48 replies to this topic

[Galko877]

Does anybody else remember this?

Has anything come out of it? I remember Mosley said it was not a top team and there were speculations flying around about Stewart. But has anything been revealed?

[Matt Hughes]

Seem to recall something about Jordan, but I'm not sure.

[Welsh]

Was that not McLaren and the 3rd pedal?

[undersquare]

Originally posted by Welsh
Was that not McLaren and the 3rd pedal?

No that wasn't against any rule, apart from the one about not being red enough (as Ron said ).

It was something not known, that's why it was a mystery when Max said this.

[derstatic]

Believe the 3rd pedal thing was 1998 and as it has been said, it was not against the rules as they were written. They were banned later. Jordan sure did well in 1999 especially in the wet, could be a candidate. But if it didn't affect the championship we can exclude only McLaren. All others could be possible.

[D.M.N.]

Didn't Ferrari "cheat" in the barge board saga at Malaysia 1999?

[Rob]

Originally posted by D.M.N.
Didn't Ferrari "cheat" in the barge board saga at Malaysia 1999?

I think it was more that the FIA cheated everyone else by redefining how you measure something. A tolerance that in the regulations applied to the plank, suddenly applied to all dimensions.

[scheivlak]

IIRC Mosley specifically mentioned at the time that it was a midfield team, i.e. not McLaren or Ferrari.

Speculation centered around Jordan and Stewart.
Personally I think that if it was Stewart, Mosley might have hinted it a few times more later on....

[pUs]

My guess is, Jordan or Stewart. They were just too big of a surprise that year, and never found the same form again.

[Lewis Hamilton F1]

I once heard somebody say that every car has some part of it that is not legal - I think that was at the bendy wings time...

[Jacquesback]

The illegality was traction control.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Isn't it highly irresponsible for a head of FIA to claim that one of the teams was cheating, but not name it? Not only is Max admitting that his organization let the cheater off the hook, but he's also casting a shadow over at least one of the innocent teams. Either Jordan or Stewart have the legitimacy of their good performance cast in doubt due to these insinuations, maybe even both of them. What a turd that guy is.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by pUs
My guess is, Jordan or Stewart. They were just too big of a surprise that year, and never found the same form again.

You also have to remember that 1999 was a strange year. Both McLaren and Ferrari lost form rapidly after Schumacher was sidelined, and that let the other teams look good. In addition, back in those days, cars didn't run with military precision, there was a lot more variance in the pace of cars, so it was possible for a midfield team to hit it right and have a good streak for a while even under normal conditions.

[Pilla]

I think it was Stewart, Jordan was competitive towards the end of 98, and was fast but fragile in 2000.

[Rob]

Originally posted by Pilla
I think it was Stewart, Jordan was competitive towards the end of 98, and was fast but fragile in 2000.

If it was Stewart, Max would have taken much joy in revealing to the world that it was Jackie's team.

[equality]

i think it was mclaren.

[wj_gibson]

I dunno about Jordan. Damon Hill had near-infinite knowledge and experience of TC cars. Would he really have been so hopeless? Frentzen had a scare with launch control at its return race at Barcelona in 2001. Was he really so out of sorts with such electronics? My money is on someone like Prost's team, not Jordan's.

[Rob]

Originally posted by wj_gibson
I dunno about Jordan. Damon Hill had near-infinite knowledge and experience of TC cars. Would he really have been so hopeless? Frentzen had a scare with launch control at its return race at Barcelona in 2001. Was he really so out of sorts with such electronics? My money is on someone like Prost's team, not Jordan's.

I have a gut feeling that I read something about this back in the day which mentioned Sauber.

[lokiman]

Originally posted by derstatic
Believe the 3rd pedal thing was 1998 and as it has been said, it was not against the rules as they were written. They were banned later. Jordan sure did well in 1999 especially in the wet, could be a candidate. But if it didn't affect the championship we can exclude only McLaren. All others could be possible.

It was 1998 and, whilst the system was run on the cars in the early part of the season, F1 Racing Magazine spilled the beans and Ferrari protested the system, which resulted in the FIA issuing a clarification of the rules prior to the Brazilian Grand Prix, effectively banning the system. McLaren hadn't actually done anything wrong, because they had already noitified the FIA of the system during its development and the cars had passed scrutineering according to the rules as interpreted at the time. FYI - the system was ultimately considered contrary to the rules, because it was deemed to be a form of four-wheel steering, which is not allowed. Bloody clever system, mind........

[TennisUK]

I recall it was Stewart (I think there's a few other threads round here which reached this consensus) and I think it was related to traction control. Not in itself surprising, since prior to the common ECU, TC would have been straight forward to obfuscate within the software (well, reasonably straight forward!).

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Rob


I have a gut feeling that I read something about this back in the day which mentioned Sauber.

IIRC that was 2001, following suggestions made by HH Frentzen (Jordan) after the 2001 Australian GP when he ran close behind a Sauber for the last half of the race.

[Nobody]

Originally posted by equality
i think it was mclaren.

i think it was ferrari

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by equality
i think it was mclaren.

Most certainly not - see my earlier post.
If it was McLaren Max would never have said that it didn't materially have an effect on the championship.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Nobody

i think it was ferrari

Most certainly not either - as Ferrari won the WCC in 1999.....

[John B]

Jordan and Stewart were the teams that have been most referenced to this, especially the former. The rainy French GP was one place where this (if true) was particularly evident. RB was very fast and may have even had the pole, and HHF won the race. Then HFF at the penultimate race at Nurburgring - where he had a very realistic shot at the title - led in the wet, retiring in the pits under circumstances that have been rumored about since (i.e. TC failure). Would have been an interesting situation if somehow he had pulled off the win and managed a title out of it.

Such was their sudden form that it was considered a no brainer that Honda would win out of the box well before BMW in their engine debuts - but Jordan was nowhere in 2000.

[gerry nassar]

Actually Jordan was fast in 2000, just unreliable.

I think it was Stewart as I recall hearing or reading Mosely say that it didnt effect the top 3 at the FIA end of year awards (where they would have given trophies to Mika, Irvine and HHF...) but can find that on the net...

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by John B
Then HFF at the penultimate race at Nurburgring - where he had a very realistic shot at the title - led in the wet, retiring in the pits under circumstances that have been rumored about since (i.e. TC failure).

He didn't retire in the pits, but immediately after his pitstop in a way that left many people frowning.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by scheivlak
He didn't retire in the pits, but immediately after his pitstop in a way that left many people frowning.

Didnt DH retire in the exact same place after his stop as well.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Clatter
Didnt DH retire in the exact same place after his stop as well.

It was at exactly the same spot, but on lap 1 - so right after the start, but in the same way.

When I saw HHF retiring at the same spot it was difficult to discard the deja vu feeling.

[Knowlesy]

Jordan and Stewart were always the ones mentioned in connection with this. Never sure why, although I paid little attention to this whole thing.

I personally wouldn't be surprised if it was BAR, given their astonishingly arrogant entry into the world of F1.

[Mauseri]

Didnt Benetton run some sort of brake system which prevented the less loaded front wheel from locking up... Not that it has anything to do with TC... But Richards was there and he cheated with BAR as well.

As for TC my bet is Jordan because Frentzen never was so consistent.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by micra_k10
Didnt Benetton run some sort of brake system which prevented the less loaded front wheel from locking up... Not that it has anything to do with TC... But Richards was there and he cheated with BAR as well.

As for TC my bet is Jordan because Frentzen never was so consistent.

How did he cheat at BAR?

[markpde]

Originally posted by Rob


If it was Stewart, Max would have taken much joy in revealing to the world that it was Jackie's team.

And if it wasn't Stewart, Max will be taking much joy in people speculating that it was...

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by micra_k10
Didnt Benetton run some sort of brake system which prevented the less loaded front wheel from locking up... Not that it has anything to do with TC... But Richards was there and he cheated with BAR as well.

Not true, the fuel tricks happened after DR left!

[lokiman]

Originally posted by micra_k10
Didnt Benetton run some sort of brake system which prevented the less loaded front wheel from locking up... Not that it has anything to do with TC... But Richards was there and he cheated with BAR as well.

As for TC my bet is Jordan because Frentzen never was so consistent.

I'm not aware of any accusations of cheating against BAR whilst David Richards was at the helm.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by scheivlak
Not true, the fuel tricks happened after DR left!

OK... he visit was then shorter than I could ever remember...

[PLAYLIFE]

Originally posted by John B
Jordan and Stewart were the teams that have been most referenced to this, especially the former. The rainy French GP was one place where this (if true) was particularly evident. RB was very fast and may have even had the pole, and HHF won the race.

From memory, I believe HHF won the race because he was fuelled longer and on a different strategy. For most of the race he was further down the standings. And there was a SC too which affected the results. HHF didn't win Magny-Cours on pure speed.


I'd believe it was Stewart who were 'cheating' as their form was above expectation. Even though they had a poor 1998 and 2000 (Jag) relatively speaking, you can't really use seasons prior and post to assess the performance of a team.

[Zippel]

Originally posted by Knowlesy
Jordan and Stewart were always the ones mentioned in connection with this. Never sure why, although I paid little attention to this whole thing.

Mosley at the time referred to the culprit as a mid-grid team, and as they were the only two who jumped up in success from 98 to 99 then dived in 2000 that's why they are looked at the most.

[Zippel]

Originally posted by PLAYLIFE



I'd believe it was Stewart who were 'cheating' as their form was above expectation.

And the company whose engine was in the back did have a similar scandal 5 years previous.

[markpde]

Originally posted by PLAYLIFE
I'd believe it was Stewart who were 'cheating' as their form was above expectation. Even though they had a poor 1998 and 2000 (Jag) relatively speaking, you can't really use seasons prior and post to assess the performance of a team.

Having just read his autobiography, I could never believe Jackie Stewart would knowingly endorse cheating - and he would surely have wiped the floor with anyone who did it behind his back. If you don't believe that, then you don't understand the man.

Max will be loving this...

[Rob]

Originally posted by markpde

Having just read his autobiography, I could never believe Jackie Stewart would knowingly endorse cheating - and he would surely have wiped the floor with anyone who did it behind his back. If you don't believe that, then you don't understand the man.

Max will be loving this...

I thought that the reason Stewart jumped up was because they took radical steps with the 1999 car. The previous two years saw evolution of the initial design. 1999 saw a whole new car and it was visually very different to the previous trends - it looked similar to the 1998 McLaren. The carbon fibre gearbox was starting to bear fruit as well.

I really don't think it was Stewart. It doesn't seem plausible.

[Rob]

Originally posted by scheivlak

IIRC that was 2001, following suggestions made by HH Frentzen (Jordan) after the 2001 Australian GP when he ran close behind a Sauber for the last half of the race.

Ah, OK. I might be mistaken then.

[Frans]

Yes it was Ferrari, who DOESN't remember?

They legalised traction control in the end, because the cheating never stopped!!!!

It was traction control, but they called it engine mapping. Clearly illegal, and an unfair advantage over the other teams..... but other teams had something likely as well, .... but it was Ferrari what took the contructors title back then, no? But not the drivers title,.... so the FIA decided not to punish the ones involved.

[Orin]

Originally posted by markpde

Having just read his autobiography, I could never believe Jackie Stewart would knowingly endorse cheating - and he would surely have wiped the floor with anyone who did it behind his back. If you don't believe that, then you don't understand the man.

Max will be loving this...

My thoughts too. It could just have been Mosley schit-stirring to spoil Stewart's party. If there were anything in the rumours then the two dodgiest team principals were Jordan and (pre-Richards) BAR's Pollock.

[Zarathustra]

Originally posted by Frans
Yes it was Ferrari, who DOESN't remember?

They legalised traction control in the end, because the cheating never stopped!!!!

It was traction control, but they called it engine mapping. Clearly illegal, and an unfair advantage over the other teams..... but other teams had something likely as well, .... but it was Ferrari what took the contructors title back then, no? But not the drivers title,.... so the FIA decided not to punish the ones involved.

It was a big thing in F1 Racing mag at the time, as I recall. Their evidence seemed a bit dubious though, even to a twelve year old McLaren fan.

[HP]

Those who mention Sauber might confuse something. Sauber used a Ferrari engine, and HHF's comment was aimed at Schumacher and Ferrari more than at Sauber. HHF after all drove for Sauber, before and after 2001.

Originally posted by Frans
Yes it was Ferrari, who DOESN't remember?

They legalised traction control in the end, because the cheating never stopped!!!!

It was traction control, but they called it engine mapping. Clearly illegal, and an unfair advantage over the other teams..... but other teams had something likely as well, .... but it was Ferrari what took the contructors title back then, no? But not the drivers title,.... so the FIA decided not to punish the ones involved.

Nice try. But Max said it wasn't one of the first three teams. So that excludes those teams.

[wj_gibson]

Wasn't the F1 99 PlayStation game rumoured to be so well-programmed that it enabled users to speculate who was using traction control?

What about Williams? They were upper midfield in '99 and their car seemed pretty handy in the wet (in Ralf's hands at least).

[kar]

Originally posted by markpde

Having just read his autobiography, I could never believe Jackie Stewart would knowingly endorse cheating - and he would surely have wiped the floor with anyone who did it behind his back. If you don't believe that, then you don't understand the man.

Max will be loving this...

You could say the same about Ron Dennis - and his team cheated. Whether Jackie (or Ron) knew about it or not is up for debate.

[markpde]

Originally posted by kar


You could say the same about Ron Dennis - and his team cheated. Whether Jackie (or Ron) knew about it or not is up for debate.

Fair point - a case of, "Don't tell the boss, or else..." ?