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Cooper/Cooper 'S' Dunlop wheels


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#1 Mark Learmonth

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 19:07

Hi guys,

As some of you might know i'm currently restoring a mk1 mini cooper, I'm at the painting stage but i'v came across a problem . I did plan on fitting mini lites but changed my mind to cooper s dunlop wheels . The problem I have is that I dont want to paint them Old English White as i understand they were painted for the "s" I'd rather paint them silver so my car remains a cooper and not a cooper "s" lookalike .

any opinions ?

does anyone know the right colour of silver dunlop used on the standard cooper wheels ?


[ tried the mini forums etc but there full of modifiers and boy racers and they dont appreciate the genuine look ]


mark :)

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#2 sterling49

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 19:23

I had a Mini Cooper 998 and fitted the wider slotted, steel Dunlop wheels, they came in silver originally, but I repainted them Olde English White to match the roof, as I had mine in BRG :up: Just a thought, when painting wheels, I used silver paint that came from any of the large manufacturers of the day, Fords usually came with silver wheels, rather than the early BMC habit of beige/fawn painted items. Dunlop steels are an excellent choice, they look great, especially with 165/70s fitted :up:

#3 Mark Learmonth

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 20:11

Originally posted by sterling49
I had a Mini Cooper 998 and fitted the wider slotted, steel Dunlop wheels, they came in silver originally, but I repainted them Olde English White to match the roof, as I had mine in BRG :up: Just a thought, when painting wheels, I used silver paint that came from any of the large manufacturers of the day, Fords usually came with silver wheels, rather than the early BMC habit of beige/fawn painted items. Dunlop steels are an excellent choice, they look great, especially with 165/70s fitted :up:


STERLING ,
the minilites are so common now and theres that many minis with them nowadays, the standard steels with new chrome hub caps look fantastic in my honest opinion . Id like to get the colour as close as i can to original so i'll keep hunting for the correct match .

#4 sterling49

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 20:15

Good choice, mine had the chrome hub caps, but I would have had Minilites had I the budget then ;)

They just looked great on Minis and Cortinas then, and were not so common. The Dunlop Alloys look good, as do original Mamba and Cosmic alloys, showing my age now :lol:

#5 dbw

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 20:24

i bought a set of "wide" steel mini wheels from bmc in 1968 and they came painted black....i painted them silver with schwinn silver lacquer bicycle paint in a spray can! ..these days the porsche restoration guys have great wheel silver available that looks totally period.

#6 Mark Learmonth

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 21:03

Originally posted by dbw
ithese days the porsche restoration guys have great wheel silver available that looks totally period.


dbw I think i know the colour as in the speedster and the spyder steel wheels ? ?

#7 S&M Minis

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 21:44

Mark,

"Modifiers and boy racers"! You are being too kind!

I think you would be okay painting the wheels white, that is, white would be technically correct. I have a 1962 Austin Cooper that I bought in 1967 and that car was original with white wheels. It may be a US-market thing, but every Austin Cooper (i.e., non-S) I have owned or seen had the white wheels as original. They were all 997 models; as far as I know the 998 was never marketed through the US dealers, although I'm sure there were exceptions. Ditto for the Morris Cooper, only the Austin seemed to be marketed here. The white wheel perception was driven home when some of the better quality color books on Minis started coming out in the late 70's. The pictures of Coopers with silver wheels actually struck me as odd looking, not ever having seen one like that in the flesh. Up till then I thought they all came with white wheels.

The pictured car was a painfully original 997 Cooper that I stumbled across in the employee parking lot at Bandimere Speedway (drag strip) near Denver about a year and a half ago. It had the US market fitments (LHD, red rear turn signal lenses, license plate light extension bracket) and white wheels. I left my business card and tried to track down the owner via the track, but with no luck. I was quite willing to work a trade for something more boy-racer from my collection. My great fear is that this very original non-S became an S-clone.


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For your original question, I checked my BMC parts manuals concerning wheel colors, with no success. The Cooper and S mechanical parts manual AKD 3509 lists both wheels (Cooper 3 1/2 and S 4 1/2) as being sold "in primer" with no indication of original colors. That's the way new S wheels arrived when I bought them in the late 60's, a gloss dark brown primer with a slight purple hue. The "Mini Saloon" body parts manual AKD 3503 lists all of the body and interior color permutations (including paint codes), but nothing about the wheels.

I went through a similar chore when I repainted some steel wheels for my MG 1000 Sedan, actually dragging an old wheel to the paint store. The final color was somewhere between silver and gunmetal, Dupont 43861-A, listed as Silver Metallic. It doesn't come out overly silver, and may be a little more muted than the original color. But I wasn't going for strict originality.

And Sterling49, there's nothing wrong with showing your age. I just went out to the garage and gazed upon steelies, Minilites (real and clones), Mamba's, Revolutions, GTs, and JA Pierce wheels - and not a single one larger than 10 inch diameter!

#8 Mark Learmonth

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 22:16

Randy ,

thanks for all that knowledge and the pictures ! that mini in the pictures is a great example of original! sadly cars like that in this country are sadly not on the road [ if they even get to that age without a resto of some sort]

my steel wheels are O E W at present but I dont think they will look right with the black roof ? ? ? thats why i was thinking silver , but then again id rather white if it that were correct .....

I cant find a silvered wheeled cooper anywhere on the net ! there all white so may be that is correct ? who knows :lol:

#9 275 GTB-4

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 22:31

Originally posted by Mark Learmonth
Randy ,

thanks for all that knowledge and the pictures ! that mini in the pictures is a great example of original! sadly cars like that in this country are sadly not on the road [ if they even get to that age without a resto of some sort]

my steel wheels are O E W at present but I dont think they will look right with the black roof ? ? ? thats why i was thinking silver , but then again id rather white if it that were correct .....

I cant find a silvered wheeled cooper anywhere on the net ! there all white so may be that is correct ? who knows :lol:


Ya just gotta know where ta look!

Silver Birch Metallic is the colour. Dulux book lists two different Silver Birch Metallic.

Leyland 1964 Trim: Silver Birch Met 06968
Leyland 1971/72 Trim: Silver Birch Met 13260

#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 22:32

I'm pretty sure they were silver here...

Cooper S at least. They wouldn't have got away with white wheels on a Police car.

#11 S&M Minis

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 23:58

Mark,

I agree, silver wheels may look better with the black roof. Coopers sold in the US were mostly Black over Tartan Red and OEW over Surf Blue (I believe that's what the turquoise shade was called, like the picture I posted previously). My car was originally the latter color with OEW wheels. The Coopers had full wheel covers so the wheel color wasn't obvious. Based on your comment, I can't mentally picture a Black/Red Cooper with OEW wheels, will have to dig into the photo archives.

US market S's were mostly OEW over Almond Green, Black over Red, and a few Black over OEW. Friends of mine had OEW/Green and Black/OEW models from new, both with OEW wheels. The Black/Red S tested by Road & Track in 1966 had OEW wheels. (They are OEW, it lost something in the scanner.) I have seen S's with silver wheels from new (OEW over Island Blue) but I don't recall if thatw as a US market car. Thanks to GTB-4 you now have both colors; go with what you like!

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#12 JtP1

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 01:39

There are basically 3 std wheels for Cooper and CooperS

If a Mk1 std Cooper or S, the wheels are old English white. The silver came later

Cooper Mk1 997/998 came with the std 3 1/2" rim as fitted to the 850 mini.

The Cooper S came originally with a 3 1/2" wheel, it was basically a std 850 mini wheel with the outer rim turned round, but with a much stronger centre and welded all the way round (no slots where the centre joined the rim). This allowed the wheel stud flange to be further out for the rim to clear the S caliper. The 4 1/2" was an option from the start, but initially only supplied with racing tyres.

The S rim will not fit properly on a std mini or Cooper. They hit the trailing arms at the rear, hence the s rear drum. On the front, they are too far in on the drums and also hit the caliper on a disc setup.

Later on, the 4 1/2" wheel became std on the S, mostly for homologation purposes. Around the same time, Dunlop who made the wheels started producing a wheel comprising the S centre, but with the rim reversed so it cleared the suspension on a drum braked car, hence the term "reversed rim". Most people had thrown the 997/998 Cooper discs away by then and used the twin leading shoe drums if they could not find a set of S discs.

If you bought new 4 1/2" S wheels from the dealer's stores, they came in dark brown primer.

#13 JtP1

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 03:54

Originally posted by S&M Minis
My apologies for drifting way off the original question of wheel color, but my experience with non-S Coopers does not fully match JtP1's info. I have never encountered a 3 1/2 inch S rim that didn't have the cooling slots (actually perfectly round holes), and 4 1/2 inch S wheels will fit standard Cooper front hubs without spacers and not foul the calipers. Speedwell and others made spacers for fitting S wheels to Cooper front hubs, but they were intended to correct the front track measurement rather than fouling. I used the Speedwell spacers for a time but decided the benefit didn't offset other problems with them. I can't comment on S wheels on drum brakes since I never found even the TLS drums to be better than properly maintained Cooper discs. Emphasis on properly maintained, and preferrably with 998 calipers. Yes, most everything about the S was better, but the standard Cooper wasn't as bad as most people will tell you. Again, based on my experience of over 100K street miles and 20 years of track racing 997 Coopers. And with recognition that there's probably a defective gene that causes me to sell off the Cooper S's and hang onto the 997's!

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Back to Mark's original line of questioning, I look forward to seeing pictures of your Cooper when finished!


What I was meaning re the slots, was that the S wheel has a continous rim to centre contact, not the 4 attachment contact points with at the time discussed was two rivets per point. The slots I was describing were the spaces between the contact points. Of course the S has its 8 holes, but that is different.

The 3 1/2" S wheel will definately not fit a 997 Cooper disc setup. I don't know of anyone who ever tried fitting 4 1/2" wheels to Cooper discs because by that time in the UK everyone had thrown them away and fitted twin leading shoe drums if the finance didn't reach to S discs.


The 4 1/2" wheel fits on the front no problem with drums of course, but it does reduce the track and I always considered it affected the handling. Seemed to understeer more and it does leave to inside of the tyre very near the shock absorber.

When the Cooper came out, the Super Deluxe trimmed shell was used for the car, hence the being referred to as Soopers and Cupers. These came at that time in two tone paint, the basic factory paint jobs were green, gray or blue with an OEW roof and red or white with a black roof.

#14 S&M Minis

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 04:08

The observation about slots versus holes is accurate, I misunderstood what was being described. My previous post has been deleted; it's not pertinent to this thread and I can't speak to what has been done by everyone on this side of the pond.

Regards,

#15 Catalina Park

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 07:04

As Mick (275 GTB-4) and Ray have hinted all Australian made Mini Cooper S came with silver wheels, actually at that stage all Australian BMC cars came with silver wheels. The colour was called Silver Birch Metallic. I don't know if you could get it mixed over there but it is available down here.

#16 doc knutsen

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 09:55

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I'm pretty sure they were silver here...

Cooper S at least. They wouldn't have got away with white wheels on a Police car.


The Cooper came with plain steel wheels, just like the rest of the basic Min range. On the cars delivered in Scandinavia, the wheels were finished in white (OEW, I think) whereas a spare rim purchased from the importers would come in a semi-gloss brown primer.
The Cooper S came with very different rims, with holes drilled in them and in 3.5 or 4.5 in rim widths. A very popular mod for them was the reverse rim 4.5 in Cooper S wheel, which looked good on all the more humble models. On the S, which had a wider track with the proper front disc brakes, and the integral-spacer rear brake drums, these wheels would require wheel arch extensions while an 850/998 or Cooper model would just get by without them. These rims always seemed to come in silver paint finish.

#17 Catalina Park

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 10:02

Here is a Cooper S with silver wheels. You have to admit that they look nice.

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#18 RTH

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 11:55

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1972 Thruxton reverse rims

#19 sterling49

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 13:07

That looks like BRG Richard, is it? Always looked good with the white roof :up: The earlier photo posted by S&M Minis show the Mini 997D but it looks to me as if it has the "ordinary" Austin Seven grille, I could be wrong, or maybe they were different stateside?

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#20 S&M Minis

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 15:14

Sterling49,

The 997 DS car (the S for D-Sedan is hidden behind the black car, that was the up-to-one-liter SCCA sedan class in the 1960's) does indeed have a wavy-bar 850 grille, the only decent grille I had available at the time. It was later replaced with the proper straight-bar Austin-Cooper grille. I thought about mentioning that in the original post, but figured no one would notice! The only US-spec detail on the front was clear turn signal lenses with clear bulbs; no "colored" turn signals allowed!

Doc Knutsen makes a good point about finding the wheel and hub combination that fits best. Using S-offset wheels on standard Cooper front hubs (or drum brakes) allows a bit more wheel and tire without the need for fender flares. The tire tread had to be under the stock fender line for several groups I raced with, and I just liked the non-flare look better. Although not steel wheels, both cars pictured have S-offset, 5-inch wide rims; 145 section tires on #361 and 165 on 997 with no flares needed. Both are basically silver colored, which works well with pretty much any body color.

The 997 car is Connaught (Sp?) Green, a BMC color, the closest I could get to the "Cooper" BRG at the time I painted the car.

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#21 RS2000

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 15:15

This seems to have got extremely complicated. All Cooper and S came with OEW wheels until at least 1968 if not later? The Mk3 S had silver wheels as standard but I don't recall all Mk2 Coopers and Ss having them initially.
I'm also confused by references to Dunlop steel wheels implied as being original fit. Surely Rubery Owen made all the standard wheels. The works rally team were painting wheels silver from some point in 64 (after the Monte)?
I don't recall anyone changing Cooper discs for twin leading shoe drums - and I moved in Mini circles in period where almost everyone was road rallying in some form even if not stage rallying. I could get through a set of DS11 pads with ordinary Cooper brakes by the halfway halt of most road rallies and I don't recall anyone with drums doing any better with VG95 linings.
The main advantage of the small Cooper discs was that changing pads was easier than changing linings. I co-drove a 998 Mini on Internationals just before S discs were homologated for it in Gp2 and adjusting the fronts properly in the heat of battle was a total pain.
The 998 Cooper was only homologated with hydrolastic suspension and of course Cooper discs. The 998 Mini was homologated with both dry and wet suspension and under Gp2 could be modified engine-wise to exactly the same extent as a Cooper, so was a better choice. (In Gp1 the Cooper was obviously better with its standard spec - Russell Brookes famously buying one for about £200 and winning the class on the Scottish then selling it for the same).
Bodywork, including new complete shells, came in the brown "satin" primer mentioned for wheels above.

#22 JtP1

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 23:39

RS 2000.
Dunlop made the 4.5" wheels and thus the reverse rims. Std mini 3.5" wheels are stamped RO and are thicker than the original up to 63 wheels which were made by iirc Dunlop, these being the ones that suffered failure around the stud holes. Dunlop swapped the rim round to create the reverse rim and initially marketed them themselves.

The 998 discs were better than the 997 discs, but all theory of the time rated the twin leading shoes better than either. I bought a TLS set of a wrecked car, but never fitted them as I got my hands on an S. I sold them to a car club member to replace his Cooper discs. Did the 998 Cooper have a servo, an item missing from the 997 which had the brake intensifier valve?

#23 Mistron

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 00:01

Originally posted by Mark Learmonth



[ tried the mini forums etc but there full of modifiers and boy racers and they dont appreciate the genuine look ]


mark :)


I'd suggest you join

http://www.atfreefor...?mforum=mk1mark

It's a mini forum for 'grown ups' who don't feel the need to paint their car metalic orange and fit a body kit and a stupid stereo that they'll never hear over the whine of the transfer gears!

Though not exclusively so, the Mk1 forum does of course have a strong bias to cars with the door hinges on the outside! there is also a leaning towards 'period' tuning, and a lot of the posters race Mk1s in Historics around the world.

I think at least one or two are members of TNF as well.

there are a couple of threads there specifically on cooper wheels

Anyhow, to your question:

As to a complete guide to originality, 'Parnell's guide to originality will probably have paint codes. I'll have a look tomorrow

The basic cooper had 'full' wheel trims (as fitted to the 850) as standard, hence it's hard to see the wheel colour in pictures, but my memory is that ALL Mini wheels were white for Mk1 &2, and silver from Mk3 onwards. I may be wrong though

If you want 's' wheels, but retaining the look of the non 's' cooper, have you tried fitting the full wheel trims to the 4.5 'S' rim? I've never tried, but if they fit that would give you the correct 'look', though negating the effect of the holes in the rim

I'd go with silver with a red car, though I find the white turns to grey with brake dust pretty quick if you are enjoying it properly!

Oh, and I have fitted the Minisport alloy version of the original 4.5" cooper steel wheels (not the reverse rims that you need arches for) to my '64 car with 7.5" discs. They are great, and cheaper than buying a set of the original steels (very dear now) or even the reproduced steels. They come in either silver or OEW.

#24 275 GTB-4

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 00:02

Originally posted by RS2000
This seems to have got extremely complicated.

Bodywork, including new complete shells, came in the brown "satin" primer mentioned for wheels above.


possibly similar to the paint on these rally car wheels at Gaydon...

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PS I can easily arrange hundreds of Aussie twin leading front shoe owners who would die to have a set of cast-off 7.5" disk brake hubs from Scotland!!

#25 S&M Minis

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 00:57

Staying with Mark's original thread, here's a couple variations of the "look" he's talking about.

Firestone race tires on 4 1/2 inch S rims on my 997 Cooper in 1969. The bulgy sidewalls of the Firestones caused clearance problems even with spacers and their grip was less than stellar. I later went to Goodyear Blue Streaks, much better grip and no clearance problems even without spacers on the front. And the tire tread was back inside the stock fender line, a requirement of the group I autocrossed the car with at the time. The wheel centers are the original primer color with only the rims painted spray-can silver. This color combo looked better without the hub caps. I've never been too keen on the silver wheels and hub caps because it looks like too much of the same, no contrast. Purely personal prference. (To head off the eagle-eyed ones like Sterling49, yes, those are not Cooper S hub caps. I couldn't afford new ones so cut the centers out of the original Austin Cooper full wheel covers. I now wish I hadn't mollested them like that!)

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The same car in 1980 with the classic S wheel and hub cap combo in 1980. Of course everything is black. Although the car and trailer now generally run on "GT" brand aluminum wheels (as in the racing pic from 1984), I ocassionally put the steelies and hub caps back on for shows. Pick a color and go for it, Mark.

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To add one more permutation, here's an Austin Cooper-clone I built to a customers spec in 1987. The wheels are 850 Mini with the centers reversed and rim widened to 6 inches; manufacture unknown. I bought this as an unfinished boy racer project and it originally had Super-Minifin drums with integral 3/4" spacer on all four corners; way too wide for a street car. As shown it has standard Minifins (no spacer), TLS front brakes and a 998 Cooper engine and trans. I can't find a picture of it with the S hub caps fitted, but it was just as nice as the picture posted by RTH. I did convince the customer that the car would be unique without the S emplems.

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Finally, just to show that you can stuff a whole lot of tire under the stock fender, here's Dunlop CR-70's on 5 inch rims and the wider-track Cooper S front brakes. The picture is at the the 1993 Mini-Sprite Challenge race at Sears Point on Thanksgiving weekend, qualified fourth on time and second Mini out of 30-odd entries. So much for the "have to have 6 inch rims" critics. They cancelled the race on Sunday because it was raining! A 1,200 mile tow each way with several hundred miles of snow to get Californicated! Even my wife, a California native thought they had become way to soft.

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Concerning Cooper discs, I'm on-board with RS2000, but from a track racing standpoint. The drum brakes, even later TLS versions that I tried were not necessarily better than properly maintained standard Cooper discs. Emphasis on properly maintained. Clapped out Cooper discs were virtually worthless, possibly the source of what might have become an urban legend. Minis with TLS drums were never sold in the US and I had to source them out of Canada for some project cars that started with single leading shoe drums. Given their scarcity here, I doubt that many US drivers tried the TLS set-up.

Brake intensifiers were fitted on the early 997 Coopers only. They apparently didn't help and were dropped from the 997 Cooper by the time it reached the US market. I have never seen an intensifier in the flesh. Neither the 997 or 998 Coopers had brake boosters. The 997 and 998 calipers are the same except for the size and shape of the pads; i.e., identical piston bore, etc. The 998 calipers work much better, less pedal pressure required, and quality pads are easier to find. The 997 master cylinder had a smaller bore than the S (0.625 vs 0.70 IIRC) to provide more wheel cylinder pressure. The trade-off was more pedal travel that was only a problem if you didn't keep things adjusted. I'm not sure what the master cylinder bore was for the 998 Cooper. The 997 and 998 discs (rotors) are identical. The combination that worked for me was 998 calipers, Mintex racing pads, standard rear linings, and 997 master cylinder. The #997 car wieighs a bit over 1,200 pounds (closer to 1,450 with me on board) with a max. velocity of about 95 mph on a 997 with a 4.33 final drive. The 165 Yokohomas were the limiting factor with this combination, and the car easily ran with the top third of the S's. If you went up significantly on speed or weight overheating of the rotors would probably be an issue. The rallying that RS2000 described would probably be more demanding of the brakes given the short nature of our races; 15 to 25 minute sprints.

#26 sterling49

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 11:34

Originally posted by S&M Minis

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Nice shot! I always like Minis raced in period with the "works" Gp 2 narrow arches, filled with smoking Minilites on full lock trying to transmit the 130 bhp, John Rhodes was always fantastic to watch, the rear of the car usually came into view first :clap:

#27 RTH

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 11:59

This was me at Brands in 1972 Mini Se7en formula car we used reverse rim 4 1/2 " with either CR70 dry or CR 65 wet

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Road car I built for my sister in 1970 with the same sized wheels

#28 RS2000

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 12:23

Originally posted by sterling49
Nice shot! I always like Minis raced in period with the "works" Gp 2 narrow arches, filled with smoking Minilites on full lock trying to transmit the 130 bhp, John Rhodes was always fantastic to watch, the rear of the car usually came into view first :clap:


The CCC racers used a unique black-painted (Dunlop?) wheel? Can't recall if Minilites later (here at 66 October Brands) Agree much nicer looking with the early "GP2"-type arches in Gp5.
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Going back to an earlier question, yes a standard Mini or Cooper full width chrome wheel trim will fit on to a Cooper S 4.5J wheel but not sure about a 3.5J because of the offset, or rather inset.

#29 doc knutsen

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 14:43

Originally posted by RS2000


The CCC racers used a unique black-painted (Dunlop?) wheel? Can't recall if Minilites later (here at 66 October Brands) Agree much nicer looking with the early "GP2"-type arches in Gp5.


The works Cooper-type wheels are again available to-day, known amongst the Historic Mini Racing fraternity as the "Rose Petal" rims. Cast from a magnesium alloy, I am told, and featuring dimensions like the original "S" 4.5 in steel rims, needing no wheel arch extensions.

These wheels are featured on my son Matt's friend and class rival Edwin Solheim's FIA Period F Cooper S 1071.
This car is very special, having been built as a racing Mini from new in 1964, bought by Lennart Lystad of Stroemstad in Sweden. The car enjoyed a long and very varied Scandinavian racing career, but ending up somewhat butchered after numerous crashes, and "Special Saloon-type" mods, when Edwin located it in 2000. He had it stripped, and the original shell needed new front wings and A-panels,as well as a lot of localized repair, involving yrs trly and my trusty Tig. So it does use its original shell. Having spent some three years on its rejuvenation, Ed bought a 1071 S engine and s/c box from Richard Longman and the car re-appeared absolutely pristine, in its original mint green livery.
And it was quick out of the box, too...despite the Longman mill stuffing a small end bolt well into a cylinder wall
after only three races. A right little gem in Historic saloons, this car has a continual racing history in this neck of the woods, and apparently it was never, ever road licenced, having been a dedicated racer from day one.

#30 sterling49

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 14:49

Any photos Doc? Sounds fabulous :up:

#31 Mark Learmonth

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 17:51

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


Ya just gotta know where ta look!

Silver Birch Metallic is the colour. Dulux book lists two different Silver Birch Metallic.

Leyland 1964 Trim: Silver Birch Met 06968
Leyland 1971/72 Trim: Silver Birch Met 13260


275 GTB-4 ,

thats great !!! thanks you , I just wasnt sure if they came from the wheel manufacturer painted and thats why I couldnt find the correct colour ...

Iv got a set of those reverse rims also ... but they dont sit flush unless you have wheel arch extensions.

I think im going for the silver in colour .

#32 JtP1

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 17:56

Originally posted by RTH
This was me at Brands in 1972 Mini Se7en formula car we used reverse rim 4 1/2 " with either CR70 dry or CR 65 wet

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I slightly curious, but why are you running a clubman front, was it not a bit draggy?

I take it that you are running 4.5" s wheels on the front with S discs and 4.52 reverse rims on the back with std mini drums. CR70s, are they not a bit horrible to drive on, but a necessary evil to survive a dry race.

#33 Mark Learmonth

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 19:09

heres another set iv got . Thye have the dunlop arrow shaped logo embosed on them but not sure what they are , there a reverse rim to my knowledge .

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stick out to far and iv been using them to roll the car back an forth when working on the resto :|

are these just cheap remakes ? or are they worth ebaying? :lol:

#34 RTH

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 19:35

Originally posted by JtP1



I slightly curious, but why are you running a clubman front, was it not a bit draggy?

I take it that you are running 4.5" s wheels on the front with S discs and 4.52 reverse rims on the back with std mini drums. CR70s, are they not a bit horrible to drive on, but a necessary evil to survive a dry race.


Yes right on all fronts, it was just to be a bit different at the time. The rears had aluminium MiniFins

#35 Mark Learmonth

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 20:51

Originally posted by Mistron


I'd suggest you join

http://www.atfreefor...?mforum=mk1mark

It's a mini forum for 'grown ups' who don't feel the need to paint their car metalic orange and fit a body kit and a stupid stereo that they'll never hear over the whine of the transfer gears!

Though not exclusively so, the Mk1 forum does of course have a strong bias to cars with the door hinges on the outside! there is also a leaning towards 'period' tuning, and a lot of the posters race Mk1s in Historics around the world.
.


Mistron ,

im on there as T.Crown forgot all about that forum . cheers

#36 JtP1

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 21:20

Originally posted by RTH

Yes right on all fronts, it was just to be a bit different at the time. The rears had aluminium MiniFins


so you had the early minfins without the spacer, hence the reverse rims. All is revealed.

Which was the last Brands meeting you did in 72?

#37 doc knutsen

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 21:42

Originally posted by sterling49
Any photos Doc? Sounds fabulous :up:


Mais certainement, Sir! Try:

www.historisk-racing.no/?ItemID=1114

This is the feature on Ed and his car, from the site of Historisk Racing Norge, the Norwegian Historic Racing club. The pic showing Ed kerb-hopping features the rose petal mag rims on the rear only, as the fronts were rubbing on the front hub flange in qualifying, and he was lent a pair of "Minilites" by my son Matthew.
The other pics show the car in its initial guise, with gold painted alu Minilites, when Ed realised the mag rose petal rims would save 1.2 kilogrammes per corner he just had to have those ;)

#38 275 GTB-4

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 23:10

Originally posted by Mark Learmonth

[ tried the mini forums etc but there full of modifiers and boy racers and they dont appreciate the genuine look ]

mark :)


Harking back to the original question...these people are helpful by all accounts

http://www.minicoope...gisters/mk1.htm

#39 2Bob

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 00:24

Just to show an Australian Cooper S from period (1970 I think) with the previously mentioned Firestone racing tyres on (I think) 5 1/2" wheels - widened standard Cooper S ones. Painted black to match the iridescent baby pink (and gey undercoat at the time of the picture) body. Not a standard colour at the time but the sponsor liked it. Just to stop the Oz experts wondering, it was an Oz Cooper S (1967) but with earlier Cooper doors and persplex sliding windows - all other windows except windscreen were persplex too. Still had hydrolastic suspension but blocked off front to rear and heavy duty roll bars (hence the 2 wheeling?). Original wheels were silver (and body blue with white roof). Front flares were aftermarket bolt ons while rear were built in as part of the panel beater paint change scheme!


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It ended up (pun intended) a slightly nicer colour of dark red with gold roof and pinstriping and smarter sign writing but that didn't help much. Unfortunately that was the end of it as it was running a borrowed motor and gearbox as we had broken a crankshaft at the previous meeting. Managed to salvage the gear box and slippery diff to sell to pay off the last hire purchase payments (car was bought as a road car but sort of ended up being pretty well undrivable on the road and trailered to race meetings over the next 3 years).

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This car was raced under Australian Touring car rules of the time (1968 to 1971) with rose jointed suspension etc which wouldn't be allowed now under Oz Group N these days - doesn't make sense to me.

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#40 sterling49

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 00:51

Originally posted by doc knutsen


Mais certainement, Sir! Try:

www.historisk-racing.no/?ItemID=1114

This is the feature on Ed and his car, from the site of Historisk Racing Norge, the Norwegian Historic Racing club. The pic showing Ed kerb-hopping features the rose petal mag rims on the rear only, as the fronts were rubbing on the front hub flange in qualifying, and he was lent a pair of "Minilites" by my son Matthew.
The other pics show the car in its initial guise, with gold painted alu Minilites, when Ed realised the mag rose petal rims would save 1.2 kilogrammes per corner he just had to have those ;)


Lovely photos Doc, I remember the colour well,makes a change from the modern sea of silver or black cars.

#41 275 GTB-4

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:35

You could always turn Japanese Mark :up:

Japanese S copies, identical dimensions as standard S rims, and are only designed to fit over 7.5" disks. They are made by 'Griffin'

http://members.iinet...../alloyswheel (4).JPG

[cut and paste entire expression into your browser line]

#42 Catalina Park

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:43

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
You could always turn Japanese Mark :up:

Japanese S copies, identical dimensions as standard S rims, and are only designed to fit over 7.5" disks. They are made by 'Griffin'

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Does this help?

#43 Mistron

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:48

when you say 'standard' S rims - do you mean 4.5 or 3.5 rims?

If they are 4.5, you can get them in the UK from Minisport.

the problem with 3.5" rims is getting decent tyres. It's hard enough getting them for 4.5" rims.

I have Yoko A008s on my car, pretty much the best alrounder, and pretty cheap too!

#44 RTH

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 11:32

posted by Sterling 49


Brands Hatch paddock summer 2008

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Sterling

#45 Mark Learmonth

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 14:05

Originally posted by Mistron
when you say 'standard' S rims - do you mean 4.5 or 3.5 rims?

If they are 4.5, you can get them in the UK from Minisport.

the problem with 3.5" rims is getting decent tyres. It's hard enough getting them for 4.5" rims.

I have Yoko A008s on my car, pretty much the best alrounder, and pretty cheap too!


I think people get a bit carried away with replies on here ....... I have wheels I was only interested in the original colour for cooper wheels . this post has ran away from the original question

275 gtb was helpfull and gave me this paint code Silver Birch Met 06968 which is correct

thanks everyone

#46 S&M Minis

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 15:20

Mark has his answer and the thread has a life of its own! I didn't know you could put the standard Cooper wheel cover on an S wheel, I'm not sure why I would want to, but 42 years into this hobby I have learned something new. And to me, learning something new makes highjacking a thread worth it.

Given the discussion of how to identify the different wheels, it was time for hands-on research. There's no claim that this is definitive, just what I could put my hands on yesterday afternoon in the garage.

First, going through old publications such as the Clive Trickey/Speedsport books and period catalogs like V.W. Derrington, the term "Dunlop wheels" only seems to apply to the reversed rim S wheels. Standard S rims seemed to be always referred to as just that, with no manufacture called out. That seems like the consensus already reached here. I always remembered the S wheels as having the marking "LP883", and on my search yesterday determined that that is the only marking they have. This included wheels I bought new and used, and ones that were original equipment on the cars. No manufactures mark such as RO. I believe there was an earlier post stating the Dunlop wheels have an arrow marking.

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The early 850 wheels (at least the 8 or 10 of them that I have) do have the RO marking (Rubery Owen makes great sense, I had never made that connection, so learned something else here) as well as various other markings. The latter were most commonly N20 or N6Y on my collection. There are variations of the RO, ocassionally in a circle, but all of mine have it. The flange of the pictured wheel was welded to the rim by me, the weld bead is not original manufacture.

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The later thick-flange 3 1/2 inch wheels from my 997 Cooper have the RO plus the part number 21A881 (verified as the BMC part number at the time) plus other markings that vary from wheel to wheel. The center is resistance welded to the rim. Did they possibly include the part number to make life easier for scrutineers?

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I also came across a pair of these belt-and-braces oddballs that I can't tie to any particular car in the collection. They have the thick center, resistance welded connection plus a single rivit, and absolutely no markings. Any ideas?

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It also came to light that the early 850 wheels have a much larger opening in the slot than the later wheels, something I never noticed before.

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How about a set of Boy-Racer Death-Wish rims from a 1960 850 I acquired. Take a thin flange wheel and drill some pseudo-S holes in it! Edit: The elongated mounting holes are a bonus feature; Russian Roulette with five chambers loaded.

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Will close with a shot for Sterling; it has big flares and the tires aren't smoking, but I was just abusing the crap out of them. It was the first time I drove this car that the owner (I now drive other people's cars) put together from his stash of good stuff. Probably 140 hp at sea level, six speed dog box, slick tires that were too wide and too tall but very sticky, and springs way too stiff. It would tire hop out of the corners (other drivers said there was daylight under both front wheels), I gave up on trying to focus my eyes, it broke the front subframe mounting bolts, and the front tires lasted about an hour. Possibly the quickest Mini I ever drove, definately the most brutal. When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail! We later sorted out the suspension and went to a legal vintage racing setup of 1293, four speed and treaded tires - still a quick car but not as entertaining.

maybe we need a thyread on Mini tire abuse.

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#47 Mark Learmonth

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 16:10

I had a set of early 850 wheels when i first got the car around 3/4 years ago and burst the rim right off at 70 mph welds broke and nearly killed me . :down:

My cooper s wheels are welded differently so im a bit more confident .

#48 S&M Minis

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 16:32

Mark,

Did the wheel fail while you were going straight or under cornering load? I always thought the problem was solely with side loading, but some of the previous comments make me now think otherwise. My reason for asking, the yellow wheels are for a Bonneville racing (straight line) Mini where narrow rims are better. If you get side loading you are out of control. The thin flange wheels are for the rear and the thick flanges for the front. They were sandblasted and crack tested, but if they're really that suspect even in a straight line I'll find some substitutes.

#49 Mark Learmonth

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 17:18

Originally posted by S&M Minis
Mark,

Did the wheel fail while you were going straight or under cornering load? I always thought the problem was solely with side loading, but some of the previous comments make me now think otherwise. My reason for asking, the yellow wheels are for a Bonneville racing (straight line) Mini where narrow rims are better. If you get side loading you are out of control. The thin flange wheels are for the rear and the thick flanges for the front. They were sandblasted and crack tested, but if they're really that suspect even in a straight line I'll find some substitutes.


I was going a bit hard , it was on a large roundabout and i was seeing how fast it would go self inflicted but also surprising.

it was under a hell of a load but I had read that it used to happen and didnt think it would happen to me .

#50 JtP1

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 21:36

Originally posted by Mark Learmonth


I think people get a bit carried away with replies on here ....... I have wheels I was only interested in the original colour for cooper wheels . this post has ran away from the original question

275 gtb was helpfull and gave me this paint code Silver Birch Met 06968 which is correct

thanks everyone



The point is Mark, that your 997 cooper was made prior to mid 64 and thus came with OEW wheels. The various reasons for dropping the 997 was that the crank production machinery was required for 1100 production and as the 998 already existed from the Elf/ Hornet and was a stronger engine. The 998 block was also the same as the 1100 with different pistons. So the simple answer was to drop the 997.

A post mentioned hub caps. Ss always came with the small hubcap from the basic mini and van range.