23 replies to this topic

[Jonas]

Hi,

I've been looking for quite a while after photos from the 1932 Eifelrennen, which I believe was held at May 29th of that year.

The following info I've taken from Leif Snellman's excellent site :

Winner: Rudolf Caracciola in an Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 Monza, carrying race No. 3

I'm most interested in any photos showing Caracciola's car from this event. Unfortunately I don't have access to any magazines from the time which may include such photos, nor has an Internet search revealed anything.

So if anyone could help I would be most grateful!

The reason for my search is that I'm trying understand which car was which of the 1932 Scuderia Alfa Romeo Monzas of 1932. This does not seem to be an easy task...

Best regards,
Jonas

[Rob Semmeling]

Here's one:

[Jonas]

Thanks a lot for that photo Rob!
It's interesting to see that Caracciola drove a red car. The car also had brighter stripes painted along its sides, like the Alfa Romeo factory cars at Monaco that same year. The general opinion seems to be that these stripes were yellow, but I have never found any primary source for this!

Anyway, the colour of Caracciola's Monza Alfa Romeo(s) of 1932 was according to this thread (post No. 21) by Leif Snellman:

17 Apr Monaco GP - white
22 May Avusrennen - white
29 May Eifelrennen - white
5 Jun Italian GP - crimson
19 Jun Lwow GP - white, black around radiator
From the French GP onwards Caracciola raced as full works driver with Alfa Corse's burgundy colored P3s

Main source: David Venables "First among Champions"

But I believe this to be more accurate:
17 Apr Monaco GP - white
22 May Avusrennen - white with dark (red?) radiator cowl
29 May Eifelrennen - red with (yellow?) stripes
5 Jun Italian GP - crimson
12 Jun Kesselberg Hillclimb - white with dark (red?) radiator cowl
19 Jun Lwow GP - white with dark (red?) radiator cowl

Why this change of colour all the time? After Monaco apparently Caracciola was considered a full member of Alfa Corse and would be allowed to race a red car, which he obviously did at Monza and the Eifelrennen. So why not at Kesselberg and Lwow?

Or was the colour not considered important? It was quite simply like this: there was one car that was painted white for the Monaco GP and this remained white all the time to at least 19 June. The appearances in between with a red car simply meant it was another car.

[coco]

Originally posted by Jonas
Thanks a lot for that photo Rob!
It's interesting to see that Caracciola drove a red car. The car also had brighter stripes painted along its sides, like the Alfa Romeo factory cars at Monaco that same year. The general opinion seems to be that these stripes were yellow, but I have never found any primary source for this!

Anyway, the colour of Caracciola's Monza Alfa Romeo(s) of 1932 was according to this thread (post No. 21) by Leif Snellman:

17 Apr Monaco GP - white
22 May Avusrennen - white
29 May Eifelrennen - white
5 Jun Italian GP - crimson
19 Jun Lwow GP - white, black around radiator
From the French GP onwards Caracciola raced as full works driver with Alfa Corse's burgundy colored P3s

Main source: David Venables "First among Champions"

But I believe this to be more accurate:
17 Apr Monaco GP - white
22 May Avusrennen - white with dark (red?) radiator cowl
29 May Eifelrennen - red with (yellow?) stripes
5 Jun Italian GP - crimson
12 Jun Kesselberg Hillclimb - white with dark (red?) radiator cowl
19 Jun Lwow GP - white with dark (red?) radiator cowl

Why this change of colour all the time? After Monaco apparently Caracciola was considered a full member of Alfa Corse and would be allowed to race a red car, which he obviously did at Monza and the Eifelrennen. So why not at Kesselberg and Lwow?

Or was the colour not considered important? It was quite simply like this: there was one car that was painted white for the Monaco GP and this remained white all the time to at least 19 June. The appearances in between with a red car simply meant it was another car.

Jonas,
according to Simon Moore, THE Alfa Monza-expert, Louis Chrion and Carraciola purchased 2 cars from Alfa Romeo. One car was white (with red stripes?) the other was red with white (?) stripes.

Perhaps they swapped both cars?

Ciao!
Walter

[RStock]

Originally posted by coco
Jonas,
according to Simon Moore, THE Alfa Monza-expert, Louis Chrion and Carraciola purchased 2 cars from Alfa Romeo. One car was white (with red stripes?) the other was red with white (?) stripes.



Ciao!
Walter

I don't think that happened until 1933 though , when Scuderia CC was formed .

[Jonas]

Originally posted by coco
Jonas,
according to Simon Moore, THE Alfa Monza-expert, Louis Chrion and Carraciola purchased 2 cars from Alfa Romeo. One car was white (with red stripes?) the other was red with white (?) stripes.

Perhaps they swapped both cars?

Ciao!
Walter

Yes, REDARMYSOJA is right. This was in 1933. And the cars were white with blue stripes (Caracciola) and blue with white stripes (Chiron)

For 1932 Caracciola drove for Alfa Corse.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Jonas
Thanks a lot for that photo Rob!
It's interesting to see that Caracciola drove a red car. The car also had brighter stripes painted along its sides, like the Alfa Romeo factory cars at Monaco that same year. The general opinion seems to be that these stripes were yellow, but I have never found any primary source for this!

Anyway, the colour of Caracciola's Monza Alfa Romeo(s) of 1932 was according to this thread (post No. 21) by Leif Snellman:

17 Apr Monaco GP - white
22 May Avusrennen - white
29 May Eifelrennen - white
5 Jun Italian GP - crimson
19 Jun Lwow GP - white, black around radiator
From the French GP onwards Caracciola raced as full works driver with Alfa Corse's burgundy colored P3s

Main source: David Venables "First among Champions"

But I believe this to be more accurate:
17 Apr Monaco GP - white
22 May Avusrennen - white with dark (red?) radiator cowl
29 May Eifelrennen - red with (yellow?) stripes
5 Jun Italian GP - crimson
12 Jun Kesselberg Hillclimb - white with dark (red?) radiator cowl
19 Jun Lwow GP - white with dark (red?) radiator cowl

Why this change of colour all the time? After Monaco apparently Caracciola was considered a full member of Alfa Corse and would be allowed to race a red car, which he obviously did at Monza and the Eifelrennen. So why not at Kesselberg and Lwow?

Or was the colour not considered important? It was quite simply like this: there was one car that was painted white for the Monaco GP and this remained white all the time to at least 19 June. The appearances in between with a red car simply meant it was another car.

In the races where Caracciola's car was painted white, he was the official entrant, not Alfa Corse. Gunther Molter's book about Rudi includes the list of 1932 events which Caracciola intended to tackle, drawn up before he secured the Alfa drive - Alfa did not contest the 'minor' German Formula events at that time and Lwow would have been seen as even less important to Portello. They'd have been essential in Rudi's view.

Of course, that doesn't help you find which chassis he was using .....;)

[Rob Semmeling]

The colour of Caracciola's car in 1932 was discussed at length by our German friends elsewhere, let me just answer your main question:

Originally posted by Simon Davis
1) Was Chris Nixon correct in asserting that 'his' photo depicted Caracciola in a white Monza?

No - without doubt Caracciola drove a red Alfa at the 1932 Eifelrennen with start number 3. There are more photos than the one I posted from "Motor und Sport".

I'm sure someone else will be able to tell you the "who and when" of Nixon's photo.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Simon Davis

3) If Tauber was the driver of the dark car, was he perhaps driving a Monza rather than a 6C-1500?

Täuber never owned a Monza. His 6C-1500 was painted in Swiss colours, with red body and white bonnet. And seeing as it's (just past) Christmas, I can exclusively reveal that when he retired from racing at the end of 1932 (as others have speculated but not confirmed), Täuber sold his Alfa to Hans Ruesch ....

[Pavel Lifintsev]

Originally posted by Simon Davis
I am not so sure whether the photo shown earlier in this thread is of Caracciola at the Eifelrennen.

So am I! The main reason for disbelieve would be the fences in the background, very similar to those discussed in the Eifelrennen 1934 thread starting with the post 462 on page 12. The conclusion was that it should be somewhere after the South Curve at the AVUS. Of course, the shot from Motor und Sport well could have been taken at Berlin as this race was held one week earlier. But as we know the only Monza presented at the Avusrennen was that of Caracciola and it was undoubtedly white. So whose 8C 2300 is depicted on this photograph? And where?

Interesting is also the quote from the The Motor (June 7, 1932) describing the Eifelrennen:

Von Brauchitsch who won the Avus Track event on the previous Sunday, this time used a big Mercedes with a normal body, as the streamlined car which he had at Berlin would not helped him on this steep and winding course. The other drivers had the same cars as at Berlin, with the exception of Dreyfus, who drove a 2.3-litre Bugatti, instead of a Maserati.
The race centered round the blue Bugattis of Chiron and Dreyfus, Caracciola's red Alfa-Romeo and three big Mercedes driven by von Brauchitsch, Stuck and Broschek.

Before somebody asked, there are no photos of Caratsch in the report!

So the Caracciola's Monza supposedly had been quickly repainted after the Avusrennen. Hell why?! He again had entered under his own name! Or were there really two cars, white and red? If the above picture comes from the Berlin event, might Rudi by chance practiced both cars and then chosen the white one for the race? Could the red Alfa be the one entered by Zanelli? Or am I going too far in my assumptions?

[Jonas]

This topic is getting really interesting, although I have to admit to being fairly confused over it all.

I recently found the picture shown in the link below on http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk (some excellent photos in their picture library, I recommend you all to have a look around!)

Link to photo
[Edited: Updated image address, which didn't seem to work properly]

The photo is captioned Rudolf Caracciola in an Alfa Romeo Monza racing car, Berlin, 1932
Is this right?! For someone with more knowledge about the AVUS circuit it must surely be possible to confirm (or the contrary) the location with the help of the distinctive building in the background!

So, did Caracciola indeed have two different cars for that event? In that case the car used for practise was a red one while for the race a white car was used.

[Jonas]

Originally posted by Simon Davis
...I wonder if Caracciola also had two Alfas at the Nurburgring for the Eifelrennen?

Now this is indeed an interesting question! Does anyone have any further information on this?

Originally posted by Simon Davis
The red Alfa at AVUS looks exactly like the one in the Eifelrennen picture earlier in this thread. Is that a stripe down the side of the car above the exhaust?

It sure is! This, and the fact that the radiator does not seem to have any studs fitted on the side of the radiator (I know, the picture is not really clear enough to tell this for sure..), implies that Caracciola's red car could be one of the Alfa Corse Monaco GP cars (driven by Nuvolari, Borzacchini and Campari).
I would love to see more photos of Caracciola's red car to be able to further investigate this!

Originally posted by Simon Davis
With regards to the www.scienceandsociety.co.uk website have a look at this photo of Frau Steinweg at AVUS 1932. Rudolf Steinweg competed in the 1500cc class of the AVUSrennen (and the Eifelrennen) at the wheel of an Amilcar. Thus the dark coloured Alfa with the stripe that Frau Steinweg is posing with is surely the Caracciola Alfa?

Hopefully you can see the picture by following the link below:-
http://www.sciencean...ag=2&imagepos=5

Ok, I have seen this photo and actually chosen not to comment upon it until now.
I think that the caption for that photo is wrong. I believe the photo was taken during the 1933 AVUS-rennen and that it's Charly Jellen's car. In Simon Moore's "The Legendary 2.3", page 829 there are two photos showing this car. One of the photos even shows the same lady. Moore has the lady named as Edith Frisch, who, apparently, was a T37A Bugatti driver.

In addition to this, when comparing the cars in detail, there are small differences:
- the scuttle bodywork in front of the passenger is not exactly the same (Caracciola's car seem to have more of wind deflection)
- the windscreen is mounted slightly differently
- the bright stripe on Jellen's car seems somewhat wider and brighter than that on Caracciola's car

Small differences, but in my opinion enough to say that the photos do not show one car from the same event.

If anyone has any comments on this please share!

[Otto Grabe]

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling
Here's one:

Given that there were two Monza's at Caracciola's disposal, I tend to assign this picture to the Avus. IMO this could be the very place as shown here in the 1934 thread: the slightly banked access to the North curve. Though this flat photo does not show clearly the surface of the track (bricks), the fence in the back and the white line in the foreground confirm that.

http://forums.autosp...=&pagenumber=15

What do you think?

Otto

[coco]

Originally posted by Jonas

Now this is indeed an interesting question! Does anyone have any further information on this?


It sure is! This, and the fact that the radiator does not seem to have any studs fitted on the side of the radiator (I know, the picture is not really clear enough to tell this for sure..), implies that Caracciola's red car could be one of the Alfa Corse Monaco GP cars (driven by Nuvolari, Borzacchini and Campari).
I would love to see more photos of Caracciola's red car to be able to further investigate this!


Ok, I have seen this photo and actually chosen not to comment upon it until now.
I think that the caption for that photo is wrong. I believe the photo was taken during the 1933 AVUS-rennen and that it's Charly Jellen's car. In Simon Moore's "The Legendary 2.3", page 829 there are two photos showing this car. One of the photos even shows the same lady. Moore has the lady named as Edith Frisch, who, apparently, was a T37A Bugatti driver.

In addition to this, when comparing the cars in detail, there are small differences:
- the scuttle bodywork in front of the passenger is not exactly the same (Caracciola's car seem to have more of wind deflection)
- the windscreen is mounted slightly differently
- the bright stripe on Jellen's car seems somewhat wider and brighter than that on Caracciola's car

Small differences, but in my opinion enough to say that the photos do not show one car from the same event.

If anyone has any comments on this please share!

Jonas,
my uncle Walter Bäumer and father were both close friend to Charly Jellen and Edith Fritsch (well, my uncle was a bit ...eh..."closer" to her...) and I have many photos of both with their cars in our family album.
The chassisnumber of Jellen`s Alfa was for long time unknown as most photos shows his car only partly. I have found one shot in our archive that clearly identified the car due to a strange crossbar on the front-axle. Unfortunately I met Simon Moore too late with this info for his fantastic book about the 2.3- and 2.6-Alfas but he could could clearly identify the car.

In that photo here of Carracchiola this crossbar can be clearly seen so I strongly assume it was the Jellen-car he drove in the 1933-Avus. Good catch !

Ciao!
Walter

[Jonas]

Originally posted by coco
The chassisnumber of Jellen`s Alfa was for long time unknown as most photos shows his car only partly. I have found one shot in our archive that clearly identified the car due to a strange crossbar on the front-axle. Unfortunately I met Simon Moore too late with this info for his fantastic book about the 2.3- and 2.6-Alfas but he could could clearly identify the car.

Thanks Walter, for your input!
I've actually also spotted a photo quite recently showing Jellen in his car with the (very) early series 2.3 Alfa shock absorber mounting crossbar. This, in combination with other details like a slightly different body shape, has enabled me to establish the chassis number with a level of confidence that I feel comfortable with. Your comment above confirms my theory.

Originally posted by coco
In that photo here of Carracchiola this crossbar can be clearly seen so I strongly assume it was the Jellen-car he drove in the 1933-Avus. Good catch !

I do not agree to this conclusion. I do not see any such crossbar in that photo! What you see is a horisontal body cover in front of the radiator. The angle of the photo makes it look slightly like a crossbar perhaps, but it's not. In the photo the later type shock absorber mountings (an angled type which also served as mud-guard mountings) can be seen, albeit not very clearly.

On the top of this horisontal body sheet in front of the radiator there is a bright feature. This can, of course, be a reflection of light. Otherwise there is the possibility that it is a registration number written in white on it. Now THAT would be interesting to see a clear picture of!!

Best regards,
Jonas

[coco]

Originally posted by Jonas



On the top of this horisontal body sheet in front of the radiator there is a bright feature. This can, of course, be a reflection of light. Otherwise there is the possibility that it is a registration number written in white on it. Now THAT would be interesting to see a clear picture of!!

Jonas,
OK, I am not a technican. But it was possible for Simon Moore to identify the car from my photos because they show that the car had a strange connection between both front end of the chassis. This was positioned approx. 20-25 cm in front of the radiator cowl. This and some other body-details clearly solved the mystery. The car is still existing and was for sale with German dealer KLaus Werner some years ago. He displayed the car on the TECHNO CLASSICA in Essen on his stand.

Ciao!
Walter

[Jonas]

Originally posted by coco
Jonas,
OK, I am not a technican. But it was possible for Simon Moore to identify the car from my photos because they show that the car had a strange connection between both front end of the chassis. This was positioned approx. 20-25 cm in front of the radiator cowl. This and some other body-details clearly solved the mystery. The car is still existing and was for sale with German dealer KLaus Werner some years ago. He displayed the car on the TECHNO CLASSICA in Essen on his stand.

Ciao!
Walter

Walter,
Yes, you are quite right in what you state above and I understand that the Jellen car was identified with the help of your photos. This is really great!

My point was that we should be careful not to mix the car Jellen raced during 1933 (and -34) with the one Caracciola apparently practised in at AVUS and raced at Eifelrennen in 1932. The paintwork would be the obvious reason to assume that it was the same car. But I am convinced that these were two completely different cars.

[Jonas]

Maybe this is not any news for you guys, but I only recently found this archive, which has a lot of very interesting photos, well worth spending some time looking around:
http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/

Amongst the photos in this collection I found this one of Caracciola and his Alfa Romeo, calimed to be from AVUS 1932:

I must admit that this only further contributes to my confusion about the paintwork of the 1932 Monza Alfa Romeos, and Caracciola's cars in particular.
From what I've seen so far it seems that Caracciola brought two cars to AVUS 1932, one red with stripes for training and the white one with a dark radiator for the race.
So, now there is a photo, claimed to be from the same event, showing an all white car?!

Does anyone know anything more about this?

[David McKinney]

Too many people around his own car, so he sat on the front of someone else's for the photograph?

[Jonas]

Very interesting photo. Just when you are dealing with two different colour schemes along comes a third!

I believe it is Caracciola's car because Zanelli was the only other Alfa driver and he was a DNA for AVUS 1932. I have discovered further photos of the race to confirm without any doubt that Caracciola drove a white Alfa with a red nose band. So here is my thoery for the photo of the all white car. At the Monaco GP Caracciola drove an all white Alfa as we know. After this race he was accepted into the Alfa team by the other drivers in recognition of his sportmanship. The next race is AVUS and along comes the car still in its all white livery. At some point during practice someone gets a paint brush out and adorns the nose with the red band that appears in the race itself. Thus it is at AVUS that the act of adding the red band takes place.

I also have very little doubt that it is in fact the same car that he did race, albeit with a red radiator. And in that case the chain of events can't differ much from what you describe Simon. But would the red radiator really be that meaningful a sign to show the closer relationship to Alfa Corse?!
Otherwise I thought of the possibility that the radiator cowl on the white car was damaged in some way during practise and the piece from the red car was fitted temporarily. But then there should be traces from the two brighter lines visible. And there were of course more appearances with the white-car-red-radiator-cowl-configuration later on in the season..

[Jonas]

Interesting theory about the possibility of a damaged cowl. But yes I think a red nose could be deemed sufficient to register the link with Alfa Romeo. There are many examples in pre-sponsorship motor racing of different coloured noses etc. to reflect different drivers. It would be a clear visual link whilst maintaining the white of Germany. Bear in mind that Caracciola only drove the white car with a red nose band in German events, with the exception of Lwow. Thus the white paintwork would remind the spectators that Caracciola was a local boy! Plus, in all of these events Caracciola himself was the entrant, not Alfa Romeo, as per his contract.

I suppose you are right about this. It is, in my view, the most logical explanation.

On looking at his races in 1932 once again I can only think that Caracciola did indeed have access to two Monzas - one white and one red. Otherwise why race a white car at Avus, a red one at the Eifelrennen and the Italian GP and then a white one again at Kesselberg and Lwow? The photos that have been unearthed of Caracciola at Avus next to red and white Monzas adds weight to this theory. If this supposition is correct the questions then are what determined which car he drove where and did he ever turn up with both cars at his disposal as seems the case at Avus? I like the idea that the nature of the event determined the colour ie, German races in which he raced a Monza rather then a P3 = white car. Maybe the Lwow GP qualifies because it was a minor race and had a strong German content?

Yes, I think it is very safe to rule out that he should have had just one car. There is a substantial amount of repaintings to account for otherwise!
Pure speculation on my behalf: could it be that the white car was chosen for AVUS because of greater public attention to this event? The Eifelrennen was perhaps considered a less significant event? (It certainly seems like it now when I'm looking for photographs from there, unfortunately finding very little!)
Then for that event, which was only a week later, he entered with the other car because it was mechanically fresher, not having been raced before?

[Fabienne]

Hello all

Would anybody be so nice and post a picture of Caracciolas all white, red striped, Alfa? Or perhaps send me a PM? I haven't
seen such a picture bevor!

Thank you in advance.

Best regards

Max

[Jonas]

Hello all

Would anybody be so nice and post a picture of Caracciolas all white, red striped, Alfa? Or perhaps send me a PM? I haven't
seen such a picture bevor!

Thank you in advance.

Best regards

Max

Hello Max,

I'm fairly certain that Caracciola never drove a white Alfa with red stripes. But he certainly did drive a white Alfa with a red radiator cowl.

On this site: Bildagentur für Kunst, Kultur und Geschichte (which has a lot of very interesting photographs in it, well worth spending some time!) there are two photos of this car.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be possible to post a direct link to the photographs, but if you follow this link you will see them.

(Thank you again, Simon, for your material! It was when I investigated one of the sources stated, that I found this archive.)

[Fabienne]

Hello Max,

I'm fairly certain that Caracciola never drove a white Alfa with red stripes. But he certainly did drive a white Alfa with a red radiator cowl.

On this site: Bildagentur für Kunst, Kultur und Geschichte (which has a lot of very interesting photographs in it, well worth spending some time!) there are two photos of this car.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be possible to post a direct link to the photographs, but if you follow this link you will see them.

(Thank you again, Simon, for your material! It was when I investigated one of the sources stated, that I found this archive.)

Thank you very much, Jonas!! Very interesting!

Kind regards

Max