49 replies to this topic

[philippe charuest]

http://www.65cheetahccc.com/home.html
The 1965 Bill Thomas Cheetah Continuation Collectible Coupe and Cro-Sal Special Roadster. continuation seem to be a new trend like the t70.the cheetah doesnt have the same historical importance then the cobra and gto but it sure was a good looking car .who know maybe one day they will do Bocar and Devin "continuation"

[antonvrs]

I dunno- read the road tests from the day. Those things were evil handling toads. A friend of mine used to race one.
Anton

[RA Historian]

WARNING:unpopular statement coming----- continuations are just another form of replicas; i.e., fakes.

Sorry, just the way I feel.

Tom

[Jerry Entin]

Here are a couple of Cheetah's as seen in the day.



photo Richard Macon collection

[jm70]

Tom, I have to agree with you. And the sad thing is, the thing will probably have more power, stronger suspension, etc. And perhaps dilute the value of the originals.

[antonvrs]

I, too, agree that "Continuations" are just fakes- and their builders are just greedy businessmen who don't get it.
I can't decide which is worse; when they replicate something good and inevitably do a crappy job of it(Scarab, Cunningham) or when they replicate something that wasn't very good in the first place like the Cheetah.
Anton the Carmudgeon

[lanciaman]

I, too, knew a fellow who raced one. He said it was unbearably hot and frighteningly twitchy. He hated it.

[Dennis Currington]

Cheetah #9, originally the Dixon Cadillac Cheetah. Sold to the driver in this photo, Jim Phillips

[ZOOOM]

I will prolly never have enough money to own one of the original Scarabs, or a Chetah, or a Chapparal 2E, maybe even a 427 Cobra, or that Corvette original stingray....

But if I am lucky enough I MAY be able to own a clone.

Now I have seen the Scarab continuation. The makers make no bones about the car being ORIGINAL. And the workmanship is beautiful and first class.

Don't try to tell Jim Hall that his continuation 2E is junk, or try to complain to him that he shouldn't be making exact copies. I'm sure that none of them will be invited to the Pebble Beach venues.

Except for the Cobra clowns (clones?) I havn't seen anyone try to palm one off as original.

When I win the lottery, and put together my stable of (clones) I'll be sure not to offer you any rides. There will be far too many others who will really enjoy them....

ZOOOM

[Jerry Entin]

Ralph Salyer is the big guy in the picture
The little guy in the matching coat is his son Mark Salyer. This is the Cheetah Ralph took the top off and called it the CroSal Special. The Cro part was for Gene Crowe.

photo Mark Salyer collection

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by RA Historian
WARNING:unpopular statement coming----- continuations are just another form of replicas; i.e., fakes.

Sorry, just the way I feel.

Tom

Walk up to the guy building them and tell him that to his face; if not then it is a rather gutless condemnation.

He may respond to you in a more gentlemanly way than you might think.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
Walk up to the guy building them and tell him that to his face; if not then it is a rather gutless condemnation.

I HAVE done that to builders and/or owners of fakes at vanity car races and I do not regret having done so.
Tom

[philippe charuest]

Originally posted by ZOOOM
I will prolly never have enough money to own one of the original Scarabs, or a Chetah, or a Chapparal 2E, maybe even a 427 Cobra, or that Corvette original stingray....

But if I am lucky enough I MAY be able to own a clone.

Now I have seen the Scarab continuation. The makers make no bones about the car being ORIGINAL. And the workmanship is beautiful and first class.

Don't try to tell Jim Hall that his continuation 2E is junk, or try to complain to him that he shouldn't be making exact copies. I'm sure that none of them will be invited to the Pebble Beach venues.

Except for the Cobra clowns (clones?) I havn't seen anyone try to palm one off as original.

When I win the lottery, and put together my stable of (clones) I'll be sure not to offer you any rides. There will be far too many others who will really enjoy them....

ZOOOM

right .one day they will even have to "continuate " some formula ford like the merlyn because the originals will be too expensive like the junior and f3 already are. and that knowing that theres not one original bolt in those original but thats an other debate

[Jerry Entin]

When I see a replica car coming down the street, I just smile. I figure whoever is driving it is having fun. It also lets the future generation see what a Cheetah or a Cobra looked like. We don't expect someone with a million dollar original Cobra to drive it on the street.

If somewhere down the line it is agreeded to make classes in Vintage racing for these replica or continuation cars. I wouldn't be against it. As long as they meet the safety requirements of the racing orginization and they have proved to be a safely constructed vehicle.

As Philippe has said, the originals just plain cost too much.

[John Brundage]

Originally posted by philippe charuest
http://www.65cheetahccc.com/home.html
The 1965 Bill Thomas Cheetah Continuation Collectible Coupe and Cro-Sal Special Roadster. continuation seem to be a new trend like the t70.the cheetah doesnt have the same historical importance then the cobra and gto but it sure was a good looking car .who know maybe one day they will do Bocar and Devin "continuation"

While the Bocar Stilleto is an interesting car, I don't think many will be interested in purchasing a continuation car if it is the same as the original. They are a handfull.

[Frank S]

In the current Mustang world it is relatively simple to make an S197 (2005+) look (and act, a little) like a Shelby GT500. Differences that matter are detectable to those who care; those who don't care, don't matter.

Does anyone remember the era when it was popular, as a visibility/safety measure, for older folks and children to have a long whip with a fluorescent pennant mounted on their bicycles? With one of those displayed on "continuations" and other fake items the owners could still have their fun, and so could I.

"Rolex? Yeah, right."

[antonvrs]

I'm with you, Frank.
Anton

[chuckbrandt]

I think the Cheetah is an interesting car but I'm sure it's a hadful. An interesting note is that with a lot of engine setback and short wheelbase, there is no driveshaft, rear axle is coupled directly to transmission output.

Here are a couple of interesting pictures of the Cro-Sal Cheetah before they cut the top off it. These were taken at Greenwood, Iowa, a race where the car retired from driver heat exhaustion. (probably why they cut the top off).

Chuck

P.S. I've posted my feelings about replicas before. I think they have their place, for guys like me who can't afford a real one (whatever it is). I of course prefer them to be as historically accurate as possible, so lean towards the "continuation" end of the spectrum. I wish there were more vintage type racing events for these cars. That way we could drive the snot out of them and not worry about dinging a historically important car.




(My Fake)

[Jerry Entin]

I know I am the minority in this discussion. I wouldn't call these cars Fake. I would refer to them as affordable. If you buy one of these cars in kit form and reconstruct it yourself, with say the help of a friend, I feel you are doing something you enjoy and can be proud of. You are not claiming to have an original car.

The Original Cheetah was trying to use midget race car or sprint car type or even maybe the late 50's Kurtiss Indy type construction ideas. It did use stock Corvette component parts. Like the engine and gearbox and rear end. They were very squirrelly, probably because of where they chose the engine placement. They also had the exhaust run over your feet, this caused the heat to fry your toes everytime you ran the car. In a straight line they were superior to say a McLaren or Lola. They were a missle going straight, in the turns they were lacking.

The Cooper Monaco's and Lotus 19's and the Brabham BT8's all relied on Formula One type thinking. This was a superior vehicle in the corners. After they put bigger engines in these cars, they would be unbeatable, if they stayed together. This is the type of car the Cheetah was expected to run against.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by RA Historian
I HAVE done that to builders and/or owners of fakes at vanity car races and I do not regret having done so.
Tom

How did the people building the Cheetah, and Mr. Thomas respond to your opinion?
Bob
PS-- Mr. Thomas was working on a much improved second generation Cheetah when his shop burned up, is there any chance of this seeing the light of day?
Also, the original lacked from developement.
If the current car gains the improvements that the prototypes WOULD have gotten, is that going against some sacred creed?
Are they supposed to remain nasty because the undeveloped original was?

[Jon Petersen II]

A fake?

What do you mean - it doesn´t have an engine? There´s only wheels on the side facing the camera? It can´t really drive?

No, it becomes a fake when somebody tries to pass it on as an original. Until then it is - well, a car. A very tiny little one with the biggest available engine. In one way or another, looking like a Cheetah, looking very good to me, and possibly quite funny to drive, unless he put in a VW engine. Which, I guess, he didn´t.

So to me, building one today is the same utter madness as it always was. And funny and rewarding too, I hope.

Jon

[Todd]

Originally posted by antonvrs
I, too, agree that "Continuations" are just fakes- and their builders are just greedy businessmen who don't get it.
I can't decide which is worse; when they replicate something good and inevitably do a crappy job of it(Scarab, Cunningham) or when they replicate something that wasn't very good in the first place like the Cheetah.
Anton the Carmudgeon

I'm curious about your statement that the Cunningham continuation was 'a crappy job.' What was crappy about it?

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
I figure whoever is driving it is having fun.

Isn't this what its all about?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos


Isn't this what its all about?

Ay, there's the rub.

In historic racing, though, whose fun is important? The racer or the spectator? It is a bit less fun as a spectator to see something called a GT40 that's been no nearer to Le Mans than 2007. It's also a bit less fun as a spectator to see a genuine 1966 GT40 get comprehensively stuffed because someone's pot-hunting...

[Red Socks]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
When I see a replica car coming down the street, I just smile. I figure whoever is driving it is having fun. It also lets the future generation see what a Cheetah or a Cobra looked like. We don't expect someone with a million dollar original Cobra to drive it on the street.

If somewhere down the line it is agreeded to make classes in Vintage racing for these replica or continuation cars. I wouldn't be against it. As long as they meet the safety requirements of the racing orginization and they have proved to be a safely constructed vehicle.

As Philippe has said, the originals just plain cost too much.

Jerry point about safety is rather interesting.
A brand new car has to meet 2009 safety regulations-crash tests etc-.I think we all agree that old cars don't meet those specifications, but plainly they can race today as they were then.
However the new cars are new ,why should they be allowed to run to old standards and even more worrying how long before we have maimed drivers or corner workers with injuries caused by a car having an accident which had it met todays safety standards would not have done the damage it has?
I await a lawyers reply but would be very reluctant to race a modern replica in some countries.

[Red Socks]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin


The Original Cheetah was trying to use midget race car or sprint car type or even maybe the late 50's Kurtiss Indy type construction ideas. It did use stock Corvette component parts. Like the engine and gearbox and rear end. They were very squirrelly, probably because of where they chose the engine placement. They also had the exhaust run over your feet, this caused the heat to fry your toes everytime you ran the car. In a straight line they were superior to say a McLaren or Lola. They were a missle going straight, in the turns they were lacking.

[/B]

Why does my money say that the continuation cars won't have any of the braking /handling problems of the originals?

[Jerry Entin]

Red Socks: I meant that they should be built to a safe standard. Not too the current bumper and safety regulations. Only built so they will hold up under racing conditions. They may have improved disk type brakes and they may have bigger and stronger engines.

[fines]

Originally posted by ensign14
Ay, there's the rub.

In historic racing, though, whose fun is important? The racer or the spectator? It is a bit less fun as a spectator to see something called a GT40 that's been no nearer to Le Mans than 2007. It's also a bit less fun as a spectator to see a genuine 1966 GT40 get comprehensively stuffed because someone's pot-hunting...

So, what DO you want???

Best of both worlds? No such thing...

[ensign14]

Originally posted by fines

So, what DO you want???

Best of both worlds? No such thing...

Balls-out racing ought to be in contemporary machinery. I don't see the point in glorified Legends racing. I suppose though I'd like to see the historic things being driven to near their period capability, but not to a significant risk...

[Arjan de Roos]

How many of the original Cheeta's are still around? Don mentioned in this thread that many ended up on dragstrips:
http://forums.autosp...ghlight=cheetah

[philippe charuest]

Originally posted by Red Socks


Why does my money say that the continuation cars won't have any of the braking /handling problems of the originals?

wich is also true of 99% of the cars in vintage racing event. thanks to modern rubber lubricant brake pad,brake fluid ,clutch garniture,bearing .bushing .piston ring and so. P.S and the "drum" brake with the carbon aglomerate its possible to do now incredibly efficient drum brake. do they ever check the compound of those tire use in vintage. i wonder sometime why theres not more paddock discussion around all the cheating posibility

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin

Here are a couple of Cheetah's as seen in the day.



photo Richard Macon collection

Jerry, that sure looks like the garage area at Augusta!

Also, on track in Augusta. Photograph from Auto Sport Magazine.



Henry

[ZOOOM]

I remember talking to Augie Pabst about the Scarab last summer at the Miller meet. He indicated that it was not able to go as fast around elkhart lake as the Scarab used to do because he is unable to get tires as big as they used to have back then. He said they just don't make the size he used to run on.
He also said that when he ran against the Masarati birdcage years ago that the drivers were very surprised to fine Augie out breaking them with the drum braked Scarab. He said once the drums were warmed up properly that they were terrific. He also said that relining the Scarab brakes costs about three hundred dollars a drum today.
He also indicated that racig the Scarab in vintage events would have to stop fairly soon. The car is after all over 50 years old and worth about 5 MILLION dollars. Also, he aint gettin any younger.

What happens when he retires the Scarab? a great piece of RACING history will be gone. Maybe the clones will look better then....
ZOOOM

[Aero426]

The magic of Augie's Scarab is the union of original car and driver. When that ends, it will be a sad day for me as a fan.

It will be interesting to see what ultimately happens to Augie's Scarab - whether it will remain in the family and run by Augie III, or sold off. But it's clear that the day is coming when Augie will stop driving the car competitively. The car is typically run in July when it is very warm, and Augie (along with other younger drivers) looks like he is ready to be poured out of the car. He still does the car justice, and I certainly don't think I could do it at age 46. That car can be very fussy with regard to the brakes. When they are on, they are great. It is certainly a thoroughbred and generally high strung.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by ensign14
Ay, there's the rub.

In historic racing, though, whose fun is important? The racer or the spectator? It is a bit less fun as a spectator to see something called a GT40 that's been no nearer to Le Mans than 2007. It's also a bit less fun as a spectator to see a genuine 1966 GT40 get comprehensively stuffed because someone's pot-hunting...

That strictly depends on the opinions of the spectator.

If one wants to see a GT40 run, its history means little to nothing.
I saw some of the originals forty years ago; watch a non-historic GT run is just as entertaining as one with history.

If a driver stuffs, so it goes, that's racing. I greatly admire the driver/owner for have the balls to actually make the car perform near its limits.

Bob

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by ZOOOM
I remember talking to Augie Pabst about the Scarab last summer at the Miller meet. He indicated that it was not able to go as fast around elkhart lake as the Scarab used to do because he is unable to get tires as big as they used to have back then. He said they just don't make the size he used to run on.
He also said that when he ran against the Masarati birdcage years ago that the drivers were very surprised to fine Augie out breaking them with the drum braked Scarab. He said once the drums were warmed up properly that they were terrific. He also said that relining the Scarab brakes costs about three hundred dollars a drum today.
He also indicated that racig the Scarab in vintage events would have to stop fairly soon. The car is after all over 50 years old and worth about 5 MILLION dollars. Also, he aint gettin any younger.

What happens when he retires the Scarab? a great piece of RACING history will be gone. Maybe the clones will look better then....
ZOOOM

Isn't Augie the perfect gentleman and still a very, very sharp memory. When I talked to him about Augusta last year he actually remembered that the USRRC event was the first at the track.......................45 years later he still remembered the details...........even when he stayed for the event.

Henry

[metalshapes]

Originally posted by Red Socks


Why does my money say that the continuation cars won't have any of the braking /handling problems of the originals?

I was talking once to a guy who bought & sold old racecars.

He had an "alsoran" Formula car with a unremarkeble history, and he said that would be a great car to sort out 'cause nobody would know where exactly the suspension pickup points were, originally.
So that isn't a continuation car problem only...


On replicars, etc.

Seems to me there is a place for fancy plastic on VW pans, nut & bolt accurate recreations of the Originals, and everything in between.

As long as it is 100% clear what it really is...

[John Brundage]

Originally posted by philippe charuest
wich is also true of 99% of the cars in vintage racing event. thanks to modern rubber lubricant brake pad,brake fluid ,clutch garniture,bearing .bushing .piston ring and so. P.S and the "drum" brake with the carbon aglomerate its possible to do now incredibly efficient drum brake. do they ever check the compound of those tire use in vintage. i wonder sometime why theres not more paddock discussion around all the cheating posibility

Yes, depending on what organization is running the event, the tire compounds are checked during tech

[RA Historian]

As long as it is 100% clear what it really is...

And therein lies the rub....

[metalshapes]

Originally posted by RA Historian
As long as it is 100% clear what it really is...

And therein lies the rub....

I know...

Passing one off as the real deal can never be justified.


But, here in Tucson there are a lot of Cobra Replicas on the Road.
( I guess our climate is perfect for them )

With their Glassfibre bodies, modern wheels, low profile tires, and latemodel engines they are not fooling anybody.

And their owners are having a lot of fun with them.

[thunder427]

FAKE !!!!,my son whom lives in Hong Kong aquired a 1981 911/ SC Porsche from its original 'Lady' owner ,whom was given the car as a 'gift by her parents, when she graduated from University in 1981,this car is now residing in my workshop (under covers) it has only travelled ,5700km's on road since new,.......every body that see's it is astounded by its condition,...."but the Mileage cant be correct !!!"..its a 'Fake'.........noooooooo!! its genuine..."can't be the 'Odometer must have died,cant have travelled those k's"............this a genuine documented Porsche.....But !!.....every body thinks its a FAKE !!!, My Question; If thats a fake, whats Genuine !!!???!!!?

[Docc]

When I was a youngster..Bill Thomas and the Cheetah were a dream car I saw race a few times.

Would I own a repop of the Cheetah..? Probably not..unless I could vintage race...and I certainly could not afford an original. Racing such a exotic original is fantasy for me.
Would I enjoy driving a fairly accurate repop..absolutely.


So many old race cars have little left of the original..panels..motors..brakes..almost just the chassis plate is original.

Seems difficult to fault someone making a full pepop to vintage race..IF it meets vintage spec...especially if related to the original source or owner.

A neighbor of mine runs race team..a Lola CanAm car..over the years much has been replaced..

Would I want to pilot that..?
With every fibre of my body and it's..

[ZOOOM]

Remember the story about George Washington's axe that chopped down the Cherry tree?

Well, of course the handle has been replaced many years ago "but it's still the axe"

And then there's the head...... that was replaced three years ago....... "but the axe is still the axe!"


ZOOOM
by the way, I still own the axe...........

[Arjan de Roos]

Seen at Retromobile 2007. Which one is it?

[HistoricMustang]

Going in a straight line in that thing had to be a rush.

Perhaps a little pucker factor through the turns.

Nice looking car!

Henry

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
Seen at Retromobile 2007. Which one is it?

MUCH too neat and clean to be an original. Has to be a copy.
Tom

[Aero426]

Originally posted by HistoricMustang
Going in a straight line that thing had to be a rush.

Perhaps a little pucker factor through the turns.

No, I would say it's more like all pucker, all the time!

When the Cro-Sal car was at Road America about 1990, the driver stated that it pulled one way under acceleration, and another way on deceleration. A real handful as they say. In period the Cro-Sal car held the trap speed record at Road America down the Moraine Sweep. (Wish that little timing shack was still there).

Photo is from Lynndale Farms, outside Milwaukee in 1964. Copyright R. Tarwack collection

[raceannouncer2003]

To quote Jerry Grant:

"...the way the Cheetah was, that was the most ill-handling SOB I ever drove in my life, and I'd get out of it and tell (Alan) Green that I'd never drive it again...that thing scared me to death...and then I'd take a look at it and say, "That should be fast!..."

and Gary Gove:

"...I spun the thing 740 degrees (at Shelton)! Larry (Webb) crewed the car for me that year (1965), and did a fine job, as I never had a DNF with it, and we ended up making the car go fairly quickly..."

Vince H.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Aero426


No, I would say it's more like all pucker, all the time!

When the Cro-Sal car was at Road America about 1990, the driver stated that it pulled one way under acceleration, and another way on deceleration. A real handful as they say. In period the Cro-Sal car held the trap speed record at Road America down the Moraine Sweep. (Wish that little timing shack was still there).

Photo is from Lynndale Farms, outside Milwaukee in 1964. Copyright R. Tarwack collection

The Cro-Sal Cheetah coupe, driven by Ralph Salyer, went through the Moraine Sweep speed trap at Road America at the 1964 June Sprints at 173mph, which was easily the fastest speed attained at the track up to that time. Of course, the record was quickly broken within the year, but that is the way of all records.

Salyer chopped the top off his Cheetah, creating the above pictured roadster, because the interior became so hot as to be unbearable. 1964 was the last year for the old "true" SCCA Nationals prior to the adoption of the divisional system which continues to this day. Salyer won two SCCA Nationals that year, the Road America June Sprints and at Lynndale Farms.

Regarding trap speeds at Road America, 173 mph has been left in the dust. Many of us remember the in car telemetry from Raul Boesel's CART racer displayed on the TV screen during a telecast in the late 90s. Boesel topped 200 mph at THREE different sections of the track, the main straight, the Moraine Sweep, and Kettle Bottoms. You can see why the fastest lap times are in the 140mph range.

Tom

[helioseism]

The latest issue of Automobile Quarterly, Vol. 50 No. 2, has a 12-page article on the Cheetah by Winston Goodfellow.

Perhaps this thread should be merged with the "Cheetah" thread?