59 replies to this topic

[weisler]

In honor of today's race, I thought I'd start a thread to discuss this great event! Although it may be a shadow of its former self IMO, it still produces great, close action.

My favorite memory is probably the 1997 race, where "Mad" Max Pappis really lived up to his nickname. Driving a beautiful Ferrari 333SP at qualifying pace for the last hour, he just lost out to the Dyson team.

So post up your favorite memories and pictures!!!

[HistoricMustang]

Still a wonderful event and perhaps the only sprorts car race left that honors the old circuits with banking! That alone makes for a good watch.

Henry

[Lotus23]

I was glad to see David Donohue on pole.

I had a chance to speak with him a few years ago. I shared a couple of my reminiscences of his dad, and David was very courteous and polite, even though he doubtless had heard such tales many times before.

[RA Historian]

There is no comparison between the great days of the event counting as part of the World Manufacturer's Championship, and today's Grand Am race for those gosh-awful, butt ugly, Daytona prototypes. What a come down.

Of course, running on a stadium course of mostly banking with a Mickey Mouse infield is hardly the 'Ring or Spa, isn't it?

Back when I did press work as a field staffer for the defunct US Road Racing Championship in 1998-99 I worked the race. Got one hour, 45 minutes of sleep total from Saturday morning until Sunday night. I said at the time, and will readily repeat it now, that I was glad that I did it, but never want to do it again!

Tom

[T54]

Party pooper!

[weisler]

Originally posted by RA Historian
Of course, running on a stadium course of mostly banking with a Mickey Mouse infield is hardly the 'Ring or Spa, isn't it?

True, but driving a 917 on the banking could hardly be considered a tame exercise!

[fbarrett]

Friends:

Yes, those prototypes are ugly, but luckily the race still has plenty of examples of the venerable 911. It's patently amazing that a car introduced in 1963, fully 46 years ago, is still so competitive. Almost like a Ford Model A running up front in NASCAR! OK, I'm a big 911 fan, but what other car has been so competitive for so long? And despite a layout that shouldn't work well, they are still big fun to drive on the street and to watch racing. Evergreen, pure and simple.

Frank

[Todd]

Originally posted by fbarrett
Friends:

Yes, those prototypes are ugly, but luckily the race still has plenty of examples of the venerable 911. It's patently amazing that a car introduced in 1963, fully 46 years ago, is still so competitive. Almost like a Ford Model A running up front in NASCAR! OK, I'm a big 911 fan, but what other car has been so competitive for so long? And despite a layout that shouldn't work well, they are still big fun to drive on the street and to watch racing. Evergreen, pure and simple.

Frank

Symbolic had some nice early 911s in their showroom along with a 997 or 996. The cars didn't even look related, the new one being bigger and heavier than some SUVs. The current '911' has more in common with a Taurus than it does with the original 901, not the least being size and weight. They race effectively because Porsche has the best lobbyists.

[fines]

Originally posted by fbarrett
Friends:

Yes, those prototypes are ugly, but luckily the race still has plenty of examples of the venerable 911. It's patently amazing that a car introduced in 1963, fully 46 years ago, is still so competitive. Almost like a Ford Model A running up front in NASCAR! OK, I'm a big 911 fan, but what other car has been so competitive for so long? And despite a layout that shouldn't work well, they are still big fun to drive on the street and to watch racing. Evergreen, pure and simple.

Frank

Astounding! For me, the 911 Porsche has always been the yardstick for true ugliness in racing, and I recall the days of GT racing in the nineties, when I pretty much stopped watching because of all the Porsches, even though you only ever saw them when being lapped. Now, those prototypes are certainly never going to win a beauty contest, but I'd still rather watch them than a gaggle of Porsches!!! :yuk:

[David Lawson]

I've been watching this year's race live on Eurosport with some excellent commentary by Brian Redman.

David

[COUGAR508]

My favourite Daytona was the 1991 race won by the Joest Porsche entry with the formidable driver line-up of Jelinski/Pescarolo/Haywood/Wollek/Winter. And the following year we had the historic Nissan victory.

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by RA Historian
There is no comparison between the great days of the event counting as part of the World Manufacturer's Championship, and today's Grand Am race for those gosh-awful, butt ugly, Daytona prototypes. What a come down.

Of course, running on a stadium course of mostly banking with a Mickey Mouse infield is hardly the 'Ring or Spa, isn't it?

Back when I did press work as a field staffer for the defunct US Road Racing Championship in 1998-99 I worked the race. Got one hour, 45 minutes of sleep total from Saturday morning until Sunday night. I said at the time, and will readily repeat it now, that I was glad that I did it, but never want to do it again!

Tom

IMHO, any 24 HOUR event at any venue should have a great deal of recognition.

The banking of Daytona simply adds a certain amount of nostalgia that will never be coming back to sports cars or open wheel on a global scale. For that we should be thankful and we should enjoy.

Henry

[URY914]

I've been to the race 10 times over the years. First time in 1977 when I was still in high school.

Photos of the races can be found on my flickr page here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ury914/

This is 1984...

[URY914]

1980 Victory Lane

Drivers Reinhold Jost, Rolf Stommelen and Volkert Merl on the podium.

[sterling49]

The '60s and '70s were the days, Essex Wire, Shelby, Ferrari S.E.F.A.C, Porsche System Engineering, J.W. Racing, Matra Sports, Autodelta, SunOco, major manufacturers, great drivers and beautiful cars

[alfredaustria]

Hi - Is there any specialist in statistics of the 24 Hours of Daytona?
What is the distance record (how many laps) ?
Who is the record-holder? and from when?
Thanks - Regards from Vienna (Austria) - Alfred

[Hieronymus]

Beat this!!

http://vault.sportsi...21745/index.htm

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by weisler

So post up your favorite memories [/B]

Greenwood officially unofficially topping 230 on the back-straight during practice.

[Jack-the-Lad]

I never missed a race during the silouette and GTP eras. Now, I couldn't care less.

Jack.

[weisler]

Originally posted by Jack-the-Lad
I never missed a race during the silouette and GTP eras. Now, I couldn't care less.

Jack.

Well if that's the case, then lets hear about the "good old days!"

This is the nostalgia forum after all...

[Jack-the-Lad]

Well, I do have a few memories of those races....

The 935s lighting up their discs and spitting flames from their exhausts as they came off the banking and entered "infield 1"

Peter Gregg jangling the handlebar bell on his mini-bicycle as he rode it through the pits, as if to announce to the masses his approach

Mario and Michael Andretti teaming up in the brand new 956, all in white.

AJ Foyt taking over the Preston Henn 935 from Bob Wollek, much to the Frenchman's displeasure.

Chatting with Dan Gurney at 3AM on Sunday outside the fence at the horseshoe, He'd been standing there alone, just watching the cars go through.

Seeing Paul Newman race for the first time.

Watching the brave Otto Zipper crew race their Ferrari Daytona on the weekend of Otto's death.

David Hobbs taking a picture of me taking a picture of him.

Observing Judy Stropus do what she did better than anyone else.

Ronnie Petersen and Danny Ongais having a physical disagreement in the garage over what was rumored to be the attentions of a lady.

[Jack-the-Lad]

OK......the 2009 race is one to remember!! Congratulations to David Donohue and Brumos.



Jack

[fbarrett]

Originally posted by Jack-the-Lad
OK......the 2009 race is one to remember!! Congratulations to David Donohue and Brumos.

Jack:

And how! An amazingly close and emotional finish.

Frank

[JacnGille]

Originally posted by Jack-the-Lad

AJ Foyt taking over the Preston Henn 935 from Bob Wollek, much to the Frenchman's displeasure.

AJ havin words with T. Boutsen on the podium after Thierry tried to kiss AJ.

My first 24 in '77. Attendin the '88 Jag win. My last 24 in '93.

[URY914]

"Mario and Michael Andretti teaming up in the brand new 956, all in white."

That was the first 962 not a 956. I was there too

[Jack-the-Lad]

Really? I thought that was before the rules forced the change to 962 configuration.

Jack

[Phigr7]

The 956 was not allowed to race in the USA.
That's why Porsche built the 962 ;)

[Henri Greuter]

I was at Daytona in 1999. Awesome.

What struck me the most of all was the Ferrari 333SP

I had heard them at LeMans in 1997 and it was like listening to music when they accelerated away.
But on the banking at Daytona, it was as if a squadron of Stuka's came in to haunt us.
Incredible.

Fantastic experience.
I come back when they introduce race cars again instead of creating something that to some extend can profit from NASCAR but not hurt NASCAR in popularity.
AMLS etc. is too extreme i understand.
But it must be possible to create a ste of rules that make the cars look some kind of decent and attractive.

Oh, forgot,
that's impossible.

look at F1 nowadays....


henri

[fbarrett]

Friends:

Did anyone else notice a small article buried in the news the other day that post-race weighing found the Brumos car to be 12 lb under minimum weight? Under SCCA and most other sanctioning bodies this would have disqualified them, but this race was sanctioned by NASCAR, which never disqualifies winners (bad publicity, I guess), so they were docked a few points and fined $5,000. Good.

Twelve pounds is quite a bit. I suppose tire wear, coolant and lubricant consumption, even brake pad and rotor wear, would have an effect. (We've all seen F1 drivers weaving around on the cool-down lap to pick up "clag" on the tires.) Ironically, during the tv broadcast one of the commentators remarked that Brumos had asked all of its drivers to make a special effort to lose weight during the preceding months!

Frank

[red stick]

It's been duly noted.

http://forums.autosp...347#post3464347

[Roger39]

Originally posted by Hieronymus
Beat this!!

http://vault.sportsi...21745/index.htm

"the Kreepy had Krauled" ! That race made a lot of people sit up and take notice, I remember the American commentator trying to say "Van der Merwe" it sounded like "van der merr wee"! I was lucky to see Supervan at Zwartkops this weekend racing the big Ford Galaxie..brilliant stuff!

[HistoricMustang]

Twelve pounds a lap times hundreds of laps really adds up.

That is why dirt track racers simply run through the mud after race is over to get the car legal before "weigh in."

Henry

[ensign14]

Originally posted by fbarrett
Did anyone else notice a small article buried in the news the other day that post-race weighing found the Brumos car to be 12 lb under minimum weight? Under SCCA and most other sanctioning bodies this would have disqualified them, but this race was sanctioned by NASCAR, which never disqualifies winners (bad publicity, I guess), so they were docked a few points and fined $5,000. Good.

Good? I think it's an absolute joke. You can break the rules by a few per cent and get a win in the most prestigious race on the calendar? In 24 hours that missing weight is worth at least a dozen seconds. How much did they "win" by again?

Whatever one thinks about the rules they are there for everyone to comply with. Everyone else managed to make the weight limit. For the sake of a few grand you can buy a win with an illegal car.

And it's scandalous how buried this has been. Either that shows no-one gives a flying toss about the Daytona 24 or the ICC has the media by the balls, so everyone's scared to criticize.

The whole thing stinks of a fix.

[RA Historian]

With nascar ownership and sanction comes the nascar way of doing things. I would venture a guess that almost all other major sanctioning bodies would have disqualified the car for being underweight. But with nascar, the racing itself is unimportant; it is all about 'the show', licensing, sponsorships, and MONEY!!

I am sure that we could take some time here and list a fairly large number of occasions when the winner of a race has been put down for a similar offense, even with less of a weight discrepancy. No need to do that, but we all know it is true.

Just one more reason why I do not pay much attention at all to the Grand Am and its slow, butt ugly race cars.

Tom

[fbarrett]

Originally posted by ensign14

Good? I think it's an absolute joke.

Ensign:

You're right, but I'm still a Donohue fan, which was why I wrote, "Good!"

Frank

[Disco Stu]

The last hour and a half of that race was as gripping and intense as I've seen in quite a while. And then reading about the weight issue ripped the heart and soul out of that race. Makes me wonder why I wasted 8 hours on a Sunday watching it.

[brickyard]

What I'd love to see is the LMP's racing there some day ...

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by ensign14

Good? I think it's an absolute joke. You can break the rules by a few per cent and get a win in the most prestigious race on the calendar? In 24 hours that missing weight is worth at least a dozen seconds. How much did they "win" by again?

Whatever one thinks about the rules they are there for everyone to comply with. Everyone else managed to make the weight limit. For the sake of a few grand you can buy a win with an illegal car.

And it's scandalous how buried this has been. Either that shows no-one gives a flying toss about the Daytona 24 or the ICC has the media by the balls, so everyone's scared to criticize.

The whole thing stinks of a fix.

Who is to say that other's in the field were not doing the same thing?

Henry

[Obster]

Great race this year-I recorded the final seven hours from TV and watched it while working this past weekend.
Yes, remembering the 935's not only spitting flames on the over-run to turn one, but watching the turbo exhaust headers glowing at nite as the cars flew past on the banking. You could tell who had the boost turned up...
A really great circut for this sort of event as it is right in the middle of town, so to speak. We could go and entertain ourselves at several of the beachfront bars till all hours, then come back to the track, park outside, climb the grandstands and watch a midnight pitstop for the Holbert 962 or Group 44 Jag before turning in for the night!
History-wise, to me this was an important victory for Penske Racing in 1969. It was an international win-they were now beating the Ford GT/Chaparral/ Ferrari class of cars-all the cars I knew from LeMans(and slot car racing). The big time!
PS-I think the Daytona prototypes do not look as bad in person as they do on TV or in print.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Obster
PS-I think the Daytona prototypes do not look as bad in person as they do on TV or in print.

Is that possible? Right now they look worse than a spec car race of Pontiac Aztecs. I would not want to see one in person; I have an aversion to ugliness! What nascar should do is have those hideous upright box closed cockpit tops chopped off; as open roadsters they would look much, much better.
Tom

[McGuire]

Originally posted by ensign14

Good? I think it's an absolute joke. You can break the rules by a few per cent and get a win in the most prestigious race on the calendar? In 24 hours that missing weight is worth at least a dozen seconds. How much did they "win" by again?

Whatever one thinks about the rules they are there for everyone to comply with. Everyone else managed to make the weight limit. For the sake of a few grand you can buy a win with an illegal car.

And it's scandalous how buried this has been. Either that shows no-one gives a flying toss about the Daytona 24 or the ICC has the media by the balls, so everyone's scared to criticize.

The whole thing stinks of a fix.

Not to me. The Grand Am rules have always been the same and the series stuck to its rulebook and its own precedents regarding the underweight, so the ruling was correct as well as consistent. Since the underweight was not intentional and did not affect the outcome of the race, the officials wisely decided not to let it affect the adjudication of the race either.

How was the underweight unintentional? It was the result of a leaking dry sump system. The officials were already aware of the oil leak and were watching the car for the possibility of flagging it, so they were not surprised to find the oil tank nearly empty. The officials had no doubt that the leak was real and inadvertent. Thus there was no intent to circumvent the weight rules, or any rules for that matter.

Why did the underweight not influence the race outcome? The car must weigh 2275 lbs without driver or fuel. The underage post-race was 12 lbs, or about one-half of one percent. Six quarts of oil -- less than a variance in fuel load or a difference in weight between team drivers, and thus not a tangible factor in the car's performance, especially over a 24-hour race.

Personally, I'm glad that in this instance the GARRA officials were able to employ judicial judgement and simple common sense, rather than cutting the baby in half and taking a victory away from a team that truly earned it. If one appreciates that sort of pencil-sharpening there is plenty enough of it to see in F1.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by McGuire
Why did the underweight not influence the race outcome? The car must weigh 2275 lbs without driver or fuel. The underage post-race was 12 lbs, or about one-half of one percent. Six quarts of oil -- less than a variance in fuel load or a difference in weight between team drivers, and thus not a tangible factor in the car's performance, especially over a 24-hour race.

How can you say it was not a tangible factor? It won by two-tenths of a second. After 24 hours. The whole purpose of having rules is so that there's a level playing-field. This, tangibly and admittedly, was not.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by ensign14

How can you say it was not a tangible factor? It won by two-tenths of a second. After 24 hours. The whole purpose of having rules is so that there's a level playing-field. This, tangibly and admittedly, was not.

I can say it because I am technically astute enough about race cars to know it as a fact. Can we A/B test a Daytona Prototype with 12 lbs of ballast and find a measurable difference in lap times? If Montoya backed off on the burgers and lost 13 lbs for the Rolex, would that produce a competitive advantage sufficient to pass Donohue? I think not.

In F1 they need absolute weight rules without exception because the nature of the competition and the culture of the paddock is such that teams will push the envelope otherwise. They will find a way to cheat and exploit their literal interpretation of the rulebook and the testing protocol to do it. And then look you straight in the eye and say they are not cheating. Witness BAR's trick fuel cell compartment.

But in sports cars the officials have the freedom to exercise judgement when they find variances. The teams know the rules and there has been no intent to subvert them because they know that a significant variance will indeed be prosecuted. But if there is no intent to circumvent rules or resultant competitive advantage, why impose a penalty that alters the outcome of the race? Where is the wisdom in that?

You know, it wasn't that long ago that in many series, cars were not weighed post-race at all, only pre-race. If the car made weight when it went over the scales before the flag, good enough. There was a lot of sense in that approach as long as people weren't deliberately cheating. The team does not have total control over what happens to the car once it is on the track. Parts are knocked off, fluids leak out.

[ensign14]

So how much underweight should cars run at Daytona? 12 lbs? 15 lbs? 500 lbs? Where is there a "measurable" difference? What is the point in having rules if they can be ignored if there is no "measurable" difference - even one that amounts to a five-thousandth of a second per lap?

There was certainly one major advantage - by not pitting to ensure there was enough oil to make the weight limit the winning car gained 20 seconds minimum.

[drivers71]

Surprised no-one has mentioned the 1967 event, so far.
A seminal day in the mighty Ford vs Ferrari battle for supremency on the race tracks of the world.
The corporate Ford effort, now at full power, entered a total of six MkII GTs to consolidate the previous years Le Mans victory (not to say, "kick more Ferrari asses"). Sadly for Ford, on their home turf, they failed spectacularly to last the pace, and five of the six retired. The works Ferraris finished first and second, with the staged photo-finish supplemented by the NART Ferrari coming home in third place. The only slight consolation for Ford being the privately entered GT40s trailing home in sixth and eighth places, with the sole remaining MkII between them.
The steamroller would need more $$$$s and more reliability than shown at Daytona.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by ensign14
So how much underweight should cars run at Daytona? 12 lbs? 15 lbs? 500 lbs? Where is there a "measurable" difference? What is the point in having rules if they can be ignored if there is no "measurable" difference - even one that amounts to a five-thousandth of a second per lap?

There was certainly one major advantage - by not pitting to ensure there was enough oil to make the weight limit the winning car gained 20 seconds minimum.

There is no such thing as .005 per lap in the setup or performance envelope of a Daytona Prototype. Also, the rules were not ignored. The rulebook and precedent were followed. The team recieved a monetary fine and a points penalty. I have no reason to believe we are going to see Grand Am DP teams pushing the weight rule as a result of this incident.

Beyond that you have the last word. I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by McGuire
Beyond that you have the last word. I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you fellows were having a disagreement.......;)
Tom

[fbarrett]

Friends:

Years ago, curious about the effect of weight on lap times, some friends and I ran an informal test of a 2,000-lb Porsche 911 on a road course (much tighter/slower than Daytona) with a lap time of about 1:20. We concluded that an extra 10 lb added 0.1 sec to lap times. Gave me a good reason to diet!

And, as I said earlier, Brumos evidently asked their drivers to lose weight before the race.

Frank

[Chocmonster]

Originally posted by McGuire
You know, it wasn't that long ago that in many series, cars were not weighed post-race at all, only pre-race. If the car made weight when it went over the scales before the flag, good enough.

From what I heard a large amount of the leaking fluid came out while the car was sat in victory lane and as you've mentioned the officials knew all about it.

I for one enjoyed my Daytona experience, watching the cars on the banking is amazing and the place certainly has an air of history to it. I was lucky enough to be able to attend the Drivers Briefing on Saturday morning and hear Brian Redman address the audience. I also witnessed a couple of the current day drivers taking a very keen interest in the older cars which were on display.

[retriever]

Having watched transmissions of this year's race on Eurosport UK I must say I get much more satisfaction from endurance racing than what passes for Formula One these days - even if it includes those ugly Grand American prototypes.

However, I really could do without Martin Haven trying to fill every second of transmission time with strident commentary, so much so that it detracts and distracts from what is being transmitted. Mark Cole - when he can get a word in - provides a much more measured approach and is a welcome relief. The same situation arises with the broadcasting of the Le Mans 24 hours when he is in the commentary box. He rambles on and on often completely missing what is actually happening at the time.

My congratulations to the Riley-Ford of Brundle/Blundell/Brown/Patterson for taking fourth (and nearly third) - marvellous effort.

Edited by retriever, 31 January 2011 - 20:32.