87 replies to this topic

[lake-linden]

I am still waiting for something to arrive from Finland relating to the 1966 1000 lakes. This will be of interest to this thread, but for now – can anyone help me briefly with some of my research? I am looking for the most complete list of entries for the 1962 Alpine Rally. Can any of you guys help ? Sorry it’s not part of this thread – maybe I should open a new thread…

[Graham Gauld]

The attached photo may help sort some things out. This is Jim Clark testing at Chobham before the RAC Rally when he spent a day with Roger Clark

[RS2000]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
The attached photo may help sort some things out. This is Jim Clark testing at Chobham before the RAC Rally when he spent a day with Roger Clark

Unfortunately, no it doesn't! - but many thanks for posting the photo - and confirming the Bagshot test with Roger Albert was one day only.
I can't read the last bit of the reg no in the photo but it presumably is the (red) KPU386C that was for sale about a year ago as "Jim Clark's RAC Rally Lotus Cortina". I think there's a thread on here. When I asked the auction house about their claim, all I got in reply is what the Army calls "dumb insolence"...
Another poster at the time was able to confirm the ex-Elford (red) KPU395C was also at that test, presumably as a spare car.
Any indication that JC did a "shake down" of NVW241C immediately before the RAC? (as opposed to this extended "training session" with KPU386C).

I have a photo (that I won't post, as I imagine it's Ford copyright) of JC/Brian Melia standing either side of this Elford car at Silverstone, as if it was their RAC car, I think a month before the RAC. I may be totally wrong but it may have been the day JC actually agreed to do the RAC? This other photo (from France) of that car is after Vic Elford was towed to the finish of the (September)66 Coupe des Alpes after the engine failed on the final stage when in the lead. Legend has it VE left it and went off to talk to Huske von Hanstein...

[RS2000]

Originally posted by lake-linden
can anyone help me briefly with some of my research? I am looking for the most complete list of entries for the 1962 Alpine Rally. Can any of you guys help ? Sorry it’s not part of this thread – maybe I should open a new thread…

Maybe it should go to the rally results thread jrally opened but (pure luck,as it was posted on ForumAuto recently) here's the 62 Coupe des Alpes (a very low entry) :

[RS2000]

May be clearer


I think the "Morris Minors" numbered in the 70s are Mini-Minors. The BMWs in the last class must be four wheel "bubble car" things. The Zodiac was used at that time rather than the Zephyr because, although carrying extra trim, it had a different manifold that gave it more power (and which couldn't be changed in Gp1/2).

[Graham Gauld]

The registration number of the car in the photo I posted is KPU 395 C .The car used on another occasion with Roger Clark - unless they had both cars at the same session - was NVW 241 C.

[lake-linden]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RS2000
[B]

Maybe it should go to the rally results thread jrally opened but (pure luck,as it was posted on ForumAuto recently) here's the 62 Coupe des Alpes (a very low entry) :

Thanks so much for that RS2000 - I will continue the rest of that as you suggested.

[RS2000]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
The registration number of the car in the photo I posted is KPU 395 C .The car used on another occasion with Roger Clark - unless they had both cars at the same session - was NVW 241 C.

As mentioned earlier, KPU386C was used by JC on the test day and was subsequently described for sale, restored, at the end of 2007 as "Jim Clark's RAC Rally car", which is stretching things far too much to be an acceptable description. I don't have any actual rally history for 386. KPU395C was there too, a tired rally car, the reg no used by Vic Elford in Europe in 65 and then on the 65 RAC (but, from jwoch, not actually the same car in the last case) - and now thanks to Graham Gauld confirmed as driven there by JC too.
As also mentioned above, it was normal to conduct a brief "shake down" of the actual rally cars at Bagshot immediately before the RAC. All 4 would have been expected to run there very briefly. Any other information, including dates, would be useful.
It's quite possible the extended test with JC in the older cars was at the same time as the "shake down" of the actual rally cars - but no photos of other than the old red cars seem to have been published at the time - and the test was attended by some of the press. I think this of 386 at the test has already been posted by someone else on here (published the day before the start of the 66 RAC but probably took place much earlier and held back for the event preview edition) :

[sterling49]

There are some great photos being posted in this thread, my 1st ever car in 1970 was a dark blue 1500 G.T., the Lotus was of course the weapon of choice

[jwoch]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
The registration number of the car in the photo I posted is KPU 395 C .The car used on another occasion with Roger Clark - unless they had both cars at the same session - was NVW 241 C.

I thought we had already agreed that the (NVW) car pictured with the two Clarks during testing was 242C, Roger's car.

Please note also that I withdrew the comment that there were two 395s, I got some rally dates mixed up.

[Graham Gauld]

Dear JWoch and all

Reference my short earlier comment I mentioned a second photo of Jim Clark and Roger Clark with a Lotus Cortina, NVW241 C as being testing when in fact the pic of the two of them wiith this car was taken just before the RAC Rally as it was already numbered up for the event.

I have gone through all the thumbnail sheets of the original test session which Roger Clark and Brian Melia attended and the only car used was KPU 395C.

There must have been a further "Press" affair, as hinted at earler, which resulted in the photo published in Autosport and reproduced earler.

[sterling49]

Anyone have news on NVW 241C? It all seems to have gone very quiet.

[RS2000]

Much as expected?

[Rivendell]

Not NVW241C but I used to own NVW242C during the '70's. When I had it it was fitted with a n/c 1500GT engine which I subsequently blew up and rebuilt with a Newman cam and had balanced at Alan Smiths. Due in no small part to the balancing this engine was a real screamer, coupled with a very low diff ratio it was a very quick car in its day and quite well known on the Derbyshire Rallying scene. If any former members of Vagabond Motor Club read this they may remember it. When I owned it, it was Daytona Orange with a black bonnet. I sold it to a guy from Ellesmere Port, more than this is lost to memory.

[lake-linden]

Been waiting for this to happen! Keep us posted. I'll ask around.
The accepted line is that it was cut up at Boreham and went on the scrap heap as there was hardly a straight panel left, no one would have been interested in buying such a thing at the time and it had been the last works outing for the Mk1. I can't post the photos of the wreck back at base that exist as they are surely copyright of someone, if not Ford still?
The first seriously modified works Escort rally car - AVX574G, the Gp6 car used by Roger Clark on the 68 Coupe des Alpes - has mysteriously appeared on Ebay this week. After people started pointing out that the car had clearly been Photoshopped on to its claimed Finnish residential street, it was withdrawn. It's true fate is said to have been a loan car to Barry Lee for rallycross assault and battery and then sold on for the running gear.

This one should be good!
I once started looking into the origin of NVW241C. It was said to have been "found" by Boreham for JC for the 66 RAC at the last minute. We have the 3 new white/green/black cars NVW239C, NVW242C (older 66 Monte Gp1 reg but new car) and (old reg but new car) KPU380C for the 66 Coupe des Alpes then used by the same drivers on the 66 RAC. We know the subsequent story of 239. 242 is said to have been written off on the 66 Welsh shortly after the RAC and scrapped. KPU380C was in other hands later (driven by David Sutton at one time but mysteriously having lost the black bonnet...).
So what was 241C? A test/spare car built at the same time as the other new white cars? The white/green car used by Roger Clark on the 1966 1000 Lakes (where no other works Cortinas were entered)? The 66 1000 Lakes came before the 66 Coupe des Alpes so it was not one of those 3 cars? I have unsuccessfully asked in Finland, via France, for any photos of the 1000 Lakes car. We know old KPU red cars, not newer white ones, were used for testing prior to the 66 RAC and have placed 386C and the ex-Elford 395C at Bagshot in that context.

I've just noticed this somewhat detailed account of a member searching for info on the Ford Escort AVX574G http://forums.autosp...howtopic=109201 - its interesting to say the least. Lets hope that more infor on this car actually comes to light.

[dwoodgate]

Rivendell,
I read your memorys of NVW242C, iam sure this was the car i navigated for Jeff Fardell, on the 1970 Dukeries Rally. At that time the car was Orange, with Matt Black bonnet and wing tops, Jeff and i were both members of the Vagabond Motor Club, and this was our first time in a real stage event, jeff puchased the car from Langdrop Engineering in Ansty
Leics, at that time it was in works trim,with fresh Twin Cam fitted. I think we finished 30 something ( sorry, the memory is weak, no paper work i can put my hands on for this event.)
Shortly after this Jeff moved ( work move, he was a manager with Fine Fare Supermarkets), and i lost contact with him and the car.

[RS2000]

Re 242C, could not referring to "the" car be va bit confusing for some and no more correct than saying the white/green/black "works" 242 was the same "car" as the red Gp1 Monte 242? Was the remains bought complete with registration document and the running gear transferred to another (non-works) shell or was it merely the reg number attached to another car? The understanding was that the 242 works shell (the second to carry the number) was scrapped after the Welsh in the same way as 241 was after the RAC - running gear removed and shell cut up.

[Rivendell]

DWOODGATE
I think it is the same car. I can remember a Langrop sticker in the back window. I believe the guy I bought it off was called Ged Harrington. Not sure how long he had it for. I have been trying to remember exactly when I owned this car and I think it was '74/'75.

[Graham Gauld]

This one should be good!
I once started looking into the origin of NVW241C. It was said to have been "found" by Boreham for JC for the 66 RAC at the last minute. We have the 3 new white/green/black cars NVW239C, NVW242C (older 66 Monte Gp1 reg but new car) and (old reg but new car) KPU380C for the 66 Coupe des Alpes then used by the same drivers on the 66 RAC. We know the subsequent story of 239. 242 is said to have been written off on the 66 Welsh shortly after the RAC and scrapped. KPU380C was in other hands later (driven by David Sutton at one time but mysteriously having lost the black bonnet...).
So what was 241C? A test/spare car built at the same time as the other new white cars? The white/green car used by Roger Clark on the 1966 1000 Lakes (where no other works Cortinas were entered)? The 66 1000 Lakes came before the 66 Coupe des Alpes so it was not one of those 3 cars? I have unsuccessfully asked in Finland, via France, for any photos of the 1000 Lakes car. We know old KPU red cars, not newer white ones, were used for testing prior to the 66 RAC and have placed 386C and the ex-Elford 395C at Bagshot in that context. [/B]


Interesting thread - RS2000, do you know the reg number or racing number of the Bengt Söderström/Gunnar Palm - Ford Lotus Cortina, that ran in the 1966 1000 Lakes Rally ? It retired (listed "Gearbox") but it's not clear what car it is. The other Lotus Cortina on the 66 1000 Lakes was of course the white and green/black Lotus Cortina driven by Roger clark/Brian Melia. I have been promised a detailed copy of this entrants list for this event from Finland - so when I get it I'll try to post it here.

I know this was some time back but I finally looked out the Jim Clark/Roger Clark test day photos at Chobham/Bagshot and you are quite correct, two cars were used, KPU 395C and KPU 389C and have attached two photos taken from that same day showing Clark driving both

[RS2000]

Thanks for that - but now that's 3 cars 395, 389 and 386 photographed there with JC. Does anyone have Autosport 18/11/66 to see what else it actually says about the photo of 386. Maybe 386 was at the "shakedown" when the actual RAC Rally cars were also there rather than the JC test day with RC?

[D-Type]

Are we sure that JC only had one test day with the Cortina-Lotus?

[jwoch]

Autosport 18 Nov. 1966. The caption to the JC photo reads "Getting his hand in for his first international rally. Jim Clark slides a works Lotus-Cortina while practicing special stage motoring". Over the page there is another shot of Vic Elford in KPU 389C. That caption includes "..... Ford practice session on Mike Cannon's farmland."
There is little in the text about JC other than saying he is in the fourth works car.

[sterling49]

Autosport 18 Nov. 1966. The caption to the JC photo reads "Getting his hand in for his first international rally. Jim Clark slides a works Lotus-Cortina while practicing special stage motoring". Over the page there is another shot of Vic Elford in KPU 389C. That caption includes "..... Ford practice session on Mike Cannon's farmland."
There is little in the text about JC other than saying he is in the fourth works car.

Mike Cannon's farm, just down Seven Mile Lane, near Paddock Wood, the site of many trials in the past, happy days, I never knew Jim practised there though!

[Les Dalton]

Are we sure that JC only had one test day with the Cortina-Lotus?

Hi D-Type,
I think it is safe to say that Jimmy did do more testing in the Lotus Cortina before the 1966 RAC rally started from London Airport, because in ROGER Clarks book, Sideways to Victory, Roger says that after Jimmy spent the day at Bagshot with him (pages 73-75 of the book) that Jimmy and Brian went off and did quite a bit more testing.

Sterling and RS2000, there are some super pictures of the works Fords in this book, including NVW 242 C with Roger and Brian after finishing 2nd O/A on the 1966 Alpine rally.
Regards,
Les.

Edited by Les Dalton, 03 December 2009 - 22:41.

[sterling49]

Hi D-Type,
I think it is safe to say that Jimmy did do more testing in the Lotus Cortina before the 1966 RAC rally started from London Airport, because in ROGER Clarks book, sideways to victory, Roger says that after Jimmy spent the day at Bagshot with him (pages 73-75 of the book) that Jimmy and Brian went off and did quite a bit more testing.

Sterling and RS2000, there are some super pictures of the works Fords in this book, including NVW 242 C with Roger and Brian after finishing 2nd O/A on the 1966 Alpine rally.
Regards,
Les.

Hi Les, I have the Albert book, but I store all my books at my mums, will look next time I am up there. The "Boreham" book, which I have at home at the moment, has a photo of Jimmy on page 48 and of Bengt (winner '66) on page 49. I really liked the look of the Cortinas in this year, black bonnet, Tech-Dels, interestingly, Jimmy had two up two down lights, and Bengt four across the space in between the quarter bumpers. Jimmy must have been having some rapid arm movement in car, because the righthand indicator is blinking!

[RS2000]

interestingly, Jimmy had two up two down lights, and Bengt four across the space in between the quarter bumpers.

Soderstrom was a truck driver, so used that aux light arrangement - one you can still see on trucks on the roads today.

Les, I may well have photos of Coupe des Alpes Cortinas that originate in that book but I've obtained them from French forum sources that show no regard for copyright. The only one I think I posted here was of Vic Elford and was taken by a French amateur and knowingly made available.

On the main subject of the the thread, we're still waiting.....and judging by some of the controversy over resurected/replica/copy Escorts and Minis recently we may have a long wait. Im told even MN blindly swallowed the story of LAR800P and LAR801P on the recent R.A.C. ("Roger Albert Clark") Rally.

Edited by RS2000, 05 December 2009 - 21:21.

[sterling49]

Soderstrom was a truck driver, so used that aux light arrangement - one you can still see on trucks on the roads today.

Surely illegal in the U.K.? I used to run two up, two down, until I believe we were only allowed to have two auxillary lamps on road events, I cannot remember when the R.A.C. sanctioned the change??

[bradbury west]

I cannot remember the exact detauil, but the Road traffic regs require light centres to be above something like 22/23ins above road level, otherwise they can be used only in fog or falling snow, which is why those fools who run with their under-bumper lights on in daylight or a bit of drizzle are a pain.
IIRC cars like my old round tube G4 would not be allowed to be built these days with the original light set up.
BTW, does anyone recall one or more of the rally cars running aeroplane landing lights as auxiliary driving lights in period? Seems to ring a bell
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 06 December 2009 - 19:52.

[sterling49]

Russell Brookes ran some humongus Foden truck auxillaries in the '78/79 (?) R.A.C. they were plain ugly compared to the Hella and Cibies of the day, no doubt thet worked well though!!!

Worse than the front fog lamps Roger, are the muppets that run their high intensity rear guards in rainy conditions, on the motorway it is hard to differentiate between brake lights and fog guards, a dubious practice by the "I've got 'em, so I am gonna use 'em" brigade..............

[RS2000]

BTW, does anyone recall one or more of the rally cars running aeroplane landing lights as auxiliary driving lights in period? Seems to ring a bell
Roger Lund

The Alan Mann-built Group 1 Lotus Cortinas - a sort of second string Ford works team - Ljungfeldt, Proctor and ? (Greder?) for the 66 Monte had a pair of enormous oblong aux lts mounted on the bonnet. Have photos but all copyright no doubt.

FIA regs from 66 allowed only 2 aux lts in Gp1 and only matched pairs in Gp2. Previously all manner of mix allowed, single lts in centre etc. UK non-FIA events post 66 was a grey area. I recall runing 3 aux lts as late as 70. At some point the RTA required the set height, which made using lower non-fog aux lts illegal....but using was the operative word. If you simply had them fitted and only actually used them on stages on private land...
The first problem I recall with a scrutineer on a stage event was the 73 Welsh - he failed loads of people, starting with Will Sparrow's Mini with its "4 across the grille" works-type light bar (and later mine). Next event no one cared again.

[JtP1]

The lamp height restriction was always in force, ie well before the 70s. It seems to have disappeared in the 80s, probably in some EU ratification.

Lamps had to be fitted with their centres between 24" and 36", unless used in fog or falling snow. Thus mounting the lamps as per Will Sparrow on a works bar was not illegal, as the lamps could legally mounted there for road use and used only in fog or falling snow. The original mounting of works mini lamps had the lower pair in the same restrictive position. Hillman Imps apparently had their front suspension raised just before release because the headlamps were too low.

[Les Dalton]

Hi Sterling and RS2000,
If you click on this link below, there is a very nice looking Lotus Cortina for sale Circa 30k, but it also has a very interesting write up attached to it, it is the 12th car down the list.
Kind regards to you both,
Les Dalton.







http://www.classicca...y/browsevalue/7

[sterling49]

It looks a lovely car Les, Mk 1s make very high prices though.

[Rivendell]

Its all gone quiet on this post, has no-one anything new to report on NVW241C and NVW242C?

[Rupertlt1]

NVW 240C, discuss:

https://www.transpor...m/photo/rs00121

Who is in the photograph?

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, Yesterday, 12:16.

[RS2000]

NVW 240C, discuss:

https://www.transpor...m/photo/rs00121

Who is in the photograph?

RGDS RLT

That car was bought by Mike Butler in 66. As far as I can tell it's not him in the photo. He was from Kent and used it on a few MN and other rallies. It was Soderstrom's works car in early 66 (the stripe was originally Swedish blue/yellow). It may have been Group 1 throughout its works life (hence 2 lights) but I'd have to check.

Butler had been a codriver for Vic Elford in the past who may have recommended that particular car to him as a "not too knackered" one to purchase.

Edited by RS2000, Yesterday, 16:14.

[Salsin]

Reverting to the original topic, namely NVW241C: as all the "old" photos on this thread seem to be no longer visible, here is my photo taken of the car on the Gwdyr 2 special stage of the 1966 RAC Rally.

Mike Dodman

[RS2000]

Great photo of 241. Not a widely used forest (but not many of them were back then) but worn and compacted surface from logging (as No.8, JC was 5th car on the road on the rally itself).

In the photo of 240, it probably is Mike Butler with hands on the spotlight. He wore spectacles very similar to the second figure in a photo of 240 in Jan67 starting No.1 on the Harold Sharp Rally in Kent (the only MN rally to be run in the south east).. The Sharp was the final round of the 66 MN Championship, despite being delayed and run in Jan 67.