25 replies to this topic

[rwills]

I'm interested in what engines ran in international competition in Lotus Elites. Obviously the 1200cc Climax was the main engine.

I was told by a fellow TNF poster that one of the Marks and Spencer family entered one at Le Mans in about 61 or 62. However although he practiced he didn't qualify as it was written off in qualifying. Some say the driver crashed it on purpose as he thought it overpowered and unsafe. Was this a 1500cc or 2 litre engine?

Obviously the underpinnings are closely related between the Elite and the XI but did an Elite run in an international event with anything other than 1200cc that would enable a car today to get papers with another engine?

Thanks in advance,

Roger

[Lotus11Register]

See posts 42 and 43 in this thread:

http://forums.autosp...y=&pagenumber=2

[rwills]

Superb!

Thank you.

[lil'chris]

Originally posted by rwills

I was told by a fellow TNF poster that one of the Marks and Spencer family entered one at Le Mans in about 61 or 62. However although he practiced he didn't qualify as it was written off in qualifying. Some say the driver crashed it on purpose as he thought it overpowered and unsafe. Was this a 1500cc or 2 litre engine?

Possibly this may have been the Elite entered by Team Lotus in 1960 & driven by Jonathan Sieff , who was terribly injured after hitting a house on the Hunaudieres / Mulsanne Straight during practice. According to the attached, it was a 1300 cc engine

http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1960.html#5

[David Birchall]

The 'underpinnings' of the Elite bore little resemblance to a Lotus Eleven-a twelve yes.
My understanding is that the car Seiff drove was destroyed. Possibly the car you mention was a series one-they could have very twitchy handling and certainly didn't need more power!

[Ted Walker]

One Elite was Club Raced in the 60s fitted with a 3.4 Jaguar engine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Charles Helps]

Originally posted by lil'chris


Possibly this may have been the Elite entered by Team Lotus in 1960 & driven by Jonathan Sieff , who was terribly injured after hitting a house on the Hunaudieres / Mulsanne Straight during practice. According to the attached, it was a 1300 cc engine

http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1960.html#5

Some confusion here as Sieff had his practice accident in the 1216cc Elite #62 while the 1960cc FPF engined Elite carried #31 as Jay Sloane and Jerry Entin have shown us in the Joe Sheppard thread.

Ian Smith in his Story of Lotus 1947 - 1960 book may have the answer, talking about the large engined car: "Drivers selected for Le Mans were Innes Ireland and Alan Stacey, but tragically Alan met his death at Spa, and efforts were made to find another driver, Jonathan Sieff seemed likely but a nasty crash in the Taylor and Crawley Elite (from which he made a miraculous escape) put him out of the running..."

I believe the 2 litre Elite survives today and has been re-engineered to solve the 1960 handling problems (which Ian Smith tactfully does not mention).

[Tweddell]

the fpf climax powered elite did survive and was in a german collection about 10 years ago, but was fitted with a fwe engine at that date.

[llmaurice]

For what its worth ,the 2 litre Elite was burning Innes's feet and caused deep concern as to if he could run the distance . The Seiff incident put paid to its running anyway as it was withdrawn after his accident in the T&C Elite.
WE had already suffered one serious accident with Mikes Lotus 18 at Spa so he was out of it ,the The Seiff accident at Le Mans was just too much .
Brit Pearce and myself ended up "spare" so we helped the late much loved Willie Griffiths with the Masson/Laurant Elite which won its class but we received NO thanks for our help from the Team themselves .

[Ted Walker]

I assume this post is really about fitting of a 1500cc FWB engine in an Elite "in peroid" as per Lotus X1.For that you will need International proof.

[D-Type]

In 1961 UDL Laystall ran an Elite at Le Mans driven by Cliff Allison and Mike McKee. According to WSRP, it had a 750cc Climax and ran in the Sports 850cc class. But I don't think that's what you are looking for.

Whilst looking for this, I also saw a couple of entries by David Hobbs of an Elite in the Sports 1.5 litre or 2 litre classes depending on the race. It was running in the Sports class because of the Hobbs "Mecha-matic" (I think that's the name) automatic transmission had not yet been homologated in the Elite; but I don't think it had an oversized engine.

Maybe your answer is to do a swap with one of the many Lotus XI owners who are running 1212cc FWE's, rather than period 1100 or 1500 engines.

[Red Socks]

Originally posted by Charles Helps


I believe the 2 litre Elite survives today and has been re-engineered to solve the 1960 handling problems (which Ian Smith tactfully does not mention). [/B]

Usual Historic racing stuff then!

[Charles Helps]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
I assume this post is really about fitting of a 1500cc FWB engine in an Elite "in peroid" as per Lotus X1.For that you will need International proof.

Would practicing but not competing in the race be sufficient, Ted? [just interested]

[Ted Walker]

Charles It would be a very arguing point especially if there is a programme entry with engine size stated.

[raceannouncer2003]

Originally posted by Charles Helps
Jonathan Sieff seemed likely but a nasty crash in the Taylor and Crawley Elite (from which he made a miraculous escape) put him out of the running..."

I guess! See link to photo:

http://fotos.iher.ne.....tus Elite.JPG

Vince H.

[llmaurice]

The Elite had actually almost demolished a small barn before it made the final resting place .

[David Birchall]

I think that would be considered as "Written off"!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by llmaurice
The Elite had actually almost demolished a small barn before it made the final resting place .

That would be the crack in the windscreen and dent in the passenger's door, right?

[Red Socks]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
Charles It would be a very arguing point especially if there is a programme entry with engine size stated.

One of the purposes of requiring International use is that it establishes an International specification. Ergo if the car was permitted to practice by definition it was qualified technically to compete.Thus meeting this element of the International qualification requirement.
FIA Historic Motor Sport Commission have accepted this for decades- with the current weekly re invention of the wheel by the current bunch mind you anything could be the rule.

[Red Socks]

Originally posted by David Birchall
I think that would be considered as "Written off"!

Plainly you are not in the business of resurrecting, sorry restoring, Historic Cars, David. This is clearly a straightforward project

[simon drabble]

interesting - so why haven't everyone picked up on this and started running 1500 engines (liek we all did in Elevens?) - suddenly really regretting selling my Elite last month!!!!!

[Red Socks]

Originally posted by simon drabble
interesting - so why haven't everyone picked up on this and started running 1500 engines (liek we all did in Elevens?) - suddenly really regretting selling my Elite last month!!!!!

Probably because of the known handling issues as reported before-though one assumes now addresed, it may be that the class break is bad, maybe no-one knows about it and maybe the Elite is just such a nice car with the standard engine that no -one is interested in changing. And another thing it stops being a GTS and becomes a Two Seat Racing Car, so goes into the same class as Elevens, etc.

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by Red Socks


Plainly you are not in the business of resurrecting, sorry restoring, Historic Cars, David. This is clearly a straightforward project

Right, I hadn't noticed the door handle was still intact!

[Charles Helps]

Originally posted by simon drabble
interesting - so why haven't everyone picked up on this and started running 1500 engines (liek we all did in Elevens?) - suddenly really regretting selling my Elite last month!!!!!

I am not sure whether anyone has provided any evidence of the 1460cc FWB engine being used in an Elite in period. Even the 1960 cc FPF is quite different to the 1.5 litre FPF so at the moment it would seem to be a choice between the 1216cc FWE or the 1960cc FPF twincam?

[bradbury west]

Those of us at the Jim Clark Film Festival will recall John Whitmore telling the story of how Innes Ireland really believed the 2 ltr Elite was a Jonah and would kill its driver as those involved had been killed/injured. I cannot recall which way round it was, but either Innes took JW's minivan and cleared off home, saying to tell ACBC he had left, or telling JW to go home to the UK.

Along with a French Elite running a v short stroke motor right out to 1300cc and 10,000rpm, I recall stories of an Elite with an FWB in what passed for historics in the early '90s - deeper engine note, lower revs etc. Clearly before the tuners got to work on some of the FWBs used today, qv a triple track test in MS or Octane a while back with an 11, a 17 and a Lola, with avariety of FW engines, but the FWB was running to about 8000rpm and 140 bhp.....just like in period, it says here, see Wally Hassan's book for his scoffing comments about the FWB, wheezy longstroke, rev restricted.
I am not aware of an Elite racing with an FWB in a recognised class, hillclimbs perhaps,- Tom Rose ??- in period.
We have had this discussion about one-off engines in another car in the thread on Lotus 17s and FWBs. ISTR that in such a case only the car which ran thus could do so in historics, qv the ex Arnold Glass 1500TC Lotus 27 etc, - or has it changed again?
Roger Lund

[Peter Horsman]

Careful, Roger, about that Octane track test. It was my 17 tested, and Mark Hales got the spec wrong in the data bit of the article. It was and is running the FWE, and will do 8,000 easily enough. The FWB of course would be struggling at 7,500 (7 would be a safer limit), and I think you mighty just get 140 brake out of a well-sorted FWB, depending on the rolling road maybe.

(That he got the spec wrong hasn't helped me, and was one of the reasons why my car was heavily scrutineered at the end of the last season - fortunately all ok.)