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One team, different engine makes


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#1 Formula Once

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:11

I wonder: apart from Brabham in 1982 (Cosworth and BMW), Lotus in 1983 (Cosworth and Renault), Arrows in 1984 (Cosworth and BMW) and Tyrrell in 1985 (Cosworth and Renault), what other team(s) ran two different make (not type) of engines in a Grand Prix? Shadow perhaps (Cosworth and Matra)?

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#2 SpitfireJEJ

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:25

Didn't Team Lotus use BRM and Climax engines for Hill and Clark respectively in their ageing 33's at Monaco in 1967?

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:28

OTTOMH:

Eagle 1966 - Climax and Weslake. Lotus 1966 - Climax and BRM. Lotus 1967 - Climax, BRM and Ford. McLaren 1966 - Ford and Serenissima. McLaren 1969-70 - Ford and Alfa Romeo. March 1971 - Ford and Alfa Romeo.

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 12:00

Originally posted by Vitesse2
OTTOMH:

Eagle 1966 - Climax and Weslake. Lotus 1966 - Climax and BRM. Lotus 1967 - Climax, BRM and Ford. McLaren 1966 - Ford and Serenissima. McLaren 1969-70 - Ford and Alfa Romeo. March 1971 - Ford and Alfa Romeo.


Did BRM fall into that time frame as well?

Worth noting, of course, is that the 'Ford' engines in McLarens in '66 were nothing like those used later... and I'm quite sure that McLaren used more different engines during the course of the 3-litre NA/1.5-litre blown formulae than any other make.

#5 VDP

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 13:26

Ferrari and Ferrari Lancia

#6 JtP1

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 14:03

Originally posted by Vitesse2
OTTOMH:

Lotus 1967 - Climax, BRM and Ford.


The BRM engines were of two different types, so that makes 4 engines in a season and that must be close to a record.

#7 JtP1

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 14:07

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Did BRM fall into that time frame as well?

Worth noting, of course, is that the 'Ford' engines in McLarens in '66 were nothing like those used later... and I'm quite sure that McLaren used more different engines during the course of the 3-litre NA/1.5-litre blown formulae than any other make.


The first BRM V12 was actually installed in a McLaren and came close to winning its first race but for a flat battery, Canada 67. The V12 was viewed as a customer engine till BRM found out it was faster and cheaper than the H16.

#8 lustigson

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 16:06

Footwork (née Arrows) used that sorry excuse for an F1 engine built by Porsche, in 1991, as well as your usual suspect, the Ford DFR.

#9 canon1753

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 16:15

McLaren Ford and TAG in 83. Spirit Hart and Ford in 1984.

#10 2F-001

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 16:18

And another combination for Lotus: Cosworth and Pratt & Whitney in '71.

#11 Formula Once

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 17:06

Just to clarify: I was referring to one team with two or more cars running with different engines in the same Grand Prix. So, for example, the Spirit Hart/Cosworth is correct, but that, like some other examples mentioned here, was an engine switch for one or more races.

#12 fines

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 17:11

Peugeot in 1896, Panhard-Levassor and own engines, 2nd ACF Grand Prix. Even if the GP "tag" was affixed retrospectively, it was Grand Prix Racing in all but name.

#13 fines

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 17:14

Delage once ran De Dion engines and their own one in a Voiturette Grand Prix (1908), does that count?

#14 Formula Once

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 18:25

McLaren-Cosworth and -Alfa in several rounds in 1970 (or wasn't the de Adamich car entered by the team?)

#15 Macca

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 19:25

Brabham in 1966 with Repco and C-C at Monaco and Spa, and the 3rd car at Brands with C-C.

Lotus at Monza ran with BRM H16, BRM V8 and C-C V8.

How about Ferrari at Mexico City in '64 - all Ferrari engines, but 3 different versions; V6, V8 and Flat-12?


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#16 giacomo

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 20:34

I think Lola Haas were the last one to race different engines (Ford and Hart) in the very same Grand Prix.

#17 JtP1

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 20:56

Iirc, Brabham ran two engines for much of 67. Brabham using the 4 cam Repco and Hulme with much more reliability the original two cam.

#18 ray b

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 21:24

Originally posted by JtP1
Iirc, Brabham ran two engines for much of 67. Brabham using the 4 cam Repco and Hulme with much more reliability the original two cam.


no 4 cam repco's till 68
and by then Hulme moved on and Rindt was the second driver
and I think they only used the 4 camers in 68

now black jack did try some trick bits but they were on the SOHC motors in 67

#19 JtP1

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 22:58

Originally posted by ray b


no 4 cam repco's till 68
and by then Hulme moved on and Rindt was the second driver
and I think they only used the 4 camers in 68

now black jack did try some trick bits but they were on the SOHC motors in 67


I remember that JB used more technically advanced engines than Hulme and it didn't bother Hulme as he reckoned they would break.

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#20 AJB

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 22:41

At Monaco in 1966 Brabhams ran with the Repco V8 for JB and Climax FPF for Denny Hulme.
As Spitfire JEJ correctly stated, Lotus had 33s with BRM and Climax V8s for Hill and Clark respectively in 1967

#21 uechtel

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 17:14

I remember having heard, that in the early nineties one of the teams received Cosworth engines from Langford & Peck for one car and probably from Hart for the other driver. Think it could have been Tyrrell in 1990, but I did not find any mention of this in the available sources. Can anybody tell me the stroy again or are my memories misleading here?

#22 HistoryFan

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:33

McLaren 1969-70 - Ford and Alfa Romeo. March 1971 - Ford and Alfa Romeo.

 

What was the problem with the Alfa Romeo engines? Was Alfa Romeo full involved in that projects?


 



#23 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:59

Although it doesn't fit the "same Grand Prix" criterion, I thought it worth a reminder that McLaren also ran two different types of engines in 1968 - BRM V12 in the SAGP for Hulme, before the DFV was introduced in the M7A at the (real) ROC.



#24 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 13:09

What was the problem with the Alfa Romeo engines? Was Alfa Romeo full involved in that projects?

Alfa Romeo were very keen to get into F1. The V8 engine's claimed power output was a little below that of the DFV of the time, and was supposed to have better low-speed torque, which might have given it an advantage on the tighter circuits. However, the engines as delivered from Autodelta varied widely in power, torque and standard of preparation, so first McLaren and then March decided the engine was not worth persevering with.



#25 kayemod

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 14:28

Alfa Romeo were very keen to get into F1. The V8 engine's claimed power output was a little below that of the DFV of the time, and was supposed to have better low-speed torque, which might have given it an advantage on the tighter circuits. However, the engines as delivered from Autodelta varied widely in power, torque and standard of preparation, so first McLaren and then March decided the engine was not worth persevering with.

 

There were also suggestions at the time from some in the business that Autodelta's engines might have varied in cubic capacity as well. They performed at their best on home ground at Monza, though of course Italian officials and scrutineers have a reputation for absolute fairness and impartiality...



#26 Catalina Park

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 03:52

Don't forget that Brabham built a car to take the Alfa V8 and it had a bit of success.

#27 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:05

I remember having heard, that in the early nineties one of the teams received Cosworth engines from Langford & Peck for one car and probably from Hart for the other driver. Think it could have been Tyrrell in 1990, but I did not find any mention of this in the available sources. Can anybody tell me the stroy again or are my memories misleading here?

I feel a few teams in that era used a couple of suppliers. I guess chasing a bit more  power or durability from the DFV or just the volume of engines required to keep fresh. Remember no high km engines then. One or two races then freshen it up, and a couple in the truck in case of emergency



#28 Michael Ferner

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:25

Don't forget that Brabham built a car to take the Alfa V8 and it had a bit of success.


Really?

#29 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:14

On topic, a team usisng two different engines.

Alfa Romeo in Monza 1979? Giacomeilli in the V12 engined car and Brambilla in the flat-12 powered car?
Not a team that entered the full season, yet....


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#30 Catalina Park

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:54

Really?


Frank and Kevin drove it.

#31 Michael Ferner

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 10:14

Ah, yes... :blush:

#32 Duc-Man

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:30

I wonder: apart from Brabham in 1982 (Cosworth and BMW), Lotus in 1983 (Cosworth and Renault), Arrows in 1984 (Cosworth and BMW) and Tyrrell in 1985 (Cosworth and Renault), what other team(s) ran two different make (not type) of engines in a Grand Prix? Shadow perhaps (Cosworth and Matra)?

I'm not sure if I would count Shadow in. The different engines were in different car types as well. DN5 with the Ford and DN7 with the Matra engine.

Then came the '77 season and Shadow was changing aerodynamics back and forth like nuts but that is a whole different story.



#33 Tim Murray

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 12:05

I'm not sure if I would count Shadow in. The different engines were in different car types as well. DN5 with the Ford and DN7 with the Matra engine.

This applies to most of the other nominations as well - Brabham with the BT49-Cosworth and BT50-BMW, Lotus with the 92-Cosworth and 93T-Renault, etc. The OP only specifies running two different makes of engine in the same Grand Prix. I think Shadow definitely count.



#34 Catalina Park

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 07:01

Ah, yes... :blush:


I was clutching at straws a bit with the Mildren team using the Alfa engine but don't forget they also tried the reborn Maserati V12 before F1 did.