52 replies to this topic

[mariner]

I was taught that the only proper electrical wiring joint was soldered one so despite my lack of soldering skills I have always tried to solder all critical connections e.g the ignition and starter wiring, and as many others as access permits.

However one of my Christmas presents was " Porsche 917 the undercover story " by Gordon Wingrove. It is BTW a brilliant book , one of the few single model racing books that has real technical detail and close up photos. Gordon Wingrove is now a Porsche writer but he was a Porsche 917 mechanic for the GW Gulf team. He explained that they avoided soldered joints wherever possible and preferred crimped ones. The logic being that (a) any point where something flexible ( the wire) is connected to something solid in a racing car is a sure fatigue point so crimping allows for a less sharp stress curve and(b) you cannot tell if all but one strands in a soldered joint is broken so it will fail even if you checked it.

Now JW Gulf were one of the all time great endurance race teams of all time so anything they practiced must have a lot of validity.

So which is best soldered or crimped?

I am ignoring the MIL spec stuff as I do not know anything about it although I assume it is the F1 standard,is it crimped?

[Fat Boy]

Crimped. No question.

All Mil-Spec stuff is crimped. Soldering might produce a marginally better electrical connection, but it produces a stiff point where the bending and stress is concentrated. That's where it'll break.

[McGuire]

Actually, it depends entirely on the type of terminal. Both automotive and MIL-spec terminations may call for crimped, soldered, or crimped and soldered depending on the application. The catalog and associated literature will call out what is required. With AMP-style solderless crimp connectors (the common auto parts-house things most people use) the correct procedure is to throw them as far as you can and get something decent.

What kind of terminals and connectors are you using? In most cases the most important thing is using exactly the specified crimping tool for the terminal style and gauge. A crimped and soldered terminal connection is generally better than crimped alone, except most people don't know how to solder properly and use too much. The solder then wicks up the braid, hardening the wire and making it prone to breakage like the Porsche deal is talking about. A proper solder joint does not extend beyond the terminal and cannot cause this problem. (Factory wiring harnesses are machine soldered.) In a crimp-and-solder connection, the crimp performs the mechanical connection while the solder performs the electrical connection. The problem with relying on the mechanical connection for both is oxidation. A proper solder joint is sealed to the atmosphere and cannot corrode.

I have found that the best terminal and connector system for road cars and sportsman racers is the Packard Weather-Pack and Metri-pack line. Reasonably priced, widely available, durable, weather-proof, and produces a professional-looking job. Best assembled crimp-and-solder but you can do well with crimping alone if you are careful about it.

[rhm]

When I left school I originally went and did an electronic engineering apprenticeship with GEC Avionics. Part of the training involved learning to put together wiring harnesses to the same standard the shop floor workers did, so we spent weeks learning the proper way to solder up the big round mil-spec connections the avionics units use, as well as how to bundle all the individual wires together and lace them up so they looked like a work of art.

The connectors were all soldered and since aircraft are a very hostile environment as far as vibration is concerned, I guess that was deemed acceptable. Anything that goes on a plane has to last a damn sight longer than anything on a racing car; although to be fair it doesn't have to be as reliable because everything is multiple redundant.

Each wire was individually heat-shrink sleeved at the terminal and then there's a soft synthetic rubber sleeve that goes around that so that when all the wires are bundled inside the connector shell they don't really move around. The wires are all PTFE insulated which is a bitch to strip (not allowed to use mechanical strippers for obvious reasons), but at least you don't have to worry about melting the insulation if you're a bit slack with the soldering iron. Having said that, they probably use lead-free solder now (melts at a higher temp), so maybe that's not true any more.

But if you're not using a 'system' like that, you are probably better off crimping. I mean, that's what they use on production car wiring harnesses isn't it?

[murpia]

Most modern connector series offer different contacts for either crimping or soldering. That suggests to me that either work if done properly according to the manufacturers procedures.

In my experience it's quicker and easier to crimp a contact with the correct crimp tool for that contact than to use the solder type, so I only buy the contacts designed for crimping. But for modern connector series, I would expect the relative reliabilities of the different approaches to be as follows (for a crimp contact):

Best: Crimp with correct tool
Solder instead of crimp with correct tool / Solder and crimp with incorrect tool
Worst: Crimp with incorrect tool

Never crimp a contact designed for soldering.

Without a strain relief boot either method can fracture either from vibration or from mishandling (usually the latter in my experience).

Regards, Ian

[McGuire]

Originally posted by rhm

But if you're not using a 'system' like that, you are probably better off crimping. I mean, that's what they use on production car wiring harnesses isn't it?

Production wiring harness terminations such as the Packard Weather-Pack, Metri-Pack, and Micro-Pack are crimped and soldered (by machine) in production. In service the accepted procedure is crimping plus soldering as well, unless the Packard precision crimping tool with gauge-calibrated mandrels is used, in which case crimping alone is acceptable.

However, I always solder using either type of Packard crimping tool -- I'm just picky that way. As I said earlier, the crimp provides the joint's mechanical strength while the solder provides and seals the electrical connection. After crimping, just a tiny dab of solder is required, no more. If you are feeding in enough solder to wick up the wire, that's ten times too much. And that's where people get into trouble with wires breaking, as with the Porsche example above.

This link illustrates the Packard Weather-Pack system pretty well. Most other OE wiring systems are similar in concept.

http://www.electerm....ardweather.html

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by McGuire
Actually, it depends entirely on the type of terminal. Both automotive and MIL-spec terminations may call for crimped, soldered, or crimped and soldered depending on the application.

I have found that the best terminal and connector system for road cars and sportsman racers is the Packard Weather-Pack and Metri-pack line. Reasonably priced, widely available, durable, weather-proof, and produces a professional-looking job. Best assembled crimp-and-solder but you can do well with crimping alone if you are careful about it.

You're right, there are plenty of solder terminals in mil-spec stuff. I wrote that off the cuff, and mis-spoke. I've built a lot of car harnesses as it used to be a significant portion of my business. The proper crimp stuff is unquestionably the way to go in my opinion, though. I made it a point to stay as far away from the solder stuff as I could even though I'd have to mess with it once in a while. When you're doing harness production, you don't make squat for money. The less time you have to spend with a tiny soldering iron the better. When I would do weather-pak connectors I'd put a tiny drop of solder on the tip of the wire upstream of the crimp. This was as much for the retaining quality of the solder as it was for the electrical connection, which says a lot. And, yes, I have all the correct crimps and dies.

Weather-Pak connectors have 2 things going for them in my book. They're cheap and they're available at the local auto parts store. That's it, though. They're not anything to write mom about, that's for damn sure. Even when done properly they have no wire strain relief, the terminals aren't scoop proof, they have a very low contact density, for the contact size it doesn't carry that much current, at best they're IP65 (I think) rated as far as water resistance, they don't work well with wire sizes that are used on modern racecars and they're kinda ugly. Also, they're only build to mate/unmate maybe a dozen times. Now, they'll work mating a bunch more than that, but that's what they're designed to do.

Now, for GM to stick on a truck and send off into the wild blue yonder, they're fine. They're not racecar material, though. They're also fine for a hot-rod, snowmobile or dune buggy. They're just not something you find on anything but a factory based sedan race class anymore.

For a lower-buck deal, Deutsch DTM connectors are much more common over the last 10 years or so. http://www.deutschconnector.com/ They use mil-spec contacts and are a much better connector as a whole. They aren't perfect. They certainly aren't autosport connectors like these http://www.deutsch.n...3&s=1&market=10 (although they are at the bottom of the list). If you need to build an electrical system for something like a club style racecar, they're a really good option.

[Bill Sherwood]

Originally posted by Fat Boy
Crimped. No question.

Correct - A good crimp connection will be better than any solder connection.

[crono33]

i disagree
crimped contacts will corrode and connection quality will deteriorate with time, with bad signal transmission in low-current applications, and hot spots and even melting in high current applications. crimping works decently only if everything is properly sealed. if dirt, moisture or water can get in, electrical junction between the wire and the crimped terminal >will< get bad.

the big advantage of crimping is that mechanically it is extremely good, and wires wont break at the junction between cable and terminal.

i prefer soldering AND crimping. but in alternative, soldering and sealing the junction between wire and the soldered terminal with heath shrink. this works really well, however wires must be tied properly with tie wraps. another solution i use in the case of connectors is to solder the terminals then apply a liberal dose of silicon glue or hot glue on the wires. this seals everything, and you can forget about that connector forever.

in critical applications i would go for soldering any time. true, the soldered wires can snap at the joint, but at least you can easily spot that. on the other side, a bad electrical contact between a wire and a crimped terminal can create any sort of problem, but is invisible to inspection and even difficult to test with multimeters and such.

i have 70 years old vacuum tube radios working perfectly. on the other side, 90% of the electrical troubles i have with my vehicles are due to corroded crimped terminals.

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood


Correct - A good crimp connection will be better than any solder connection.

[Bill Sherwood]

So it's the corrosion that's the problem and not the crimping?

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


Weather-Pak connectors have 2 things going for them in my book. They're cheap and they're available at the local auto parts store. That's it, though. They're not anything to write mom about, that's for damn sure. Even when done properly they have no wire strain relief, the terminals aren't scoop proof, they have a very low contact density, for the contact size it doesn't carry that much current, at best they're IP65 (I think) rated as far as water resistance, they don't work well with wire sizes that are used on modern racecars and they're kinda ugly. Also, they're only build to mate/unmate maybe a dozen times. Now, they'll work mating a bunch more than that, but that's what they're designed to do.

Now, for GM to stick on a truck and send off into the wild blue yonder, they're fine. They're not racecar material, though. They're also fine for a hot-rod, snowmobile or dune buggy. They're just not something you find on anything but a factory based sedan race class anymore.

For a lower-buck deal, Deutsch DTM connectors are much more common over the last 10 years or so. http://www.deutschconnector.com/ They use mil-spec contacts and are a much better connector as a whole. They aren't perfect. They certainly aren't autosport connectors like these http://www.deutsch.n...3&s=1&market=10 (although they are at the bottom of the list). If you need to build an electrical system for something like a club style racecar, they're a really good option.

I think you are confusing connector lines. Deutsch DTM and Packard Metri-Pack/Micro-Pack are functional equivalents to the identical SAE standard. Strain relief, weatherproofing, positivity, service couples, etc. etc. And close enough in appearance that folks can confuse them if they don't look closely. Both are inferior in sturdiness to the Weather-Pack but the Weather-Pack is bulkier -- which is I suppose what you mean about wire sizes. The Weather-Pack was made to accommodate up to 8 AWG and is what I think you may be visualizing.

I have nothing against Deutsch connectors at all but what I like about Packard-Delphi is the near-infinite variety of connector styles (one to 100+ pins) and choice of terminals: straight copper, tin-plated, silver-plated, gold-plated. I don't know what you mean about race cars. 43 cars will start the Daytona 500 next month with Packard-Delphi connectors on board.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by crono33
i disagree
crimped contacts will corrode and connection quality will deteriorate with time, with bad signal transmission in low-current applications, and hot spots and even melting in high current applications. crimping works decently only if everything is properly sealed. if dirt, moisture or water can get in, electrical junction between the wire and the crimped terminal >will< get bad.

Exactly right. Imagine a printed circuit board made entirely of crimped connections -- then left out in the weather. If that doesn't give you a shudder...

On cars we now have a number of signal circuits carrying tiny little currents, less than 100 mA. Ideally we don't really want ANY snap connectors in mid-harness if we can help it, but we still need terminals at the ends. An amount of oxidation on the terminal pins that is invisible to the naked eye can render it inoperative or perhaps even worse, intermittent, skewed, or noisy. The same goes for the connection between the terminal pin and the wire. If it is crimped it can oxidize. If it is soldered, it can't.

The amusing part about this electrical failure is if you go looking with a digital high-impedence multimeter you will find no problem. This is why I keep my old Simpson 200 analog meter around. You have to put some sock on the line to see any resistance or voltage drop.

And as you say, on high-current circuits... years ago, before we had weather-sealed connectors, you would often see this: a one-pin connector with spade terminals, for instance alternator B+ or high blower circuit or suchlike. Oxidation would build up between the male and female terminals and heat would rise until the plastic connector body melted. That failure is easy to find: an open circuit with a big glob of melted plastic in the middle of it. The fix there is to eliminate the connector and solder the two wires together. Then it can't fail.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood


Correct - A good crimp connection will be better than any solder connection.

A proper metal terminal connection is crimped and soldered. The crimp physically secures the terminal to the wire (and secures the weather seal to the wire if present -- weather sealed terminals have two crimps) while the solder secures and seals the electrical connection between the wire and the metal terminal.

This is by extension just an example of the old electrician's adage: every wiring connection must be examined two ways: mechanically and electrically. For example, when soldering two wires together without terminals, the wires must be properly looped, draped, or splinted. Two wires soldered together are far superior to two wires joined with terminals. With the latter you have three electrical connections to worry about. Of couse, a new piece of wire with no splices or connectors is even better.

[triplerotor]

A good crimp connection is going to be perferctly adequate for almost any application. The mechanical and electrical contact is basically assured by energy stored in the terminal and wire during crimping. But getting the right amount of compression relies on a lot of things, correct terminal, cable and tooling being the main ones obviously. In a high volume environment like car manufacture the correct QA controls can be in place to control those factors. In a cost no object environment like Mil/Areo/F1 everything can be controlled too.

Applications like low volume car assembly is where the danger lies, not every shop is going to be able to have the correct materials and tools to hand, the correct tools are expensive and wear. If the assembly staff are not well motivated anything will be used to effect the crimp, (top QA tip in cable assembly is to remove all pliers from the building!). I think the idea of wicking a small amount of solder into the crimp area is a good one for this type of applicaion. As long as solder and heat application is kept to a minimum you are basically stopping air getting into the contact areas, the main danger is corrosion from flux.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by McGuire


I think you are confusing connector lines.

http://www.repaircon...parentcat/23650

This is a Weather Pack, no? It's quite a bit different than a DTM.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by McGuire

I have nothing against Deutsch connectors at all but what I like about Packard-Delphi is the near-infinite variety of connector styles (one to 100+ pins) and choice of terminals: straight copper, tin-plated, silver-plated, gold-plated. I don't know what you mean about race cars. 43 cars will start the Daytona 500 next month with Packard-Delphi connectors on board.

And those cars will also have a bunch of SAE graded bolts and be without data acquisition systems, too. They'll run Moog ball joints, MSD ignitions and 'fruit jar' brake master cylinders. Let's not hold NASCAR up as the end all be all of racecars, OK? I hold them in pretty high opinion overall, but the cutting edge of racing electronics they are not.

You'll find many fewer cars this month at Daytona starting the 24 Hour race with Weather Packs. I suppose the odd tail-light here or there may have Weather Packs, but for the most part, everything will be Autosport or Mil-spec cannon plugs.

In March at Sebring, I'd be surprised if you see any Weather Pack style connectors. I suppose it's possible the P&M uses some just because of their GM connections and the fact that they use some OEM sensors. You damn sure aren't going to see them on an Audi or Acura.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


http://www.repaircon...parentcat/23650

This is a Weather Pack, no? It's quite a bit different than a DTM.

Yes, that is Weather-Pack. And as I said, there is also Metri-Pack and Micro-Pack. Also 064, GT, Ducon, and a few other types. The point is that pretty much anything you can get in Deutsch you can also get in Delphi-Packard. (Actually more.) Mechanically the connector types work a bit differently internally but the overall quality and form factor are the same. They are validated to the same EPA/USCAR/etc specs. Some connectors are even interchangeable -- in the sense that they plug into the same components: Bosch, Siemens, Hitachi etc. EV6, V2, and V4 standards and so on.

Though I prefer Packard because I know the system in and out and it is lots cheaper/easier to get here in the USA, I would never say it is in a clear sense superior to DTM, because it is not. Just as it would also be ridiculous to say DTM is superior to Packard, which is where you came in.

Here is the catalog:

http://connectors.de...oadCatalog.aspx

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


And those cars will also have a bunch of SAE graded bolts and be without data acquisition systems, too. They'll run Moog ball joints, MSD ignitions and 'fruit jar' brake master cylinders. Let's not hold NASCAR up as the end all be all of racecars, OK? I hold them in pretty high opinion overall, but the cutting edge of racing electronics they are not.

You'll find many fewer cars this month at Daytona starting the 24 Hour race with Weather Packs. I suppose the odd tail-light here or there may have Weather Packs, but for the most part, everything will be Autosport or Mil-spec cannon plugs.

In March at Sebring, I'd be surprised if you see any Weather Pack style connectors. I suppose it's possible the P&M uses some just because of their GM connections and the fact that they use some OEM sensors. You damn sure aren't going to see them on an Audi or Acura.

My point was not that it's the best in the world. Point was if it's good enough for NASCAR it's certainly good enough for most any club racing application. And we already know it's totally validated for road use. You will probably not agree with this either, but for the most part the road is a harsher environment than racing... heat being one possible exception.

In my opinion, only a moron would use MIL-spec cannon connectors on a road car where one was not forced to. That is just asinine. I am not paying $35 for a four-pin Bendix connector or $140 for a 26-pin passthrough (and the terminals are a buck apiece) to put on a road car. McLaren spends $200M to build three cars a year but I don't. That is totally wasted money for street use with no benefit in performance or durability. The same for Autosport at least as I see it. Especially if you are not even going to solder the terminals, WTF. To me that makes about as much sense as slip-on fake braided hose.

[Peter Leversedge]

I am a ex mechanic and have been installing mobile communications equipment and taxi meters in vehicles since 1996.
I like to use Hella terminals etc and use ratchet crimp tools. I also solder as well as crimp terminals that are located at the battery. I do not join cables if possible and if I need to do so I solder the joint.
I am not saying that what I do is 100% correct but it is what I find works well for me and do not have any in service problems
Peter Leversedge
Novax Taxi Meter Sales & Service

[Canuck]

I'm not sure who supplied the connectors (and/or the training) to Indian Motorcycle's last venture but to say they were **** is an understatement. We'd find melted headlight connectors, melted, crimped, heat-shrunk connectors on the spot lights and my favourite - broken ignition module connections held together (sort of) by the heatshrink and not the solder. Those bikes were a mix of connector styles, methods and quality - proof that irrespective of the style, if the assembler isn't doing their thing correctly, it's all ****. 'Course, a failed connection at the headlight, while not amusing at night, wasn't usually as catastrophic as the missing piston pin clips courtesy of PAS, or the snapping crankshafts courtesy of who knows.

When I worked for Harley, they switched up to DT/DTM around '96 I believe. A vast improvement over their previous supplier. Those are the only "nice" connector I'm familiar with today, and I've used them on a handful of motorcycle harnesses (I'd venture a lumpy old, rigid-mounted V-twin beats pretty much everything for vibration) with great success. You used to be able to find the parts from Harley ($$$) or through Caterpillar ($$) and through wholesalers like Wurth. Their biggest plus, to me, was the ability to strip the connector housing off so that things like internally-wired handlebars could be removed from the bike without having to take the top triple-tree (through which the wires ran, but connector would pass through) with them.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by McGuire


My point was not that it's the best in the world. Point was if it's good enough for NASCAR it's certainly good enough for most any club racing application. And we already know it's totally validated for road use. You will probably not agree with this either, but for the most part the road is a harsher environment than racing... heat being one possible exception.

In my opinion, only a moron would use MIL-spec cannon connectors on a road car where one was not forced to. That is just asinine. I am not paying $35 for a four-pin Bendix connector or $140 for a 26-pin passthrough (and the terminals are a buck apiece) to put on a road car. McLaren spends $200M to build three cars a year but I don't. That is totally wasted money for street use with no benefit in performance or durability. The same for Autosport at least as I see it. Especially if you are not even going to solder the terminals, WTF. To me that makes about as much sense as slip-on fake braided hose.

Well, define good enough. If you mean it clicks together and carries the electrons, then yes, it's good enough. A used condom does the job as well, but that doesn't mean it's the preferred tool for the job.

I like using OEM road car sensors. They have to go through massive validation tests and they're produced in volumes that brings the price down. The connectors are a little bit of a different story. Generally speaking, they're designed to be used with wire that is too big. On a racecar they end up not working well because you use 24-26 ga wire (sometimes smaller) for most things. It's just not a good fit for big clunky connectors and the contacts they use. If you are using a Weather Pack with small wire, you damn well better solder it, because the crimp isn't doing ****. If you like those connectors, bully for you. I don't and I don't know a pro wiring guy who does.

Running 100,000 miles on the street is a tough job indeed. What seems to be tougher is getting out of the raceshop without a wire draped over a sharp edge of carbon or AL. It's also tough to not get the mechanics to string the stuff tight as a guitar string, completely hanging out in the breeze or touching the exhaust. The biggest hardship that racing electrical systems have to deal with is constantly being pulled apart and stuck back together again. Generally, they're designed well enough to handle the other stuff, but it all comes back to the human element. It's why good mechanics are worth their weight in gold.

I do very little street car work, but the last bit I did was putting a Crane ignition on my hot rod. I used a DTM. The connector was something like $8 per side and the contacts retail for about a buck a piece (I bought them for about 1/2 that because I bought a lot). Somehow I think I'll recover from $28 out of my pocket.

I love the comment about not soldering the Autosport connector contacts. It puts your view of the matter into perspective so much better than anything I could have written. It really is priceless.

Back to the NASCAR thing for a second.

1. Genuine question. How many electrical connectors are on a Nextel Cup racecar (as opposed to test car)? It can't be very many....ignition, several fans, radio, drink bottle, cool suit, etc. No ECU and no data system/telemetry. That eliminates a bunch. The relative importance of each connection is relatively low. The car will finish the race with damn near all of them broken (ignition excepted, of course). The same cannot be said for most professional racecars.

2. Less genuine question. How often do they have to deal with rain?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Fat Boy
Well, define good enough. If you mean it clicks together and carries the electrons, then yes, it's good enough. A used condom does the job as well, but that doesn't mean it's the preferred tool for the job.

Reminds me of the old joke...

Whats the difference between a Good Year and very, very Good Year?? Well, one involves 365 used condoms and the other is about an old car tire (tyre)!!

I am enjoying this thread but I have disqualified myself from commenting...I spent way too many hours wrestling with MIL-STD connectors and tracking down faults...there was this one connector that had hundreds of connections (but I digress)

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


I like using OEM road car sensors. They have to go through massive validation tests and they're produced in volumes that brings the price down. The connectors are a little bit of a different story. Generally speaking, they're designed to be used with wire that is too big. On a racecar they end up not working well because you use 24-26 ga wire (sometimes smaller) for most things. It's just not a good fit for big clunky connectors and the contacts they use. If you are using a Weather Pack with small wire, you damn well better solder it, because the crimp isn't doing ****. If you like those connectors, bully for you. I don't and I don't know a pro wiring guy who does.

The connectors go through the same very same tests and meet the very same SAE, USCAR, etc standards.

If the terminal does not fit the wire you are using the wrong terminal. Standard Weather-Pack terminals are available in 12 AWG to 22 AWG. For smaller wire gauges Metri-Pack and Micro-Pack are in order.

This is where you got spun out from the start -- assuimg I was talking only about Weather-Pack, or assuming that Weather-Pack is the only Packard connector system.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Fat Boy



Well, define good enough. If you mean it clicks together and carries the electrons, then yes, it's good enough. A used condom does the job as well, but that doesn't mean it's the preferred tool for the job.

To me, good enough includes soldering the connections when called for. As I see it, the components are irrelevant when sub-standard assembly is employed.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by triplerotor
A good crimp connection is going to be perferctly adequate for almost any application. The mechanical and electrical contact is basically assured by energy stored in the terminal and wire during crimping.

I have to disagree with you about that. Where I live, at this moment the temperature is minus four F, sleet is blowing sideways and the salt trucks are running. A crimped-only connection is far from ideal here.

With a crimp, there is nothing to prevent oxidation or any other contamination from getting between the wire and terminal (or into the wire strands). But with a properly soldered joint, there is no way anything is ever getting between the wire and the terminal. The electrical connection between them is hermetically sealed, essentially forever.

One of the interesting things that can happen with salt intrusion, both in the road salt belt and in ocean climates: salt water gets into the connectors and not only attacks the terminals, but if it can get to a bit of exposed wire braid, it will wick down the wire through the braid or between the braid and the insulation. (Water can easily travel though wire several feet.) The salt water then pools at the bottom of a drape in the harness and eats the wire in two, but without harming the insulation. (Which is salt-proof, naturally.) The result is an open circuit in a length of wire that appears to be in perfect shape with no physical intrusion. But if the weather seal is properly installed on the wire and terminal and the connection is soldered, there is no exposed braid and it can't happen.

[mariner]

All the info put up on this thread has been very useful so thank you.

It so happens that this thread has co-incided with my latest copy of the Uk Demon Tweeks catalogue, for non Uk people thay arethe biggest of three main Motorsport mail order houses in the UK. They now list "MIL spec" type connectors ( a brand called Souriau). One five pin connector and ten wires , pre crimped is about £100/$150.

I sometimes think that because all this special motorsport stuff is now available it gets used and that is a big element in the cost explosion in racing at all levels.

I can see the need for this sort of gear if low voltage sensor currents are being carried but going back to the JW Gulf team they didnt use it and their cars lasted 24 hours again and again, or course the systems were simpler but they did have full lighting systems and they had ABS on test so they were not that simple. However apparently only the chief mechanic/electrician was allowed to touch the system which re-inforces the diassemly and re assembly risks mentioned above.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by crono33


i have 70 years old vacuum tube radios working perfectly. on the other side, 90% of the electrical troubles i have with my vehicles are due to corroded crimped terminals.

I was meaning to ask: what kind of old radios are you into? Me, vintage American consumer radios -- battery regenerative and early AC superhets, stuff like that. The oldest is a Radiola III, and I also have a few Atwater Kents, Crosleys, a Freshman; the newest is a Zenith.

I mainly got into old radios via osmosis from my old man, who is a very serious restorer/collector/trader. He is an old school radioman, 79 now. Searches out bizzare radio designs, builds his own vacuum tubes. Lately he has been talking about "getting the internet." If so I hope he doesn't find this thread or there will be hell to pay. In his house if you couldn't solder anything by age 10, put a dress on him, he must be a girl. Looks like a boy but I guess we made a mistake. Actually that's not really true. All my sisters could solder too.

[McGuire]

One important thing to know about Deutsch DTM connectors that from what I have seen on many installations is often overlooked: since this connector series was designed to streamline applications and inventories --- that was the central principle behind it -- DTM has one standardized pin size regardless of the wire gauge. That is, all DTM terminals are the same configuration and diameter at the mating (male/female) ends, and at the wire ends are designed to take 16, 18, or 20 AWG wire (though terminals with different crimp diameters are available to accomodate various insulation types, which is nice). Or 20 to 24 gauge with solid as opposed to hollow pins.

This is a great feature and makes life easier for both parts departments and technicians, but it also imposes this important limitation: the maximum rated current capacity for the DTM series is 7.5 amperes, period, regardless of wire size used etc. Simply put, that means DTM is not for headlamps, fuel pumps, cooling fans, blowers, A/C clutches, some high-energy ignition systems, or in any other circuits where the current load may exceed 7.5 amperes. If you are using Deutsch connectors in these applications you need to step up to the DT or DTP series. While 10 feet of 16 AWG wire carries a load rating of 18 amperes, the DTM connector and terminals are limited to 7.5 amperes.

Again, I am not knocking Deutsch or DTM in any way -- just something to keep in mind.

[Fat Boy]

True, if you want to pump real current through them, you have to go with the power series.

[Tony Matthews]

Very shortly into the life of the Ilmor Chevrolet 265A 'proper' ignition and injection looms were introduced and I remember Paul Morgan telling me that this was not too well accepted initially, as customers were suddenly subjected to another $**** cost. "It's a bit of a shock when they're used to $1's worth of bell-wire!"

[Fat Boy]

Things haven't changed much.

[McGuire]

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Peter Leversedge
I am a ex mechanic and have been installing mobile communications equipment and taxi meters in vehicles since 1996.
I like to use Hella terminals etc and use ratchet crimp tools. I also solder as well as crimp terminals that are located at the battery. I do not join cables if possible and if I need to do so I solder the joint.
I am not saying that what I do is 100% correct but it is what I find works well for me and do not have any in service problems
Peter Leversedge
Novax Taxi Meter Sales & Service

Back in the day Hella was known for using 260 brass for all the terminal connections (aka cartridge brass). Quality stuff, distinctive, easy to spot. The fuse blocks were black bakelite and used ye olde DIN 6x25 Continental fuses.

There was this expensive German car back then in which the battery tray was on the firewall, right over the the driver's footwell where the fuse block resided. Guess what happened when the battery leaked or gassed. That's right: fuse block, bulkhead connector, and wiring harness filled with sulfuric acid and then eaten alive. What a mess.

[Greg Locock]

The other thing you can do with small pins is to use several to carry your big currents. Space them out around the connector to stop overheating.

[crono33]

i loved old radios since i was a kid. at age 12 i was collecting all the electronic stuff i could and either fixing (trying at least!) or cannibalizing all the components. i still have a few thousands of them.

back then i could get old radios for free. i had a few good working ones, then my dad decided to get rid of all the "garbage" in my room and got rid of them.

now i have some 10 radios i bough from ebay, mostly english and german stuff, and i am very slowly restoring the electronics, trying to use original components. i have a 1950 marconi that only required changing the cloth in front of the speaker, works beautifully.

last one i have restored was quite tricky, is a 1934 kolster and brandes i couldnt find it in any catalog, probably a model produced in very few units. regenerative circuitry, medium and long waves, no transformer, the main resistor was shot so i modified it with an external transformer for safety. works perfectly, will post a few pictures when i go back home

back to wires and terminals, i think crimped wires are also a perfect environment for galvanic corrosion.

Originally posted by McGuire


I was meaning to ask: what kind of old radios are you into? Me, vintage American consumer radios -- battery regenerative and early AC superhets, stuff like that. The oldest is a Radiola III, and I also have a few Atwater Kents, Crosleys, a Freshman; the newest is a Zenith.

I mainly got into old radios via osmosis from my old man, who is a very serious restorer/collector/trader. He is an old school radioman, 79 now. Searches out bizzare radio designs, builds his own vacuum tubes. Lately he has been talking about "getting the internet." If so I hope he doesn't find this thread or there will be hell to pay. In his house if you couldn't solder anything by age 10, put a dress on him, he must be a girl. Looks like a boy but I guess we made a mistake. Actually that's not really true. All my sisters could solder too.

[scooperman]

Got a call to hurry up and get out to the site, dammit. Some of your equipment is malfunctioning. Big cheese types are unhappy. We hurried out there and started going over everything. We found that on every one of the racks of equipment, the other contractors had decided that they needed to strain-relieve the junk cables they had on their gear. They used all of our cables as the strain reliefs for their cables, they pulled something tight and busted one of our cables. We cut all their loops off our cables, replaced our busted cable. Okay, we're good, fire it up.
Anyway, getting back to race cars, I like the MIL-spec Bendix/Cannon stuff but its too expensive, so for race car stuff I use the Tyco/AMP CPC circular thermoplastic connectors. Familiar tools, crimp style contacts and solder style contacts available. Not too expensive, easy to find at catalog companies like Mouser or DigiKey.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by crono33


last one i have restored was quite tricky, is a 1934 kolster and brandes i couldnt find it in any catalog, probably a model produced in very few units. regenerative circuitry, medium and long waves, no transformer, the main resistor was shot so i modified it with an external transformer for safety. works perfectly, will post a few pictures when i go back home

I have never seen or heard of one, can't wait to see it.

Here is a 1924 Radiola III. Not shown are the two WD11 tubes which are very rare -- I have two sweet ones with very low microphonics wrapped up and put away. (UX120/199 or 864 can be adapted.) The vacuum tubes are triodes; one is the detector and the other is the audio amplifier. The "station selector" lever is simply the tuner, of course. Variable inductance rather than boring old variable capacitance. The control is rather arbitrarily marked 1 through 10 but actually operates from around 500 to 1600 kHz... which is roughly the modern AM radio band in North America. The four thumb nuts at upper right allow you to swap antenna configurations and fixed capacitors in and out to pull in the whole frequency range.

The "amplification" lever at left operates the regenerative circuit, as you know. For AM you push it to the ragged edge of RF oscillation. The audio amplifier can push headphones real good or a small high-impedance loudspeaker okay on a local signal. There was also an optional two-tube push-pull amplifier in a separate, matching mahogany box. I have one but it is in poor cosmetic condition, some jerk in olden times having painted the case flat black. The set was also available with both units in one box with four tubes, which is then called a Radiola IIIA.

The radio takes lots 'o batteries to operate: one 1.5V cell for the filaments, a 90V B battery (two 45s or 4 22.5s in series) for the plates, and a 4.5V C battery for the bias. The control at upper left is a rheostat for adjusting the filament voltage. It's fun to fiddle with but since there is nothing worth listening to on AM it mainly just sits in the bookcase. What can I say. I like to look at black bakelite and nickel plating.

[zac510]

Originally posted by mariner
It so happens that this thread has co-incided with my latest copy of the Uk Demon Tweeks catalogue, for non Uk people thay arethe biggest of three main Motorsport mail order houses in the UK. They now list "MIL spec" type connectors ( a brand called Souriau). One five pin connector and ten wires , pre crimped is about £100/$150.

I sometimes think that because all this special motorsport stuff is now available it gets used and that is a big element in the cost explosion in racing at all levels.

It's a while since I've had a project/rebuild type car and since then I've done a lot of poking around at international motorsport. The standard of cars across lots of disciplines has raised my own standard too. If I build another car it will be hard to not try and build it to a higher standard as I learn more about them. I don't think that's a bad thing!

Perhaps the prices of these items should be coming down with time and use but it's not? Easy to slap a 'motorsport' premium on it I guess.

[mariner]

Reference the Radios etc. one of my sons is big into building and repairing electric Guitars mainly ( of course ) Fenders. I have to admire Leo Fender , what he produced was really remarkable. It was so simple and solid that
the design of the Stratocaster has taken the abuse, accidental and deliberate, of muscians for decades. Plus it gave us Jimi Hendrix!

I think the underlying technology must be the AT+T phone system circa 1950 from looking at one but it can be tweaked to produce amazing sounds. It is also infinitely rebuildable. Quite a product.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
Very shortly into the life of the Ilmor Chevrolet 265A 'proper' ignition and injection looms were introduced and I remember Paul Morgan telling me that this was not too well accepted initially, as customers were suddenly subjected to another $**** cost. "It's a bit of a shock when they're used to $1's worth of bell-wire!"

Not including the plug leads, there was one wire on an Offy roadster: the magneto cutoff. The tach, oil pressure and water temp gauges were mechanical.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by mariner


It so happens that this thread has co-incided with my latest copy of the Uk Demon Tweeks catalogue, for non Uk people thay arethe biggest of three main Motorsport mail order houses in the UK. They now list "MIL spec" type connectors ( a brand called Souriau). One five pin connector and ten wires , pre crimped is about £100/$150.

I sometimes think that because all this special motorsport stuff is now available it gets used and that is a big element in the cost explosion in racing at all levels.

All I know about Demon Tweeks is that a copy of the catalog used to come poly-bagged with my subscription to Race Car Engineering. My recollection could well be out-of-date or just grumpy, but I remember the stuff as being a bit boy-racerish and way overpriced. I could well be totally wrong.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by McGuire


All I know about Demon Tweeks is that a copy of the catalog used to come poly-bagged with my subscription to Race Car Engineering. My recollection could well be out-of-date or just grumpy, but I remember the stuff as being a bit boy-racerish and way overpriced. I could well be totally wrong.

Pretty much like Race Car Engineering, then. I remember feeling the same when when looking through it. Kind of a flashy version of J.C. Whitney.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by McGuire
The radio takes lots 'o batteries to operate: one 1.5V cell for the filaments, a 90V B battery (two 45s or 4 22.5s in series) for the plates, and a 4.5V C battery for the bias. The control at upper left is a rheostat for adjusting the filament voltage. It's fun to fiddle with but since there is nothing worth listening to on AM it mainly just sits in the bookcase. What can I say. I like to look at black bakelite and nickel plating.

Probably sacrilege..but here goes...seeing as you have a decent collection...why not set yourself up with some suitable fixed and/or variable mains powered DC supplies to run your radios...then just have the batteries for shows or outings etc

[McGuire]

Sure, battery eliminators are nearly as old as the radios, valued antiques in themselves. Very rare today though. Once AC sets took off there was little reason for people to keep them. They don't look like much -- just a metal box with some wires sticking out -- so they were mainly thrown out or ended up in radio shops where they were used to death or stripped for parts. One popular brand of battery eliminator in the USA was Galvin, which soon went into the car radio business (very early, by 1930) and eventually changed its name to Motorola.

But new battery eliminators with more modern solid-state components are very easy to design and build -- ideal projects for amateur radio enthusiasts. Everyone has their own pet idea, etc. And as you say, it sure beats keeping a bunch of messy, expensive batteries around.

....More useless but possibly interesting trivia...the above-mentioned Galvin Mfg. Co. was formed by brothers Paul and Joseph Galvin of Chicago. With Bill Smith, Paul's son Bob Galvin is the originator of Six Sigma. One of Galvin's early engineers/partners/patent assignors was Bill Lear, who (with Earl Madman Muntz) later developed the 8-track stereo tape cartridge and then of course the Lear Jet.

The 8-track cartridge was based on the form factor of the 4-track cartridge, which was invented about a mile or so from where I am typing this by Bernie Cousino and George Eash, in the back of Bernie's electronics business. Bernie Cousino and Herbert Orr invented their own superior stereo cart format called Orrtronic, but it proved to be the Betamax of the car stereo biz. Orrtronic was backed by Champion Spark Plug, while 8-track was backed by Ford Motor Co.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by McGuire
Sure, battery eliminators are nearly as old as the radios, valued antiques in themselves. Very rare today though. Once AC sets took off there was little reason for people to keep them. They don't look like much -- just a metal box with some wires sticking out -- so they were mainly thrown out or ended up in radio shops where they were used to death or stripped for parts. One popular brand of battery eliminator in the USA was Galvin, which soon went into the car radio business (very early, by 1930) and eventually changed its name to Motorola.

But new battery eliminators with more modern solid-state components are very easy to design and build -- ideal projects for amateur radio enthusiasts. Everyone has their own pet idea, etc. And as you say, it sure beats keeping a bunch of messy, expensive batteries around.

....More useless but possibly interesting trivia...the above-mentioned Galvin Mfg. Co. was formed by brothers Paul and Joseph Galvin of Chicago. With Bill Smith, Paul's son Bob Galvin is the originator of Six Sigma. One of Galvin's early engineers/partners/patent assignors was Bill Lear, who (with Earl Madman Muntz) later developed the 8-track stereo tape cartridge and then of course the Lear Jet.

The 8-track cartridge was based on the form factor of the 4-track cartridge, which was invented about a mile or so from where I am typing this by Bernie Cousino and George Eash, in the back of Bernie's electronics business. Bernie Cousino and Herbert Orr invented their own superior stereo cart format called Orrtronic, but it proved to be the Betamax of the car stereo biz. Orrtronic was backed by Champion Spark Plug, while 8-track was backed by Ford Motor Co.

Fascinating stuff coming from a grease-monkey engine guy mate!!

Six Sigma...sends shivers down my spine for a whole bunch of reasons I will not go into here :

I'm so glad you didn't have to work on the high power applications of valve technology I had to...3000 volts and glass toobs is so damn frightening

But back to radio...I have a soft spot for these puppies...

http://www.shlrc.mq....museum/B40.html

[McGuire]

Wow, now there is a radio. Just look at that thing. Cast aluminum chassis, built like a watch. It can all be done on a couple of IC chips these days but it's just not the same, is it?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by McGuire
Wow, now there is a radio. Just look at that thing. Cast aluminum chassis, built like a watch. It can all be done on a couple of IC chips these days but it's just not the same, is it?

We have a saying over here about British electronic equipment from that period..."looks like it was carved out of a solid block!" (but you can use that line for some of their reciprocating efforts as well)...they were a bit of a nightmare to repair but often very reliable.

I'm sure you could pick up a B40 on fleabay/war surplus store...otherwise, PM me, if really that interested

[crono33]

finally home after 2 weeks offsite upgrading a large server
here the pics of the radio, 1934 circa, according to the little documentation i have found

the resistor is only fake, must change that white cable with something more antique looking, id like to source a wooden box of the same era to put the external transformer in.

the wooden case is a piece of art, the bottom is movable for access to the electronics underneath. i am not sure ill restore the wood, i like the worn feeling.

i had to change a few tubes, they are original old new stock ( or was new old...)

all electrolitic caps were shot, i tried to use good quality old style ones. they are underneath anyway, cant be seen. the radio needs a large aerian and a earth connection but works great.

amazing how just a decade makes a huge difference, going from the "contraptionish" look of the Radiola to this one that looks like a radio.

[crono33]

uuhhmm also need to get rid of that plastic tie wrap :-)

this radio probably was originally battery powered and then adapted to mains. 2 tubes have 45 V filaments, 2 have 5v filaments. HT was direct from mains. a death trap, the frame was live when powered, thats why removing the back cover would disconnect totally the power from the radio.

i will post a scan of the circuitry i have found, which is not of this specific model but of a similar one, with 3 bands instead of 2, same "power supply" scheme, same wooden case

http://www.nnrm.net/...info/KB 430.htm


here at page 8 a old picture taken inside the KB factory..

http://www.nortelpen...autumn_1997.pdf

[McGuire]

That's a very interesting set. You made the right call on not refinishing the cabinet. It looks great the way it is and just as with furniture, radios are far more valuable in the original finish.

... one trick on old wax capacitors is to just turn the set on and leave it on for a few days. The heat will boil the moisture out and often bring them back.