63 replies to this topic

[Whitney Paine]

Just finished a project to design the bodywork and former/buck for a racer that will be competing in an Aston Martin racing programme. Bodywork construction started today. To say I am happy with the outcome is an understatement...although I appreciate that beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Pictures and links to pictures below and I would like to thank Andy Mitchell of Mitchell Motors in Wiltshire for allowing me to post the pictures on the forum. He will be competing later this year.

Start to finish of the project was 2/3 months.

The pictures show what the bodywork will look like and the former created to make the bodywork in virtual and real life.

Estimated time saving for Andy will be 35%. Accuracy massively improved. If car is crashed, he has the ability to recreate the bodywork exactly as it was before.

"Virtual" finished buck.


Finished buck in real life.


"Virtual" bodywork as it will look when car created in the flesh...colour to be decided.


Real buck/former - close up rear view.
http://i264.photobuc...-manipulate.jpg

"Virtual" tubular chassis.
http://i264.photobuc...ame-VS1copy.jpg

"Virtual" bodywork with tubular chassis added.


"Virtual" rear view of bodywork.


Real buck - corner close up.


Virtual corner close up....very close I reckon...as you would expect.


Real hoop former.
http://i264.photobuc.....g car/b11.jpg

Real view over front of buck.
http://i264.photobuc.....g car/b13.jpg

[David Birchall]

Very attractive bodywork-well done--does it really have a space frame?

[Whitney Paine]

Yes, it does have a spaceframe.

The spaceframe was created as the first step to ensure the body would not snag the car inner architecture, whilst also hugging the chassis as close as possible.

[cpbell]

Very nice! The former has a look reminiscent of the body used on the DB W125 at Avus in '37 I reckon.

[SWB]

Amazing! Well done, it body looks beautiful, but the buck is fascinating as well.

Steve

[Stephen W]

What series is it racing in & when?

[RTH]

Superb high quality work.

[Bloggsworth]

Don't you just love CNC routers........................

[Whitney Paine]

Originally posted by Stephen W
What series is it racing in & when?

It will be racing in an Aston Martin Owners Club classic series. The car will be finished in 3-4 months.

To show a bit more what can be achieved, I have added a couple of pictures below with the body made transparent showing in one case the buck underneath and the other the tubular chassis.

[Stephen W]

Certainly a beautiful body and should be relatively lightweight.

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
Don't you just love CNC routers........................

Excellent handiwork of which you are justifiably proud. It just makes one wonder how all those chaps managed years ago before these computer things did it all for you, especially the small operations where they sourced, produced, matched and built all the components themselves. The joy of progress, I suppose.
Roger Lund

[Mistron]

Originally posted by bradbury west

Excellent handiwork of which you are justifiably proud. It just makes one wonder how all those chaps managed years ago before these computer things did it all for you, especially the small operations where they sourced, produced, matched and built all the components themselves. The joy of progress, I suppose.
Roger Lund

Not that many years ago! I've posted this before, but it makes an interseting comparison -

http://myweb.tiscali...andora/body.htm

I had fun doing it the old fashined way, with black tape, but what i'd have given to be able to use a computer to do it!

Great looking car - what mechanicals will it be based on?

[Whitney Paine]

Mutual respect!

[Jones Foyer]

Very cool.

Pretty looking car.

[RTH]

Originally posted by bradbury west

.......It just makes one wonder how all those chaps managed years ago before these computer things did it all for you, especially the small operations where they sourced, produced, matched and built all the components themselves. The joy of progress, I suppose.
Roger Lund

TNF member Peter Ross built the body buck for the Lotus mark VIII ( also known as the P3 ) in the same 'egg box' type plywood construction for Colin Chapman in the Hornsey factory in 1954 using just hand tools at night. It then went to Williams & Pritchard for the highly complex curved bodywork to be hand rolled and welded in aluminium. Detailed in his book 'Lotus the early years '.

[Jones Foyer]

Originally posted by bradbury west

Excellent handiwork of which you are justifiably proud. It just makes one wonder how all those chaps managed years ago before these computer things did it all for you, especially the small operations where they sourced, produced, matched and built all the components themselves. The joy of progress, I suppose.
Roger Lund

When I was going to design school, one of the things I learned in my first term (from
Strother Macminn ) was lofting: making sections in three views of a complex organic shape. Lofting came from boat hull designs and then went into car body design.

MacMinn designed this car and had it built using the technique:

Road and Track Le Mans coupe

[Lotus23]

Stuart, your creativity amazes me!

55 years ago, toiling over my drafting table with T-square and triangle, I never could've imagined work like yours being accomplished.

Just brilliant, my friend!

[Tony Matthews]

Well done Whitney, a nice looking body, and I can fully appreciate your excitement at the prospect of seeing your creation in the metal. To me, though, Mistron's work is more pertinent because it was done the traditional way, and although I don't consider myself a Luddite I just don't get any pleasure from working on a computer.

I've only done one piece of three-dimentional design, like so many things I've done, simply because I was asked to - I'm a push-over, basically - and dropped in at the deep end I had to rely on skills developed as an aero-modeller!

The late, much-missed Paul Morgan called me one afternoon, I asumed to talk about an illustration, but it was a request to change the rear-end of his Talbot single-seater, originally a large saloon, to make it more elegant. He had cut-and-shut the rear of the chassis to enable the fitting of a tapered tail, and would I have a go? "It's probably only a day's work for you, Tony!" He supplied me with a 1/8 scale chassis drawing and, er , nothing else. He wanted it to look GP Talbot-ish, so I checked some books and a part-work and set to.

I drew an outline on his side-elevation, and some sections on his chassis sections, but after a couple of days realised that I needed to see it in the round. I also wanted something I could show Paul that would have more impact than a side-view. I made a 1/8 card model, complete with foam-board and gummed brow-paper wheels and set off for Brixwoth. He was happy with what I had to show him, and after I had supplied his body shop with full-size sections and a set of sketches that showed the 'skin' over the formers, there was nothing to do but wait.

Five years, to be precise!

Hopfully, pics to follow!

[Bloggsworth]

Originally posted by Jones Foyer


When I was going to design school, one of the things I learned in my first term (from
Strother Macminn ) was lofting: making sections in three views of a complex organic shape. Lofting came from boat hull designs and then went into car body design.

The sail loft was the largest area of clear floor in shipbuilders yards, large enough to cut the largest sail, so the hull cross-sections were laid out on the loft floor, hence Lofting - Don't you just love the way language develops.

[Tony Matthews]

A mid-body half section

[Tony Matthews]

Sections later enlarged to full size.

[Tony Matthews]

Photo of card model

[Tony Matthews]

Sketch based on model to show 'skin'

[Tony Matthews]

Same view, full-size at last!

[Tony Matthews]

[Tony Matthews]

Nearly there, I promise!

[Tony Matthews]

The finished project, only slightly different to the original design. Sorry the illustrations are so large, finger trouble.

[anbeck]

Wow, impressive!

Do you have any pics of the actual moulding process? I still haven't the faintest idea how the bodywork is actually shaped to make it that smooth...

[D-Type]

Originally posted by anbeck
Wow, impressive!

Do you have any pics of the actual moulding process? I still haven't the faintest idea how the bodywork is actually shaped to make it that smooth...

I think they probably use an English Wheel rather than hammer and anvil.

[Tony Matthews]

Originally posted by D-Type
I think they probably use an English Wheel rather than hammer and anvil.

I was sure anbeck was talking about Whitney's computer imagery, not Paul Morgans car! If I'm wrong then, yes, the brilliantly simple, elegant English Wheel. I have other photographs of the aluminium body under construction but none of the wheel being used.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by anbeck
Wow, impressive!

Do you have any pics of the actual moulding process? I still haven't the faintest idea how the bodywork is actually shaped to make it that smooth...

It's not all that different from what we used to do at Specialised Mouldings, though of course that was to make a buck to take moulds from, to end up with fibreglass bodies, not metal ones as in this case. We usually started with ply formers, all cut about half an inch undersize, and fairly roughly band-sawed for the most part. We covered these with flexible wood laths nailed to the formers, and then put a skin of fibreglass mat over that. The workmanship was only as good as it needed to be where the woodwork was concerned, it wasn't cabinet-making. Joints had to be made accurately to keep everything rigid, but it was the cured fibreglass that the real work was done on, endless applications of microballoons and P-38 polyester filler, and finally a surfacing resin. As Pete and Dave kept reminding their employees, all they were interested in was an accurate hard surface to take moulds from, any fancy craftsmanship under that was just a waste of our time and the customer's money. Congratulations to all responsible for a lovely piece of work.

[Mistron]

I learnt to do it making paterns for GRP work. We used to build up the shapes in either foam or styling clay as they were quickest to work with to get a decent finish, and easy to build up or remove in large areas. The 'ten line' formers were usually pretty close to what we thought we wanted.

the longest bit of the process was doing the tape line drawings. It's just thin black masking tape which you can lift off the paper and re-apply if you aren't happy with the lines. You can do several layers, but guarenteed that at some stage you will rip off one line in disgust, only to find that you had subsequently applied a line you were hapy with over the other end of it and that you have just removed both of them......

You learn quickly to check!

I have to say it's quite a satisfying and pleasant process to work through.

[Tony Matthews]

Yes kayemod, and the ceilings in my cottage are lath and plaster, the finished surface is incredibly smooth and flat, the upside is as rough as hell! It is amazing what skill and perseverence can achieve, now most of the graft is taken care of by computer-controlled milling machines and large blocks of resin. I used to love the body bucks at Penske Cars, beautifully finished lumps of wood who's only task was to enable moulds to be made.

[Tony Matthews]

Another shot of the Talbot body under construction, 2 1/2 English Wheels in the background - I would love to be able to use one.

[Mistron]

2 things in the above photo, both of real importance:

1. are the panels on the shelves as small as they look? perhaps for exclusive pedal cars? I spy E type, C type, P3/4 and DB2/4

and
2. who's admitting ownership the inflatable sheep?

I have long wanted a shot of an english wheel. It is possible to hire a smallish one for a week to try from a guy who makes a CNC machined kit which you build yourself. Can't convince my wife that it's an effective use of a weeks annual leave!

[bradbury west]

You can buy the wheels and head separately for not a lot. Get some 3x2 or 4x2 box section welded up to make the frame. That is what the lad in our local garage did when he got fed up. He builds stuff from scratch now using steel sheet. It is a matter of practice, I gather.
Roger Lund

[Paul Rochdale]

Years ago I was up in Rochdale when I had reason to visit Cedric Brierley at his Victoria Works at Littleborough. His staff were building an alloy body onto a very rare pre-war car. It was explained to me that British sports racing car bodies were traditionally built using the English Wheeling machine whereas Italian sports racing car bodies were beaten out with mallets on sand bags. He mentioned than once the paint was removed, the amount of filler the Italians used was amazing whereas amost none was use on the wheeled bodyshells.

I'm sorry if this is already common knowledge but sometime I feel I ought to contribute something.

[Tony Matthews]

Originally posted by Mistron
2 things in the above photo, both of real importance:

1. are the panels on the shelves as small as they look? perhaps for exclusive pedal cars? I spy E type, C type, P3/4 and DB2/4

and
2. who's admitting ownership the inflatable sheep?

I have long wanted a shot of an english wheel. It is possible to hire a smallish one for a week to try from a guy who makes a CNC machined kit which you build yourself. Can't convince my wife that it's an effective use of a weeks annual leave!

They were full-size, Mistron, it was a large workshop, the end wall is further away than it at first looks. As to the inflatable herbivore, I asked it if it was OK stuck up on an English Wheel, it just gave me a sheepish wink.

Convincing women that anything that interests us is worth while is an up-hill struggle, their attitude, if they would only understand it, is counter-productive, and leads to secrecy and furtivness. Ooh, sorry darling, didn't see you there....

[Tony Matthews]

Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
It was explained to me that British sports racing car bodies were traditionally built using the English Wheeling machine whereas Italian sports racing car bodies were beaten out with mallets on sand bags. He mentioned than once the paint was removed, the amount of filler the Italians used was amazing whereas amost none was use on the wheeled bodyshells.

It is occaisionaly surprising to see a stripped Italian classic, the word golf ball springs to mind, whereas a freshly wheeled body, well - you just want to polish it!

[Lotus23]

I've never used an English wheel, but spoke once with a craftsman who did.

He remarked that the first time he pinched a finger in it was a painfully enlightening experience!

[anbeck]

Thanks a lot for the info. But I'd still have to see an English Wheel in action to fully understand the process.

[Tony Matthews]

Originally posted by Lotus23
He remarked that the first time he pinched a finger in it was a painfully enlightening experience!

I actually flinched when I read that!

[Pat Clarke]

Quote Matthews
"As to the inflatable herbivore, I asked it if it was OK stuck up on an English Wheel, it just gave me a sheepish wink".

..........And you accused me of being a punster!?!

Cheers

Pat

PS, I love the pen work!

[Mistron]

as ever, youtube is your friend - there are a few demos of English wheeling work in action on there.

[bradbury west]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bradbury west
].....That is what the lad in our local garage did when he got fed up. QUOTE
Sample below, in 20g steel

Roger Lund

[Tony Matthews]

There are some very interesting shapes there, Roger, and as I would feel aprehensive making such shapes in reatively soft aluminium, mild steel...blimey! But an expert might say steel is easier, more satisfying, I don't know.

[David Birchall]

What chassis is it on Roger?

[Whitney Paine]

How you people did it the traditional way I will never know. Very talented!

Some pictures of the car as she stands tonight. Front wings coming together well.





Forgot to say. Designed buck so that it splits in half saving workshop space.

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by David Birchall
What chassis is it on Roger?

2 inch box section ladder frame with smaller section square tubes making a frame for the panels, rather like superleggera type. First effort was with a Minor 1000 cockpit area cut to open top to use as bulkheads, later scrapped. It use Rover V8 and box, Sierra diff and rear hubs, and mk Cortina front stub axles IIRC. The standard of build was of a very high quality, just for fun. This is the front end. He even taught himself trimming.

He did another one a la 1930s sports car FNash/HRG type for an octogenarian retired motor trader and specialist engineer, who used to be a pal of Maurice Charles.- Le Mans D and E types etc.
For the curent one he liked the style of the Mercedes 500/540K type of body
Roger Lund

[Mistron]

any progress on the Aston?