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1925 Guipzcoa Touring Car Grand Prix


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#1 Simon Davis

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 14:50

Seasons Greetings to all on TNF.

I would appreciate the assistance of any Spanish speakers on TNF. I have been looking into the 1925 Guipúzcoa Touring Car Grand Prix which was held at the Lasarte circuit in San Sebastian. I have recently acquired a copy of the Spanish book 'Circuito de Lasarte - Memorias de una pasión' by Angel Elberdin. Can anyone translate the following extracts for me? What I can gather is that Rudi Caracciola experienced a problem with a wheel/tyre? and benefitted from the generous assistance of Sabipa.

Laly, los hermanos Danielli y Caracciola comandan el resto de categories, peligrando el Mercedes su clasificación por un feroz Sabipa.

Cerrada la noche, se produce un hecho insólito. El corridor Caracciola, desprovisto de rueda de repuesto, tiene problemas en un neumático de la dirección, viéndose obligado a la retirada. El francés Sabipa, perfecto amateur, enterado del problema y en un rasgo que le honra, se detiene sin vacilar a ceder a su más directo contrincante la rueda que lleva de recambio en medio de estruendosos aplausos.

Mayor fortuna para Laly, que resulta ileso del volquete sufrido en Bazcardo poco antes de retirarse Foresti y Caracciola por sendas pannes.


Did Caracciola retire from the race? If not, does anyone have details of his final placing, the distance covered in the 12 hours and his average speed?

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 17:46

Not a translation, but something I prepared earlier

As part of the big San Sebastian festival in Spain, a 12hr production-car handicap called the Gran Premio Guipuzcoa (but more usually known as the Spanish Touring Car GP) was run, taking place during the week between the European and Spanish GPs.
The race was historically significant in that it marked the first-ever international race appearance of Mercedes-Benz cars, for the two German makes had combined only the previous month. Three new six-cylinder 6246cc 24/100K models were entered, for Christian Werner/Willy Walb, Rudolf Caracciola/Kuhnle and Otto Merz/Walter Gärtner. They were the last cars away, with 15 minutes to catch on the 3.8-litre Peugeots and a total of 1½ hours on the 1100s.
After three hours the 1100s were still in the first three places, followed by the 2-litre machinery. Boillot in the best of the Peugeots was only 12th, but nevertheless still well clear of the three Mercedes-Benzes. The German cars were in fact performing dismally, neither their tyres nor their brakes being up to the demands of such an event.
The leading positions were the same at half-distance, but what was significant was that the little Chenard-Walcker tanks were actually increasing their lead over the OMs, which were in turn pulling away from the Mercedes entries. The fancied Laly/Flohot Ariès retired with a broken axle.
At the end Léonard/Manso de Zuniga and Lagache/Pisart duly took the first two places in their little tanks, the first of which was supercharged. The OM was third and then came the Peugeots of Boillot/Serre and Rigal/Letailleur, followed by Merz/Gärtner and Caracciola/Huhnle in the big Mercedes, with the third German entry still down in tenth place.

No mention of Sabipa, sorry

#3 Carles Bosch

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 19:16

Simon, here you'll find a rough translation to english:



Laly, the Danielli brothers and Caracciola lead the rest of categories, but the Mercedes drivers sees his position threatened by a ferocious Sabipa.

Well in the dark night, an unusual fact takes place. The driver Caracciola, devoid of supply wheel, has problems with a front tire, forcing him to abandon the race. Then, the frenchman Sabipa, pure amateur, knowing about Caracciola's problem and in a feature that honors him, stops without hesitating to leaving his replacement wheel to his more direct opponent in the middle of a thunderous ovation.

More lucky was Laly, who resulted unharmed of a roll-over in Bazcardo moments before Foresti and Caracciola were forced to abandon the race due to mechanical failures.



Carles.

#4 Marc Ceulemans

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 19:34

Not a translation, but something I prepared earlier As part of the big San Sebastian festival in Spain, a 12hr production-car handicap called the Gran Premio Guipuzcoa (but more usually known as the Spanish Touring Car GP) was run, taking place during the week between the European and Spanish GPs. The race was historically significant in that it marked the first-ever international race appearance of Mercedes-Benz cars, for the two German makes had combined only the previous month. Three new six-cylinder 6246cc 24/100K models were entered, for Christian Werner/Willy Walb, Rudolf Caracciola/Kuhnle and Otto Merz/Walter Gärtner. They were the last cars away, with 15 minutes to catch on the 3.8-litre Peugeots and a total of 1½ hours on the 1100s. After three hours the 1100s were still in the first three places, followed by the 2-litre machinery. Boillot in the best of the Peugeots was only 12th, but nevertheless still well clear of the three Mercedes-Benzes. The German cars were in fact performing dismally, neither their tyres nor their brakes being up to the demands of such an event. The leading positions were the same at half-distance, but what was significant was that the little Chenard-Walcker tanks were actually increasing their lead over the OMs, which were in turn pulling away from the Mercedes entries. The fancied Laly/Flohot Ariès retired with a broken axle. At the end Léonard/Manso de Zuniga and Lagache/Pisart duly took the first two places in their little tanks, the first of which was supercharged. The OM was third and then came the Peugeots of Boillot/Serre and Rigal/Letailleur, followed by Merz/Gärtner and Caracciola/Huhnle in the big Mercedes, with the third German entry still down in tenth place. No mention of Sabipa, sorry



This is a report of 1926 !

#5 Simon Davis

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 19:39

Thank you David and Carles for your input - very helpful. David, your race report relates to the 1926 event. Caracciola also competed in 1925 with Walter Gärtner. It was the sole Mercedes and it clearly retired. The trouble with Caracciola's biography is that the list of race results does not include retirements and poor performances so gems like the 1925 Guipúzcoa Touring Car Grand Prix are easily overlooked.

#6 Marc Ceulemans

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 19:42

20 September 1925, results

1- René de Buck / Pierre Decrose (Ballot 2 LS n°14)
2- Rigal* (Peugeot 4 L n°8)
3- "Sabipa"* (Bugatti 1500 cc n°25)
4- Caerels / Dils (Excelsior 5.3 L n°3)
5- Danielli / Danielli (OM 2 L)
6- Minoia / Morandi (OM 2 L)
7- Landa* (Lancia 3 L n°10)
8- Berga* (Lancia)

DNF- Duray / Marin (Excelsior n°1)
DNF- Laly* (Ariès 3 L n°9)
DNF- Boillot / Wagner (Peugeot 4 L n°6)
DNF- Caracciola (Mercedes 1500 n°24)
DNF- Foresti / Balestrero (OM 2 L)
DNF- Ganga* (Jewett n°4)
DNF- Marandet (Delage n°16)

15 starters
* I don't know their respective codriver

#7 Simon Davis

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 20:06

The results for the 1925 Guipúzcoa Touring Car Grand Prix as outlined in Angel Elberdin’s book are as follows:-

1st René De Buck/Decrose – Ballot #14 – 1180.5km @ 98.4km/h
2nd Louis Rigal/Louis Wagner – Peugeot #8 – 1144.7km @ 95.4km/h
3rd Nicola Carais/Diels – Excelsior #1 – 1113.2km @ 92.7km/h
4th Mario Danielli/Timo Danielli – OM #19 – 1097.8km @ 91.5km/h
5th Ferdinando Minoia/Giuseppe Morandi – OM #15 – 1079.7km @ 90km/h
6th Sabipa – Bugatti #25 – 1051.7km @ 87.6km/h

Any spelling errors in the above names are not mine - I have copied them from Elberdin and only corrected those that I was sure of.

#8 David McKinney

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 20:48

Originally posted by Marc Ceulemans
This is a report of 1926 !

Doh :blush:

#9 GIGLEUX

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 21:49

Well Felix, at first Schell with his Cooper is in the official programme and a programme is not printed the day of the race!
Secondly I also found Schell-Cooper in what was published by the local newspapers, Nice-Matin and L'Espoir de Nice, in their 13th of may edition; the race was the 21st of may. The Motor 24th of may relating the race said Schell had a 1100 Cooper.
More interesting is in The Autocar, 26th of may and giving the order of the starting grid: "...and lastly Schell, his Cooper now equipped with a 1100cc J.A.P. engine, with which he had not, of course, practised.".

#10 GIGLEUX

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 21:50

Ooops, sorry, not the good thread!

#11 Boniver

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 22:18

xx xx 1923 - I. Guipuzcoa 12h - HD - Lasarte

1. Martin + ???? - Bignan
2. ????
3. ????



21 sept 1924 - II. Guipuzcoa 12h - HD - Lasarte

1. Matthys + ???? - Bignan
2. ????
3. ????

#12 Marc Ceulemans

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 22:49

3rd Nicola Carais/Diels – Excelsior #1 – 1113.2km @ 92.7km/h

Good spelling = Nicolas Caerels / André Dils.

From Belgium, 2 former riding-mechanics of Christiaens and / or Hornsted in pre-WW1 Grand Prix and Indy 500.
They both worked at the works Excelsior as test driver or chief mechanic. They also competed as drivers at Spa, Le Mans, Routes Pavées, Guipuzcoa and in Belgian sprints and Ralllyes in the 1920s.


About the results, don't forget it was an Handicap race. My version probably take it into account, but I like to read various sources.

#13 Simon Davis

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 22:55

1923 Guipúzcoa Touring Car Grand Prix - 25th July

Category 1 – under 1500cc 6 laps (106.9km)
1st Luis Satrústegui – Bugatti #22 – 1h 14m @ 86.7km/h
2nd Baron Jean De L’Espée – Bugatti #21 – 1h 16m 4s @ 84.3km/h
3rd Pruner – Citroën #20 – 1h 29m 35s @ 71.6km/h

Category 2 – 1501-2000cc 10 laps (178.1km)
1st Eduardo Martín – Bignan #14 – 1h 57m 34s @ 90.9km/h
2nd Belven – Delage #17 – 1h 58m 6s @ 90.5km/h

Category 5 – over 4500cc 25 laps (445.4km)
1st André Dubonnet – Hispano Suiza #2 – 4h 52m 52s @ 91.2km/h
2nd Leoncio Garnier – Hispano Suiza #1 – 4h 59m 2s @ 89.4km/h
3rd Boyriven – Hispano Suiza #3 – 23 laps
4th Samaniego – Cole #6 – 17 laps

All participants in categories 3 (2001-3000cc) and 4 (3001-4500cc) retired.

Source:- ‘Circuito de Lasarte’ by Angel Elberdin

#14 Simon Davis

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 23:17

1924 Guipúzcoa Touring Car Grand Prix – 24th September

Category 1 – under 1100cc 10 laps (178.1km)
1st Oscar Leblanc – Salmson #3 – 2h 8m 55s @ 82.9km/h
2nd Louis Rigal – Ariès #2 – 2h 9m 33s @ 82.5km/h
3rd Rich – Amilcar #10 – 2h 19m 21s @ 76.7km/h
4th Manchón – Hisparco #12 – 2h 28m 51s @ 71.8km/h
5th José Sierra – Hisparco #9 – 2h 32m 51s @ 69.9km/h
6th Aguado – S.C.A.P #1 – 2h 33m 17s @ 69.7km/h
7th Marguerite – Hisparco #6 – 2h 39m 18s @ 67.1km/h
8th Román Uribesalgo – Hisparco #13 – 2h 52m 48s @ 61.9km/h
9th Julio Segovia – S.A.R.A #4 – 2h 59m 51s @ 59.4km/h

Category 2 – 1101-1500cc 12 laps (213.8km)
1st Max Sailer – Mercedes #15 – 2h 38m 27s @ 81km/h
2nd Perís – Aurea #14 – 2h 43m 51s @ 78.3km/h

Category 3 – 1501-2000cc 18 laps (320.7km)
1st Matthys – Bignan #20 – 3h 41m 17s @ 86.9km/h
2nd Springel – Bignan #24 – 3h 51m 48s @ 83km/h
3rd Alfieri Maserati – Diatto #23 – 4h 37m 15s @ 69.4km/h
4th Fernando De Vizcaya – Bugatti #22 – 5h 0m 18s @ 64.1km/h

Category 4 – 2001-3000cc 20 laps (356.3km)
1st Laly – Ariès #26 – 4h 13m 9s @ 84.4km/h

Category 5 – 3001-4500cc 23 laps (409.7km)
1st Henry Courcelles – Lorraine Dietrich #31 – 4h 43m 19s @ 86.8km/h
2nd Brisson – Lorraine Dietrich #32 – 5h 0m 4s @ 81.9km/h

The only participant in Category 6 (over 4500cc – 25 laps) retired.

Source:- ‘Circuito de Lasarte’ by Angel Elberdin

#15 Simon Davis

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 23:26

The 1923 and 1924 events were run to a specific number of laps for each class.

The 1925 event doesn't appear to be a handicap race according to Elberdin.

The 1926 race was run to a 12 hour limit. A time handicap was applied as follows:-
under 1100cc - 0 mins
under 1500cc - 45 mins
under 2000cc - 55 mins
under 3000cc - 61 mins
under 5000cc - 75 mins
over 5000cc - 90 mins

The 1927 race was also run to a 12 hour limit but seemingly without a handicap system across the classes. This was the last Guipúzcoa Touring Car Grand Prix.

#16 Marc Ceulemans

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 23:33

1924
Henri Springuel (Belgium)
Henry Matthys (Belgium)
Henry or Henri de Courcelles (France)