in the West!

[NRoshier]

well powder coating may be an issue with gal/powder coating. Assie certifying engineers will want to see the welds to check them.

[McGuire]

Powder coating over galvanizing is tricky but when done right it damn near bulletproof. Much of the trouble is in the galvanizing itself... there are commercial "paintable" galvanizing finishes that will generally prevent a lot of the headaches.

One thing you want is a small spangle in the galvanizing which indicates good, tight adhesion to the metal substrate - a big spangle finish won't retain itself or the powdercoating as well and the whole thing may slough off. Also, sometimes the zinc in the galvanizing will gas through the powdercoating in the oven. This will appear for all the world like a problem with the powdercoat (pinholes, tiny blisters) when in truth it is the galvanizing outgassing through the powdercoat. Also, if the galvanized piece sits exposed to the atmosphere for any length of time it will develop a thin oxide dusting, naturally. It must be removed (media blasting or metal etch) before coating.

[cheapracer]

Thanks for the heads up. I already had some feeling about this just from trying to brush paint anything galvinised over the years and when I asked about it they said it wasnt a problem. I will do some testing about it first though, gal some stuff and send it through their oven - not the end of the world if it doesn't work, powder coating is still fine.

Neil, why do you think the welds won't be visable to them - because of the thickness of the powder coating?