68 replies to this topic

[962C]

I have just found out about this video, showing J.M. Fangio driving a "Ferrari 2500" around Monaco in the mid/late 60s, judging by the surroundings.
Based on my limited knowledge of the subject, the car looks to me like a Lancia D50 (despite the Ferrari markings), complete with its side fuel tanks, separated from the rest of the body. I had alway made the (probably wrong) assumption that all D50s were modified by Ferrari after the 1955 season and received a rear mounted fuel tank and one-piece body. However, this video seems to prove otherwise.
So did any D50s survive in their Lancia shape?

[RStock]

I don't know about the origins of the one in the video , and I'm not sure you could say any survived intact .

But this link will help explain what happened to the remnants .

http://www.conceptca...Lancia_D50.aspx

[Todd]

That video is fascinating. When was it made? Near as I can tell, the VW beetle he passes at one point on the circuit has the 1967 facelifted headlights and bumpers. How did they cut it together so that it looks like the D50 carried more incar cameras than a NASCAR grid? Was there still an intact D50 in the late '60s? Is the whole thing done with trickery and one of the D50 recreations?

[SWB]

The D50 was gradually modified over the course of the '56 season, but Fangio won the Argentina GP (after taking over Musso's car) with the twin tank version.

Steve

[Red Socks]

After the Lancia's were handed over to Ferrari surely one car was kept by the Biscaretti Museum and maybe one for the Lancia collection which later became a sort of museum.

[Dutchy]

I can't download the video on this pc due to restrictions but I have seen it before and from memory I recall Fangio drove the Biscaretti Museum car in a demonstration at Monaco in the late 1960s.
Strangely two cars did survive in their original form because as far as I'm aware they were retained by Lancia who donated one to the Biscaretti Museum.

[Arjan de Roos]

Thanks for this nice video 962C. What you see is indeed not a Ferrari, but the Lancia D50. Driven by Fangio himself, quite likely on an early morning during a GP weekend. The car has the Ferrari and Scuderia markings, but lacks the steering wheel emblem. To my knowledge one original D50 remained unmodified and can be seen in the Biscaretti museum in Italy, and sometimes on international shows. Copies have been made later.
So Fangio in a demo run 60ish with a Lancia.

[Dutchy]

It was early morning

[Paul Parker]

This was shot in 1970 I think.

What really impresses is the fact that JMF could still drive like that despite being retired 12+ years. Also did anybody notice the parked cars on the left just past St. Devote!

Truly there was never anybody quite like him, especially in single seaters.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
This was shot in 1970 I think.

What really impresses is the fact that JMF could still drive like that despite being retired 12+ years. Also did anybody notice the parked cars on the left just past St. Devote!

Truly there was never anybody quite like him, especially in single seaters.

On 15 year old Engelberts too!

[Roger Clark]

Wasn't there discussion about another version of this footage a few weeks ago on the You tube thread?

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by Dutchy


On 15 year old Engelberts too!

Look at the understeer through the hairpin!

What a lovely movie

[cpbell]

I'm dubious as to this being as late as 1970, as I'm sure I could see straw bales lining the harbour after the chicane. They were, of course, removed after Bandini's fatal crash in '67 and replaced by guardrails.

Lovely film, though - the old man drifting what was apparently a tricky car out of the Gasworks hairpin and converting understeer to almost a four-wheel drift out of Station Hairpin is a joy to watch. Thanks for posting it!

[flat-16]

This clip has been discussed before - forgive me for not remembering where. I seem to recall a connection between this and the Hudson film 'Fangio' ??

http://forums.autosp...ighlight=hudson

What a class act the old boy was!


Justin

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by cpbell
Lovely film, though - the old man drifting what was apparently a tricky car out of the Gasworks hairpin and converting understeer to almost a four-wheel drift out of Station Hairpin is a joy to watch.:

Should this be cross-referenced to the 'F1 terminology' thread?
The terms 'drift' and four-wheel drift are among the most abused in modern discussion
By correct definition, drifting out of a hairpin would not be possible

[cpbell]

Originally posted by David McKinney

Should this be cross-referenced to the 'F1 terminology' thread?
The terms 'drift' and four-wheel drift are among the most abused in modern discussion
By correct definition, drifting out of a hairpin would not be possible

Begging your pardon, my terminology was somewhat loose there. I should, of course, have typed "powersliding what was...". I still say, though, that all four wheels are sliding as he applies the power down the hill to Lower Massanet. Is "four-wheel powerslide" an oxymoron in a conventional, RWD racing car? Whatever it be called, it's beautiful to watch.

[Tmeranda]

Thanks for posting the link. Great footage. The car is much smaller then I had believed.

[Doug Nye]

Tmeranda - that was precisely why the D50 is so highly regarded today. In original form it was, by the competitive GP car standards of the time, absolutely tiny!

DCN

[f1steveuk]

I have to say, I cannot agree with Doug more. Having lusted after the D50 from a small schoolboy onwards, I got a call one day at work (when I worked for Formula One Management) from my mate, who looked after BCE's car collection. An invite to go and eat lunch while looking over the "new arrival", the replica D50 the small one, had had built. Once the smoke trail I had left behind had cleared, there it was, and it was tiny! Beautifully proportioned, the only thing I was "concerned" about was the distance between the pedals (well I had to sit in it didn't I?) but the packaging and layout was/is perfection, but the shock of seeing just how small it was (it was next to VW10) still lives with me. Sadly not small enough to slip into my pocket though!

[cpbell]

Was the reputation of the original D50 as being nervous at the limit (presumably due to the short wheelbase) justified? Or was it a case of some drivers failing to adapt from the more 'lazy' handling traits of conventinal cars?

[oldtimer]

While waiting for the experts to jump in, if Ascari was having difficulties, then don't look to the driver.

My source would have been DSJ in MotorSport, but clearly, he was struggling to get first-hand information about any handling problems.

[Doug Nye]

My understanding is that the D50 handled and gripped very well as it approached its adhesion limit, but that it gave very little warning of being close to that limit before it would break away and career off course - all four wheels tending to lose adhesion at once. It was a different taste sensation in an era of basic oversteerers - 250F - or initial understeerers - W196. My limited experience of driving one of the replica cars was that it just felt tiny, friendly, rigid and precise. But how close to its limits did I venture? Maybe that could be judged in light years...

Tell you what, though, when you floor it the thing really lifts its skirts and goes like gangbusters! Yeehaa...

DCN

[cpbell]

Interesting observation there, Mr Nye. Perhaps the contrasts between W196 and 250F with the revamped (ruined?) Lancia-Ferrari and Fangio's successes in all three underline that part of his greatness was his ability to adapt to very different machinery in comparatively few races, as, even allowing for non-championship outings, the number of comptitive races for Formula 1 machinery then must have been significantly lower then compared with today.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by cpbell
Is "four-wheel powerslide" an oxymoron in a conventional, RWD racing car? Whatever it be called, it's beautiful to watch.

No, "powerslide" is fine - it's a slide (of two wheels or four) provoked by power
And yes, great to watch

[cpbell]

Originally posted by David McKinney

No, "powerslide" is fine - it's a slide (of two wheels or four) provoked by power
And yes, great to watch

Thanks!

[Dennis Hockenbury]

My thanks for sharing the video as I really enjoyed watching this. I was too young to have watched Fangio drive during his career, and I would have loved to have seen him in action at least once.

I did meet with him on several occasions in the late 1980's in Argentina however, and he was never too bothered to chat for a while. A true gentlemen in every respect.

[Der Pate]

Great video...I only saw Fangio driving cars in the 80s and 90s...but those (mostly) Mercedes-drives can´t be compared to that drive in the old Lancia/Ferrari with slides and all of that...

The architecture of Monaco was also interesting...didn´t know, that the tunnel was that short in the earlier years...should be watching the movie "Grand prix" again with the drive of "Sarti" through the streets of Monaco in the 60s...

[cpbell]

Originally posted by Der Pate


The architecture of Monaco was also interesting...didn´t know, that the tunnel was that short in the earlier years...should be watching the movie "Grand prix" again with the drive of "Sarti" through the streets of Monaco in the 60s...

There is an ongoing thread called "Monaco Architecture" which covers the changes on and around the GP circuit over the years.

[Der Pate]

Originally posted by cpbell



There is an ongoing thread called "Monaco Architecture" which covers the changes on and around the GP circuit over the years.

Thanks...!!!

[cpbell]

You're welcome!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
This was shot in 1970 I think.

What really impresses is the fact that JMF could still drive like that despite being retired 12+ years. Also did anybody notice the parked cars on the left just past St. Devote!

Truly there was never anybody quite like him, especially in single seaters.

And I saw him fully twenty years after his retirement...

I can tell you, he'd lost none of it at all. I've previously described the high level to which he was driving, much of it being so subtle it was totally lost on those looking on.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Der Pate
...should be watching the movie "Grand prix" again with the drive of "Sarti" through the streets of Monaco in the 60s...

Watch out Pate, not all Monaco in "Grand Prix" is really Monaco. Have a look at the Grand Prix film thread.

[Tony Matthews]

My phone has just reminded me I have a medical appointment VERY soon, so no time to add to this, except to say it was an original D50 - more to come...

[starlet]

Are you sure you don't mix two cars there ?
I know well this one, and it has nothing of a D50 but the gearbox.

[David McKinney]

Tony,
That number's from a Dino 246 - a real one

[zg1972]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
My understanding is that the D50 handled and gripped very well as it approached its adhesion limit, but that it gave very little warning of being close to that limit before it would break away and career off course - all four wheels tending to lose adhesion at once. It was a different taste sensation in an era of basic oversteerers - 250F - or initial understeerers - W196. My limited experience of driving one of the replica cars was that it just felt tiny, friendly, rigid and precise. But how close to its limits did I venture? Maybe that could be judged in light years...

Tell you what, though, when you floor it the thing really lifts its skirts and goes like gangbusters! Yeehaa...

DCN

Doug, I think you are absolutely right. Sudden breakaway is typical (and more-less unavoidable, at least up to certain extent) for the cars of low polar moment (majority of the mass is situated around the CoG) in comparison with cars that have heavy components widely spaced.

D50 had its fuel within the wheelbase and perhaps a tad too much bhp (at least in certain conditions) for the still-narrow tyres of the era. But such a car could be a brilliant world-beater in hands of somone skilful enough to approach its limit very close but rarely or never overstep it.

[Bauble]

I well remember the 1956 British Grand Prix, where Hawthorn and Brooks in the BRM's took the lead from the start (Brooks from row three, up to second place well before the 'Motor Bridge') and pulling out a decent lead over El Chueco in the Lancia Ferrari. 'The Old Man' was trying really hard and after a few laps passed Tony only to spin it all away at Becketts. The sight and sound as he shifted up through the gears in his recovery, lives with me even today. I am proud of the fact that I saw Fangio spin off, as it was a fairly rare occurrence, and it was while trying catch my beloved BRM's!

Many people think that Jim Clark, Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher et al number amongst the best Grand Prix drivers ever, but before you rate them you must first put Nuvolari, Fangio and Moss on the podium and then you can list your top ten.

By-the-by Kevin Wheatcroft told me that his favourite car in the Wheatcroft Museum is the Lancia. A man of impeccable taste.

[Andretti Fan]

Originally posted by zg1972
Doug, I think you are absolutely right. Sudden breakaway is typical (and more-less unavoidable, at least up to certain extent) for the cars of low polar moment (majority of the mass is situated around the CoG) in comparison with cars that have heavy components widely spaced.

D50 had its fuel within the wheelbase and perhaps a tad too much bhp (at least in certain conditions) for the still-narrow tyres of the era. But such a car could be a brilliant world-beater in hands of somone skilful enough to approach its limit very close but rarely or never overstep it.

Jimmy Clark?

[starlet]

Originally posted by Tony Matthews
... it was an original D50 - more to come...

Please, tell !!

Originally posted by Bauble
By-the-by Kevin Wheatcroft told me that his favourite car in the Wheatcroft Museum is the Lancia. A man of impeccable taste.

There was a better choice than a replica. :

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by zg1972
But such a car could be a brilliant world-beater in hands of somone skilful enough to approach its limit very close but rarely or never overstep it.

But the car was in hands of someone skillful enough, namely Alberto Ascari, 1952 and 1953 World Champion.

During the 1954 season, when the D50 made several non-appearances, DSJ talked of 'low polar moment' as being a problem, though it wasn't clear whether not he had witnessed any handling problems.

It is a little ironic that Andretti Fan named Jimmy Clark as his nominee for the skills necessary to tame the D50. I think of Clark as walking in Ascari's shoes as far as deftness at the wheel was concerned. And as unlikely to have a fatal accident.

And DSJ was not the only one who thought Ascari's 4-wheel drifting skills were superior to Fangio's...

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Tmeranda - that was precisely why the D50 is so highly regarded today. In original form it was, by the competitive GP car standards of the time, absolutely tiny!

DCN

Really?
D50: Wheelbase 7ft 6ins, track 4ft 2ins
250F: Wheelbase 7ft 6ins track 4ft 4ins front, 4ft 2ins rear
W196 in 1954: wheelbase 7ft 8.5ins, track 4ft 4.5ins front, 4ft 5.5ins rear
553: wheelbase 7ft 0ins, track 4ft 1.5ins front, 3ft 11.5ins rear

[David McKinney]

And height to scuttle?

[zg1972]

Originally posted by Andretti Fan


Jimmy Clark?

For sure. Probably any top driver: Fangio, Ascari, Moss...

[zg1972]

Originally posted by oldtimer


But the car was in hands of someone skillful enough, namely Alberto Ascari, 1952 and 1953 World Champion.

During the 1954 season, when the D50 made several non-appearances, DSJ talked of 'low polar moment' as being a problem, though it wasn't clear whether not he had witnessed any handling problems.

It is a little ironic that Andretti Fan named Jimmy Clark as his nominee for the skills necessary to tame the D50. I think of Clark as walking in Ascari's shoes as far as deftness at the wheel was concerned. And as unlikely to have a fatal accident.

And DSJ was not the only one who thought Ascari's 4-wheel drifting skills were superior to Fangio's...

Yes, absolutely, Ascari was astonishingly great driver.

I would say that Lancia was not sorted out well yet while Mercedes had a car that was already well proven in races. Mercedes also had a few bhp more (20-30 or so), probably due to the direct PI system. However, I don't think anything was basically wrong with te D50. Had Ascari lived and Lancia not folded, I think the car would be developed into a mercedes beater. It was Ferrari that really spoiled the car. They made quite a few retrograde steps: square crankcase, tail tank (a concession to lesser drivers perhaps?), Englebert tyres, abandoning of the engine as a structural member....in fact, almost every step taken by Ferrari was retrograde....but Mercedes also went backwards in comparison with the pre-war practice by employing the swing-axle rear suspension on the W196.

Mercedes had a very good car and an extremely precise and efficient Teutonic operation but they were also lucky in not a small way (I think Doug would agree with that but Karl Ludvigsen would not! Ferrari lost their way with Squalos (as they were midship-tanked, probably this bad experience was one more reason for Ferrari to modify the D50 the way they did), Vanwall and Cooper haven't emerged as serious contenders yet, Maserati was good but not as good and Lancia was badly delayed and tehn folded their operation when one of 2 top drivers of the day died.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by David McKinney
And height to scuttle?

I can't recall seeing figures for that dimension. Setright quotes frontal areas in "The Grand Prix Car" but they're difficult to believe. Looking at contemporary photographs, the D50 doesn't seem lower than its rivals and higher than the W196. The D50 was a lot smaller in front and rear overhang which has a big effect on the onlooker's perception.

[zg1972]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
I can't recall seeing figures for that dimension. Setright quotes frontal areas in "The Grand Prix Car" but they're difficult to believe. Looking at contemporary photographs, the D50 doesn't seem lower than its rivals and higher than the W196. The D50 was a lot smaller in front and rear overhang which has a big effect on the onlooker's perception.

Yes, it had short tail because the fuel tanks were between the wheels. But it was a small car.

[starlet]

Originally posted by David McKinney
And height to scuttle?

962 mm

Originally posted by zg1972
...in fact, almost every step taken by Ferrari was retrograde...

These "retrogade steps" allowed the D50 to get at last a handling...

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by zg1972
I would say that Lancia was not sorted out well yet while Mercedes had a car that was already well proven in races

And yet in the three races contested by both cars, no Mercedes was faster in practice than the best Lancia
Sounds pretty well-sorted to me

Scuttle respondents - thanks
Now all we need is the comparative heights...

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Really?
D50: Wheelbase 7ft 6ins, track 4ft 2ins
250F: Wheelbase 7ft 6ins track 4ft 4ins front, 4ft 2ins rear
W196 in 1954: wheelbase 7ft 8.5ins, track 4ft 4.5ins front, 4ft 5.5ins rear
553: wheelbase 7ft 0ins, track 4ft 1.5ins front, 3ft 11.5ins rear

Yes really. Compared to the Maserati and Merc it had hardly any overhangs... 553 was teeny too, I'll concede that., though tail treatment was not so neat, nor so bobbed. Ah, I see a later post mentions lack of overhang upon visual impression. Absolutely right. By the way, Rudi Uhlenhaut himself said to me that in 1955 "...the Lancia was the only one we feared...". In manufacturing quality it was also the only one close to Mercedes-Benz..apart from the otherwise uncompetitive Vanwall, and the late appearing BRM Type 25.


DCN

[zg1972]

Originally posted by David McKinney

And yet in the three races contested by both cars, no Mercedes was faster in practice than the best Lancia
Sounds pretty well-sorted to me

It was fast but it broke down more often than Mercedes and handling could have been fine-tuned further. Not even at Monaco 1955 was Lancia able to match Mercedes' race pace.