94 replies to this topic

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by Crazy Canuck


Theres a great one liner about making money in racing that I first heard 20 or 25 years ago:

Q - How do you make a small fortune in racing?

A - Start off with a big one.

CC

I like that. I'll try to remember it.

[whitewaterMkII]

Originally posted by B Squared
I love the sport and want it to be as good as it can be.

Me too.
That's why I called BS since day 1 of the TG takeover. It's never been about the sport to him. It's been about him saying what the sport is, and what suits his one track.
Nothings changed since he changed the rules. A downward slope and a blot on IMS history.
I guess I should just shut up about it and enjoy what the TG ims dynasty provides ?

Got it.

Thanks.

[shaggy]

Originally posted by B Squared
Keir - Thanks for your comments and trying to bring some levity. I've had friends & acquaintances on both sides of the split. Most are somehow connected in the business, and they seem to be less worked up over it than some of the "fans" telling everybody that will listen how f'ed up everything is. I love the sport and want it to be as good as it can be. However, I have no stake in it. I'm frankly tired of rehashing everything involved over & over for the last 12) years. I refuse to care about it more than those who are actually a integral part of it. I will not do that anymore. My spirit has died all that it can over this. It is time to move on, for me. I'll still follow the IndyCar series, I'll go to races at times. Will it ever be the same to me? Probably not, but I'll continue to be open & hopeful to everything coming right again. I'm guessing that those participants who've been pouring money into IndyCar for, in some cases DECADES, know infinitely more than I. They should go on & continue in the sport & try to improve it. Who the hell am I to tell them how to do it better? And with, in many cases illustrated here, such vitriol & venom. I'm certainly not happy with alot about the IndyCar series, but I'm not going to "blow out an O-ring" over it. Again thanks, better go batten down the hatches and prepare for the verbal assault.

Brian

Everybody would like for the sport to be better. That is a given. But if the sport is no longer what it used to be, then, there is no reason for older fans to continue watching it. Now, if the sport cannot attract any new fans, then, there is a serious problem. That is the dilemma facing OW in the US today.

shaggy

[B Squared]

"I guess I should just shut up about it and enjoy what the TG ims dynasty provides ?"

Certainly not. My point is similar to what I used to tell continually bitching co-workers when I worked in a factory environment as a sheet metal fabricator many years ago. Some would want to tell me & anyone else that would listen, what the faults of the company were & how if our employer would do X,Y, & Z, how everything would improve exponentially. While their ideas may be brilliant, there is not one damn thing that I could do to get these ideas implemented. I would always suggest that they went straight to the hierarchy that could put their suggestions to work to bring the faltering company back from the abyss. That is my suggestion to you, if you have the answer to bring back IndyCar from its continuing, painful augering in - put all of your efforts into addressing the people in the position that can actually put into practice your offerings of a solution. I just don't get the concept of repeating the same arguments over & over to an audience that has no control over the situation. Possibly a non stop barrage by all of us who care, to the powers that be, would have a positive influence in the direction that this series takes. My thoughts only.

Brian

[B Squared]

"However, I suspect the Americans are only interested in their own, not in really being the best, as is evidenced by the "world" series." blackgerby

I must respectfully dispute this. The history of open wheel, IndyCar, racing in this country has had a strong international presence since the absolute minimum of 1913. There were years of foreign drivers not racing here, but by their choice only. I was only 3) years old when (Sir) Jack Brabham made his first appearance in 1961; I have read of the open arm welcome by the majority of American FANS to Jim Clark & Team Lotus in 1963. I experienced the welcome by the crowd for Jim Clark, Graham Hill, & Jackie Stewart among others in the mid '60's. The USAC hierarchy is another, well known, story. Sure, there were "boos" mixed in, but the crowd was appreciative & welcoming. Most really liked Jim. I personally have never been myopic about a driver's nationality. I'd like for USA drivers to be a part of it and successful, but I want the talent pool to be as deep as possible, regardless of their origin. Being a likable, decent individuable, or an a--hole is a more important trait for me in determining my favorites, Hence my long running support of Gil de Ferran when he ran. I want the series to be again thought of as a viable destination to demonstrate these talents. Americans, at least most of my generation and older, have ALWAYS been interested in being a part of the best.

Brian

[whitewaterMkII]

B
The key difference in your example is I was a customer, not an employee.
I've made my statement as forcibly as any customer can.
I won't buy a ticket. I've never missed a Long Beach Grand Prix, ever, and that is going back to F5000 and F1. At the peak of USOW racing, 1990-1994 I attended as many as five races a year.
Next year I won't be attending the LBGP, even though I've been offered free tickets from people I've attended with for years. I've traded that race, and my time, for the Monterey Vintage meet.
The only one who has control over the situation, TG, has chosen not to listen to customers like me, millions of us. What gives you the impression he's willing to take notice of customer dissatisfication now?

[B Squared]

"The only one who has control over the situation, TG, has chosen not to listen to customers like me, millions of us. What gives you the impression he's willing to take notice of customer dissatisfication now?"

whitewater - I don't think we are that far apart. I tried to express myself as the whole thing began all those years ago. To no avail, obviously. I'm pretty confident that we'd still be ignored as a voice at this point in time too. I just don't know of a better way to express my dissatisfaction than to do so with those in charge. I've cut way back on number of races attended, but I still go to a few per year. It is a part of me & my life that I will not give up. I have too few years here on this earth to 100% give it up. I simply try to enjoy it for what it is. To me this, as with every one of the hobbies I have in this life, is based on the people & friends involved. I cannot turn my back on them. Enjoying good times, laughs, and interaction with them is far more important to me than the race or event that brought us all together one more time to enjoy the friendships.

Brian

[red stick]

Originally posted by B Squared
I've cut way back on number of races attended, but I still go to a few per year. It is a part of me & my life that I will not give up. I have too few years here on this earth to 100% give it up. I simply try to enjoy it for what it is. To me this, as with every one of the hobbies I have in this life, is based on the people & friends involved. I cannot turn my back on them. Enjoying good times, laughs, and interaction with them is far more important to me than the race or event that brought us all together one more time to enjoy the friendships.

Brian

Me too. It's only in the past decade or so that I've had the time and disposable income to attend races and I'm in no hurry to give it up. That said, my last two Indy Car events have been joint weekends with sports cars, IRL/Grand-Am at the Glen and Champ Car/ALMS at Road America, and the race I'm looking at attending next year is IndyCar/ALMS at Mid-Ohio. Talking to the other spectators and hearing their stories has become a large part of the fun of these weekends.

[B Squared]

"and the race I'm looking at attending next year is IndyCar/ALMS at Mid-Ohio." redstick

That is one that I attend regularly. If you concur, let's try to meet at sometime over the weekend. That is what I'm talking about!

Brian

[red stick]

Originally posted by B Squared
That is one that I attend regularly. If you concur, let's try to meet at sometime over the weekend. That is what I'm talking about!

Brian

And one I've never been to. Sounds good to me.

[aportinga]

Originally posted by Keir
WOW !! Someone needs to read their own posts !!

All I ever see from some of you is Tony George bashing, Danica bashing, open wheel bashing and then you sit back and deny it and tell us all how you are great fans of the sport ! SILLY !!

If Tony George is doing such a horrific job, then why hasn't someone/anyone come forward and tried to do a better job ???

Oh, sorry, been there, tried that, failed and failed again and again. Tony and what he involves himself with is doing just fine. The only good idea that CCWS ever had was to cease to exist !

These comments regarding a series being crap and "everyone knows it" ?? I don't know who these "everyones" are except figments of the posters' imagination. Along with fictional dollar sums exiting Tony George's wallet.

And where oh where do you get this delusion that Toyota and Honda haven't spent what they clearly advertise and maybe recoup in sales ??? Their overspending is historic. Our Asian friends invented "over the top" R&D. Toyota's F1 budget could finance NASCAR lock, stock and restrictor plate barrels !! "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday." I remember when that was an American saying !!

I could go on and on and on and on ..... but it's just silly - SILLY !!

Justin Wilson is a good driver out of work in a F'ed up economy.

Get a life and get over it. I'm sure Justin has !!!

Your last comment just shows how out of touch with reality you are when it comes to this sport.

[Keir]

I've been around a long time and just when I've told myself that I'd seen it all ..... **** happens !!

When I drove Formula Vee, in a typical race with 30 plus cars, there would be 20 different chassis!!

We had Formula A, B and C, Then F5000, Formula Super Vee and Atlantic, Formula Ford, Formula Mazda, you name it !

Our sanctioning bodies have downsized themselves to almost nonexistance.

Tony George, hate him or dislike him, is the single driving force in openwheel racing in the USA. Everyone else, like Elvis, have left the building.

Again, the money is supposedly out there to make things better. I don't know where it is or who should be in charge of using it, but all I see on threads like this one is that the money is there and a profit can be made.

Like Steve Martin once said; "How to have a million dollars and pay no taxes" "First, get a million dollars, then pay no taxes!" Some people posting here think right along those lines !!

But go to any vintage race weekend and what will you see ? A bunch of rich drivers playing with their expensive cars !!

Money, he who controls it calls the shots ! It's the way it has always been !

[aportinga]

Originally posted by sschinning
Such a shame! thanx Tony ;-( Indycar was so much fun in the early years! All real racing fans watched it on Eurosport. For us it was a great desert after a nice meal of F1!

And now:

Just flush a bag of skittles down the toilet - about sums the last 10 laps of any NASCAR race.

[Keir]

aportinga,

Reality really isn't your strong suit !

[aportinga]

Originally posted by red stick




Me too. It's only in the past decade or so that I've had the time and disposable income to attend races and I'm in no hurry to give it up. That said, my last two Indy Car events have been joint weekends with sports cars, IRL/Grand-Am at the Glen and Champ Car/ALMS at Road America, and the race I'm looking at attending next year is IndyCar/ALMS at Mid-Ohio. Talking to the other spectators and hearing their stories has become a large part of the fun of these weekends.

**** when I was single I had disposable income - still do but now that has to be spread amongst 4 different people - wife & 2 lovely girls. I want racing to be part of theirs lives as much as it was mine. I want them to grow up and tell stories to their kids when I am long gone of places like Road America, Indy - hell even long walks on weekends at places long gone like Meadowdale. I want stories about Uncle Tom cooking steamed crab legs, Uncle Chuck makin fake wrist bands and uncle Bob just being uncle Bob. Paul Newman making a sadwich for my now 9 year old and dad's great wings.

That's what I want my kids to remember and in order to MAKE those memories I need to spend a fair chunk of change on towing a TT - taking time off work & getting my oldest out of school for a good reason. I just do not see that value any longer - there is no point and even my 9 year old knows this. It's just NOT the same.

Oh well - Boo Hoo.... Ski season is coming

[aportinga]

Originally posted by Keir
aportinga,

Reality really isn't your strong suit !

Ya well I hope your grand kids love the stories of Iowa and Motegi

[red stick]

Originally posted by aportinga
I just do not see that value any longer - there is no point and even my 9 year old knows this. It's just NOT the same.

Still enjoying going. Will quit when I don't.


(clearing throat)


Don't cry for us Aportinga
The truth is we shall not miss you
Enjoy your skiing
Your mad existence
We kept our tickets
Don't keep your distance

;)

[pingu666]

a double race meeting would be awsome to goto

i think its a number of factors that have contributed to this :

[red stick]

Originally posted by pingu666
a double race meeting would be awsome to goto

i think its a number of factors that have contributed to this :

Undoubtedly true. If both open wheel and sports car racing were in better shape, the option likely wouldn't exist. But it's a great opportunity to see a lot of great drivers. I'm particularly looking forward to seeing Gil de Ferran again.

[pingu666]

great cars too ;) , tho thats mostly the alms

i wanna goto lemans or silverstone lms races next year

[SKL]

I wonder with PLN's passing, the Newman in NHL racing is in name only, no "sponsorship" from Paul anymore... that has to hurt as well.

[anbeck]

Originally posted by SKL
I wonder with PLN's passing, the Newman in NHL racing is in name only, no "sponsorship" from Paul anymore... that has to hurt as well.

I would think think that the man wouldn't leave his racing team behind like that, he had surely taken care of this.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally posted by Keir
If Tony George is doing such a horrific job, then why hasn't someone/anyone come forward and tried to do a better job ???

But TG didn't let Champcar run the Indy 500 race and close down the IRL? That would easily have solved most of the problems and left a road-course based series more amible to the F1 fans on this board who are largely bored by oval racing.

Oh, sorry, been there, tried that, failed and failed again and again. Tony and what he involves himself with is doing just fine. The only good idea that CCWS ever had was to cease to exist !
[/B]

Most fans here prefer road course racing, and seemingly many would prefer a 'merged' series running a more exciting oval suitable modded Panoz to be a more thrilling and more 'merger', less 'take over' like scenario - it is a merger not a take over or 'compulsory acquisition' after all right?

[aportinga]

Originally posted by red stick


Still enjoying going. Will quit when I don't.


(clearing throat)


Don't cry for us Aportinga
The truth is we shall not miss you
Enjoy your skiing
Your mad existence
We kept our tickets
Don't keep your distance

;)

Just remember - I am not attacking you - I respect your choice as a fan. I am only calling out the IRL management - which has ****ed up the series in 13 years and failed this year to capitalize on everything and anything that stood for the end of the war and a finalized merger. The failure of that equates to a greater fan split along with IRL fans now turning their backs given as the series moves further away from the original scope.

I could just turn away but hope to god that things get better. But when we're stuck with this horrible product until 2011 (engine/chassis) and the series in now being pushed off to an obscure network - which is not going to help and in fact will make matters worse, I find it hard to hold out hope that anything will get done as it should.

No crying here - you enjoy it fine. YOU are not part of my equation.

[pingu666]

personaly i want ovals, street, roadcourse and whatever else they can run on. i want powerful engines, and cars that arent too ugly, i want a series that could pick up a sign, sneak up on f1 and start whacking f1 over the head

keeping this same car is probably the right decision, but they need to equalise it more and get honda to give the engine some more power at circuits where its safe todo that.

im notsure how they could of capitalised on the merger more either

[red stick]

Originally posted by aportinga
No crying here - you enjoy it fine. YOU are not part of my equation.

I really didn't think there was an attack. I just wanted an excuse to write "Don't cry for me, Aportinga." Really probably says much more about me than you.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally posted by pingu666
personaly i want ovals, street, roadcourse and whatever else they can run on. i want powerful engines, and cars that arent too ugly, i want a series that could pick up a sign, sneak up on f1 and start whacking f1 over the head

[slightly O/T] For me the best way for F1 to return to America would be to Indy on the Oval, the best drivers in the world should be proficient on all kinds of courses[/OT]

[Oversteer1]

Keir:

What type of FV did you race? I assume you're speaking of the SCCA ( Secret car club of America) when
you mentioned the mismanagement of the formula car series at the local / amateur level. They've proven
completely inept at managing almost anything with no adherance to rules when it benefits them financially.

Speaking of FV's, we had 1003 entries throughout the US for 2008', so they're still strong as a class
despite the SCCA's increasing # of formula car classes that have diluted the existing classes.

Thanks!

Mark

[Dudley]

Originally posted by V8 Fireworks


But TG didn't let Champcar run the Indy 500 race and close down the IRL? That would easily have solved most of the problems and left a road-course based series more amible to the F1 fans on this board who are largely bored by oval racing.

He did that because he wanted a series of American drivers run by small independant American teams rather than the 15 tonne gorillas like Ganasi, Penske and Team Green.

Well that worked out didn't it.

[aportinga]

Careful Dudley - you don't want to hurt anyones feelings.

[Rob]

Originally posted by Dudley


He did that because he wanted a series of American drivers run by small independant American teams rather than the 15 tonne gorillas like Ganasi, Penske and Team Green.

Well that worked out didn't it.

The dream was ruined when Jack Miller went home.

[whitewaterMkII]

Originally posted by Rob


The dream was ruined when Jack Miller went home.

No way, it was Racin' Gardner that ruined the whole 'vision'

[aportinga]

I wish Tony George the car owner would tell Tony George the series owner to ****off!

[Keir]

Oversteer1,

I drove a modified Autodynamics Mk5b rebadged the Erin DG83. It had a zero roll rear suspension and a number of other tweeks.

I don't remember using mismanagment with regards to the SCCA, who I always felt did their best for the racers.

Vee is/was a great class to race in, may it continue .

Getting back to Tony George, competition breeds excellence, so when you throw stones at Tony, remember, he has no competition. No one has/will come forward to challenge Tony George because he has the Indy 500.

So, everyone needs to stop acting like a bunch of pissy little bitches and get on with their lives.

You don't like the IRL, then stop watching !!

You don't like Tony George and how he runs things, then start your own series !!

[Crazy Canuck]

Originally posted by aportinga
I wish Tony George the car owner would tell Tony George the series owner to ****off!

CC

[whitewaterMkII]

Originally posted by Keir
You don't like Tony George and how he runs things, then start your own series !!

No problem.
Give me IMS.

[aportinga]

Originally posted by Keir


Getting back to Tony George, competition breeds excellence, so when you throw stones at Tony, remember, he has no competition. No one has/will come forward to challenge Tony George because he has the Indy 500.

So, everyone needs to stop acting like a bunch of pissy little bitches and get on with their lives.

You don't like the IRL, then stop watching !!

You don't like Tony George and how he runs things, then start your own series !!

Yeah because the pissy bitches are billionares - stupid comment

Do yourself a favor genious - put me on your ignore list.

[Keir]

aportinga,

Love to !! BTW, it's genius !!!

[red stick]

He's got you there ting--spelling isn't everything, but it helps keep the biting commentary biting in the proper direction!

[Keir]

It's all Justin Wilson's fault !!

[blackgerby]

Originally posted by B Squared
"However, I suspect the Americans are only interested in their own, not in really being the best, as is evidenced by the "world" series." blackgerby

I must respectfully dispute this. The history of open wheel, IndyCar, racing in this country has had a strong international presence since the absolute minimum of 1913. There were years of foreign drivers not racing here, but by their choice only. I was only 3) years old when (Sir) Jack Brabham made his first appearance in 1961; I have read of the open arm welcome by the majority of American FANS to Jim Clark & Team Lotus in 1963. I experienced the welcome by the crowd for Jim Clark, Graham Hill, & Jackie Stewart among others in the mid '60's. The USAC hierarchy is another, well known, story. Sure, there were "boos" mixed in, but the crowd was appreciative & welcoming. Most really liked Jim. I personally have never been myopic about a driver's nationality. I'd like for USA drivers to be a part of it and successful, but I want the talent pool to be as deep as possible, regardless of their origin. Being a likable, decent individuable, or an a--hole is a more important trait for me in determining my favorites, Hence my long running support of Gil de Ferran when he ran. I want the series to be again thought of as a viable destination to demonstrate these talents. Americans, at least most of my generation and older, have ALWAYS been interested in being a part of the best.

Brian

Thank you for your nice reply. You're right of course. I was very angry and made what was a very rude and untrue remark.
I'm sorry...

I would still like Justin to be in the IRL. He's a careful driver who likes to get the basics right before getting faster, and he was coming on strong at the end of the season. I reckon this year he would have given the top drivers a run for their money, and I would like to have seen that.

[Rob]

Originally posted by blackgerby
I would still like Justin to be in the IRL. He's a careful driver who likes to get the basics right before getting faster, and he was coming on strong at the end of the season. I reckon this year he would have given the top drivers a run for their money, and I would like to have seen that.

He is really down to earth and fast as well, an unusual combination but a very welcome one

I think he was fairly on it at the start of the year. Problem was that he was handicapped by an old Dallara that was significantly heavier than the newest ones.

[B Squared]

blackgerby - no problem, thanks to you for your response. Justin Wilson seems like a fine man & definitely is a talented driver that has proved he belongs. I hope he can find the right avenue to continue to be a part of IndyCar or ALMS in 2009.

Brian

[aportinga]

Originally posted by red stick
He's got you there ting--spelling isn't everything, but it helps keep the biting commentary biting in the proper direction!

Yeah - of what 6000 or so posts I make a grammar error here and there

I'm on his ignore list so now we can move on.

[Keir]

.... or backward !