70 replies to this topic

[Mohican]

Dutch bank ING today announced job cuts of 7,000 employees as well as the departure of the CEO. In addition, the Financial Times reports its intention to "cut back its Formula 1 sponsorship".

Interesting times; given Renault's concern over Formula 1 costs in the past, the implications do not look good.
Honda was the first manufacturer to throw in the towel, Williams are obviously in trouble - and now Renault MAY have a problem.

[Buttoneer]

I bet race sponsorship will go long before the team sponsorship does.

[Mohican]

http://blogs.iht.com...ports/f1/?p=549

[GerardF1]

Can't have cigarettes (except Ferrari and their Marlboro connection)

The banks are running out of $$ for advertising

IT companies have gone the way of the Dodo.

Whats left?

[Racing Dutchman]

Originally posted by GerardF1
Can't have cigarettes (except Ferrari and their Marlboro connection)

The banks are running out of $$ for advertising

IT companies have gone the way of the Dodo.

Whats left?

Beverage (Red Bull)
Electronics (Philips, altough they are also cutting 6000 jobs as announced today)

I hope they pass legaslation in The Netherlands denying the executives of any salary above €80.000 and a ban on forced job cuts if a bank still makes profit and or sponsors for high amounts of money.

People first, advertising second

PS: The ING has a nasty reputation of being a very bad bank when it comes to customer services and therefore alot of Dutch people are now sticking their middle finger to them when they want to merge the sucessfull and very customer friendly bank "Postbank" under the ING name. That is one of the reasons ING got into more problems since their first cry for help

As far as i have read, ING doesn't cut back on executive salaries and doens't cut back on sponsorship, and this will create their downfall (and believe me, you have made a big mess if u actually get us Dutch people so far to do this, unlike people in say Italy, South-America, USA etc.)

[stormshadow]

RBS in difficulties, whats new?

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by stormshadow
RBS in difficulties, whats new?

This is ING, not RBS.

[Lewis Hamilton F1]

Originally posted by Buttoneer
I bet race sponsorship will go long before the team sponsorship does.

totally agree! but that can all happen possibly sooner rather than later...

[Timstr11]

Given the trouble ING is in, there is no way they will renew after the end of this year.
Same for RBS.

Coupled with the forecast of a further downturn in auto sales this year, the worst is yet to come for F1 as a whole.

2010 will be a very difficult year for F1.

[Gilles4Ever]

Originally posted by Timstr11
Given the trouble ING is in, there is no way they will renew after the end of this year.
Same for RBS.

Coupled with the forecast of a further downturn in auto sales this year, the worst is yet to come for F1 as a whole.

2010 will be a very difficult year for F1.

except that ING have stated on numerous occasions being in F1 is making them money.

[equality]

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


except that ING have stated on numerous occasions being in F1 is making them money.

This is very true. I have a few ING executives as customer and they all claim the F1 program has boosted their name around the globe in a big way.

Another financial market specialist figured before F1 their name a sa global investment bank wasnt even in the top 200 and now within the top 20.

However the cut on F1 isnt a stand alone decision. Its likely to be part of a big cut in spending package. Aside of that they are gonna receive billions of government money to survive. I dont think they can explain to the Dutch taxpayers why they are spending their money on what remains a very elitist sport. Or more to teh point: why we should contribute to Alonso 20 million dollar a year salary when 6000 people lose their job.

Me, im convinced its all Ron Dennis fault.;)

[Timstr11]

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


except that ING have stated on numerous occasions being in F1 is making them money.

I'm sure it has given their brand more exposure; they have achieved their objective. But more important is that they are in crisis now.

It will be hard to defend tens of millions in sponsoring an F1 team while the Dutch government is pouring in billions of taxpayers money into the bank.

It will also be hard to defend laying of 7000 FTE while sponsoring F1 with tens of millions.

[Gilles4Ever]

Originally posted by equality


Me, im convinced its all Ron Dennis fault.;)

As much as I want to agree with you I have to lay the blame squarely at the door of the tree hugging, commie, anti tobacco loons. If Renault still had Mild Seven sponsorship there would be no problem!

AND THEIR CAR WOULD BE PRETTY!

[carbonfibre]

Time to bring back tobacco on the cars?;) Just as bad for your health as banks are....

[Gemini]

Is RedBull making people redundant?

At the end they could buy all the teams and turn it into World RedBull F1 Championship.

Now seriously...

As I am concerned I cry that F1 is no longer a technical race, but I accept the world i changing as we type our messages. For the actual show run in every second weekend, I accept it can all be done at 10% total price it costs now.

If we will have 10 teams with Torro Rosso budget and pretty much spec cars, the F1 brand and image values would still make it the most prestige single seater series in the world. Just make the engines a bit stronger, keep slicks and those cars will beat anything that runs on 10+ corner tracks.

Do you think Raikkonen will have less racing ambition if he is made to live on Kubica's salary. I don't think so...

I loved the technical circus of F1 of last 20 years, but if world economy make us go back to basics in next 20 years, so be it.

I bet it would make cars no more 3 secs per lap slower if whole business is to be made run on 80% less money. So what? Those cars would still rock in comparison to anything else.

My former boss used to tell: "every business model is like a box of milk... it has it's expiry date"

F1 is no different.

I for myself would rather have slower cars, drivers on Kubica (racing is all that matters) attitude and salaries, television paying less for broadcast, GP promoters paying 10 times less for F1 race weekend, race tickets price in result being dropped 5 times...

Yes, it would cost couple of thousands of redundancies in F1 industry... I am sorry for them

and some yachts, jets and viillas not available for big guys - here I don't give a ****...

[MS7XWDC]

and Bernie says "there's no money problems"

[Racing Dutchman]

As i said, we (dutch taypayers) don't give a **** wheter it is good for the ING executives and their villa's, wheter it is good for the ING brand, we only give about the fact that a bank at fault gets so much help, withtout financially punishing the executives (in fact, reward them). In the mean time everyone in The Netherlands earning less than 1.5 average (we call it ""modaal") is in financial need. Not because we were spending like crazies (like alot of Americans) but because we have huge taxes and prices for houses and so on.

While a student and a 30 year old doctor can't come around every month without debt, whitout financial support and in the mean time having to pay taxes for ING help, the ING executives are getting €1 million euro's just for leaving.

But as usual, the political elite will just carry on and do nothing, because they get jobs at those companies in the future (Prime Minister Kok --> Shell, Tresuary Minister ---> DSB Bank and so on)

I think I have made my point that there is about to explode a political bombshell in the Dutch people's minds, and we frankly don't give a **** about ING brand name, about ING and certainly not about the salary of Alonso while we are the ones paying double for this misere (losing job AND having to pay taxes for the banksaves and "let go bonus" of millions of euro's of people who caused it, are already filthy rich and already screwed us and took our money in the first place).

Forget that I am a Ferrari fan, because I would have said the same if it was Philips (Williams) or Shell (Ferrari).

Dutch Citizen having to survive first, Ferrari fan second.

[stevewf1]

Originally posted by se7en_24
This is ING, not RBS.

According to this article (Dec 15, 2008), RBS, among others, may have been um, affected by another Bernie - Madoff...

http://www.telegraph...eged-fraud.html

[Frans]

Dutch Citizen having to survive first, Ferrari fan second.

OMFG Whahahahaaaaaa, .......this made my day.....

[Racing Dutchman]

Originally posted by Frans


OMFG Whahahahaaaaaa, .......this made my day.....

What is so funny about it?

[Frans]

Well, gewoon man... Just because it say's something like this;

1st the Dutch have to survive, after that it's the Ferrari fan what has to survive....... Well, I can see where you come from and I agree on the 1st part of your quote there, but the 2nd part........ Pffffffffft, don't make me laugh./.

I just have this feeling you do not own an ING account (anymore) ...... and your frustrated somehow..... But, if that's what it takes for you to make those funny quotes, be my guest. I can handle a laugh or 2 extra.....

[MikeTekRacing]

"Racing Dutchman", considering how much we can laugh with Frans's posts, let him have his share of fun

[4MEN]

Originally posted by MS7XWDC
and Bernie says "there's no money problems"

...until you get divorced.

[snipes]

As i said, we (dutch taypayers) don't give a **** wheter it is good for the ING executives and their villa's, wheter it is good for the ING brand, we only give about the fact that a bank at fault gets so much help, withtout financially punishing the executives (in fact, reward them). In the mean time everyone in The Netherlands earning less than 1.5 average (we call it ""modaal") is in financial need. Not because we were spending like crazies (like alot of Americans) but because we have huge taxes and prices for houses and so on.

While a student and a 30 year old doctor can't come around every month without debt, whitout financial support and in the mean time having to pay taxes for ING help, the ING executives are getting €1 million euro's just for leaving.

But as usual, the political elite will just carry on and do nothing, because they get jobs at those companies in the future (Prime Minister Kok --> Shell, Tresuary Minister ---> DSB Bank and so on)

I think I have made my point that there is about to explode a political bombshell in the Dutch people's minds, and we frankly don't give a **** about ING brand name, about ING and certainly not about the salary of Alonso while we are the ones paying double for this misere (losing job AND having to pay taxes for the banksaves and "let go bonus" of millions of euro's of people who caused it, are already filthy rich and already screwed us and took our money in the first place).

Forget that I am a Ferrari fan, because I would have said the same if it was Philips (Williams) or Shell (Ferrari).

Dutch Citizen having to survive first, Ferrari fan second.

Off topic:
Please, speak for yourself. ING is in trouble because they have taken up some bad loans, not because they give out huge salaries for managers or because of customers leaving. And surely not everybody earning less than 1,5 average is in financial need, that's pure nonsense. Of course, the financial crisis affects everybody, but there's no need to exaggerate. And jee, the Postbank customer friendly? Define your definition of customer friendly then.

On topic:

As far as i have read, ING doesn't cut back on executive salaries and doens't cut back on sponsorship

They will cut back on F1 sponsorship:
ING to cut back on F1 sponsorship

[Lazarus II]

They cut 7,000 jobs and yet maintain their F1 sponsorship.....ING

7,000 families now without income so ING can continue their F1 involvement. This is the same company that tricked us into participating in their survey and are now charging for the results.

ING loaned money hedging against other loans just like all the rest of them. They are not innocent in all of this. The innocents are having to bail them out!

[AFCA]

An ING spokespersonon on the many F1 demonstrations all over the world the team is known for doing: ''We will become a bit more selective as far as that is concerned.''

The three year contract between Renault and ING expires at the end of this year and it's yet unknown whether ING will remain a sponsor after 2009. ''It's too early to tell whether we stay in Formula 1 after 2009. Halfway through this season we will probably know more.''

[equality]

Tomorrow (thursday) the dutch secretary of finance Bos could be whistled back by the member of parlement in a emergency procedure. His proposed plan to help ING with 22 billion euros is under extreme criticism from all sorts of camps and it is by no means a done deal that ING is saved.

To be continued.

[Racing Dutchman]

Originally posted by equality
Tomorrow (thursday) the dutch secretary of finance Bos could be whistled back by the member of parlement in a emergency procedure. His proposed plan to help ING with 22 billion euros is under extreme criticism from all sorts of camps and it is by no means a done deal that ING is saved.

To be continued.

Did i already mention the so called CEO has gotten a €1 million paycheck just to leave after he screwed it?
Wonder what those 7000 people and taxpayers get for being honest.

Dutch parlement says they can do anything, but they seem to forget THEY make the laws (seems like they haven't been paying attention in political school). They also know the normal Dutch people will suppor such laws

Don't bet on that ING sponsorship this year

[BullHead]

Originally posted by Lazarus II
They cut 7,000 jobs and yet maintain their F1 sponsorship.....ING

7,000 families now without income so ING can continue their F1 involvement. This is the same company that tricked us into participating in their survey and are now charging for the results.

ING loaned money hedging against other loans just like all the rest of them. They are not innocent in all of this. The innocents are having to bail them out!

OOeer - we're getting political now.

Best thing - don't mix politics (or morals) with sport and entertainment. It doesn't work

[MikeTekRacing]

Originally posted by Lazarus II
They cut 7,000 jobs and yet maintain their F1 sponsorship.....ING

maybe because..errr...they consider F1 sponsorship as an investment to save their a$$es and get them new customers?
try to think it as a whole. nobody is maintaining sponsorship for the love of it. if they spend $50mil, than they consider it as being useful to generate income in the future.
as simple as that, nothing to do with morale.
sponsorship is just business, if they keep it they consider it to still be good business

[SeanValen]

A sign of times.

Just get Gordan Brown to borrow more tax payers money here in the UK, he'll sort it out.

[babbel]

Completely offtopic but if someone is spouting nonsense I will have to respond

Originally posted by Racing Dutchman

In the mean time everyone in The Netherlands earning less than 1.5 average (we call it ""modaal") is in financial need. Not because we were spending like crazies (like alot of Americans) but because we have huge taxes and prices for houses and so on.

While a student and a 30 year old doctor can't come around every month without debt, whitout financial support and in the mean time having to pay taxes for ING help, the ING executives are getting €1 million euro's just for leaving.

I think you have some terms mixed up. 1500 a month is not the modal in NL. The minimumwage for anyone older than 23 years old is 1.381,20. The modal that the CPB uses is 31930 per year (source), so that's quite abit more per month.

I seriously doubt a doctor can't pay his bills at the moment as well... Well maybe if he has a 3 million euro house, 5 vacations a year and 3 cars.

Originally posted by Racing Dutchman

PS: The ING has a nasty reputation of being a very bad bank when it comes to customer services and therefore alot of Dutch people are now sticking their middle finger to them when they want to merge the sucessfull and very customer friendly bank "Postbank" under the ING name. That is one of the reasons ING got into more problems since their first cry for help

I would like a source for that, while this was true for Fortis I've not heard anything about people pulling their money away from ING/Postbank.

[Modern Lover]

Originally posted by GerardF1
Can't have cigarettes (except Ferrari and their Marlboro connection)

The banks are running out of $$ for advertising

IT companies have gone the way of the Dodo.

Whats left?

New money:
Arabs, Indians, and to a certain extent Russians (although they are going broke in a hurry).

[Owen]

Originally posted by Modern Lover

New money:
Arabs, Indians, and to a certain extent Russians (although they are going broke in a hurry).

I know this sounds silly but; Food and drink companies. Making more money than ever before and yet absent from f1.

[Frans]

There's nothing wrong with ING, there are WAY worse banks here in the NL.

ING still sponsors an F1 team and several races around the world. Can't be all to wrong then?


Maybe you should switch to another bank Mr. Racing_Dutchman, ... like an Icelandic bank? .....

[Racing Dutchman]

Originally posted by Frans
There's nothing wrong with ING, there are WAY worse banks here in the NL.

ING still sponsors an F1 team and several races around the world. Can't be all to wrong then?


Maybe you should switch to another bank Mr. Racing_Dutchman, ... like an Icelandic bank? .....

I am talking about their customer service, smartass

I am with the Postbank

[Frans]

Oh yeah, Postbank ....... very reliable. Very F1-ish as well.....
and complaining about customer service, ... what bank nowadays DO have that kind of service left?

btw, Postbank made it possible to let my pin to be skimmed, ...

so there we have it. Your not with the Orange-Lion, your with the Bleu-Lion.

so your a kind of Mr. Bleu. ok, got it! Over and out.

[Racing Dutchman]

Originally posted by Frans
Oh yeah, Postbank ....... very reliable. Very F1-ish as well.....
and complaining about customer service, ... what bank nowadays DO have that kind of service left?

btw, Postbank made it possible to let my pin to be skimmed, ...

so there we have it. Your not with the Orange-Lion, your with the Bleu-Lion.

so your a kind of Mr. Bleu. ok, got it! Over and out.

You are clearly making use of the legalised drugs policy of our government.

[Lazarus II]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

maybe because..errr...they consider F1 sponsorship as an investment to save their a$$es and get them new customers?
try to think it as a whole. nobody is maintaining sponsorship for the love of it. if they spend $50mil, than they consider it as being useful to generate income in the future.
as simple as that, nothing to do with morale.
sponsorship is just business, if they keep it they consider it to still be good business

Try to think of it as an investor - like me....JUST like me. I look into the companies that I invest in. If they have a positive employee philosophy I continue looking. IMO an company that has employees that are happy, are productive. That's just the way I look at it, you can agree or you can look at things otherwise, but it has worked for me. It sure worked for my wife and her choice of employment too (her company has not laid off 1 person through these tough economic times all caused by the investment bankers).

So, you can try and take their moral obligation out of the equation if you wish, but I see it otherwise. There is always morality in every equation IMO - that's just how I look at things. ING offers offers banking, insurance and asset management services - those will be services that this investor is NOT interested in. I'm not a huge fish (I'm not portraying myself as one either), but I am an avid investor.

BTW - the 6th best company to work for by Fortune. Their CEO believes very similarly to myself. He is a very honest and morally correct person that, from my dealings with him, would choose to keep his 7,000 employees rather than sponsor an F1 team and a few F1 races.

And lastly (finally) the last thing a company that is going to recieve a helping had from their tax paying public needs is to be seen doing is 'wasting' funds (the majority of the public will see it that way - their bailout money going toward sponsoring racing!). It will have reprocussions.

[Racing Dutchman]

Originally posted by Lazarus II

Try to think of it as an investor - like me....JUST like me. I look into the companies that I invest in. If they have a positive employee philosophy I continue looking. IMO an company that has employees that are happy, are productive. That's just the way I look at it, you can agree or you can look at things otherwise, but it has worked for me. It sure worked for my wife and her choice of employment too (her company has not laid off 1 person through these tough economic times all caused by the investment bankers).

So, you can try and take their moral obligation out of the equation if you wish, but I see it otherwise. There is always morality in every equation IMO - that's just how I look at things. ING offers offers banking, insurance and asset management services - those will be services that this investor is NOT interested in. I'm not a huge fish (I'm not portraying myself as one either), but I am an avid investor.

BTW - the 6th best company to work for by Fortune. Their CEO believes very similarly to myself. He is a very honest and morally correct person that, from my dealings with him, would choose to keep his 7,000 employees rather than sponsor an F1 team and a few F1 races.

And lastly (finally) the last thing a company that is going to recieve a helping had from their tax paying public needs is to be seen doing is 'wasting' funds (the majority of the public will see it that way - their bailout money going toward sponsoring racing!). It will have reprocussions.

You can attract as much customers as you like, but if the personnel is upset like now, they won't care wether the customer is happy or not, they have their own worries (management rule = if you got personal problems, you can't focus on your job). Let's see how quick those customers leave and NEVER come back again.

As said I am a customer with the Postbank, which is now taken over by ING. The Postbank have a greet customer service (like last saturday my creditcard got blocked, and they immidiately called me, instead of waiting around before I called). Alot of people are now upset because ING (which as i said is taking over Postbank) does things as customer unfriendely as they can (like promising 5x to refund the money they took of my account by mistake, and i still haven't gotten it AFTER 5 months)

Last point: as said by the person I quote, you cannot sponsor a F1 team when you get tax payer support. If they didn't calculate the risk before going into an agreement, it is their problem, and I don't give a **** what they do first, as long as it ain't cutting jobs or sponsoring F1.
If they really are so honest all of the management would work for no more than €80,000 (which is still alot!). But offcourse those already filthy rich pigs won't do that. They are gonna beg of hard working tax payers (who do not earn anywhere near €80,000 to start with) and fire people who can't afford losing their job.

PS: the reason I talk about €80,000 is because the new CEO of Fortis, which is in kind of the same troubles, did accept an salary of €80,000

Who needs to solve this? All of the governments together!

Capitalism is fine, but when it starts ruining people's life on massive base while rewarding the guilty and already rich people, I find it disgusting and an outright crime

[BullHead]

Is this still a motorsports forum?

[Lazarus II]

Originally posted by BullHead
Is this still a motorsports forum?

Yes. It's very unfortunate that we are discussing this here, but then the world's economies are involved :

[BullHead]

Yeah, getting a bit heavy though when we start questioning financial / social philosphies. I mean to question "capitalism" We might as well question the point or morality of F1 itself. : Too much mannn...

[Frans]

yeah ... *** ***** ** *** ** ***** **....

Racing Dutchman your a crybaby

blame it all on F1, AND the Dutch.... you forgot WE RULE THE WORLD IN SECRET?

[Racing Dutchman]

Originally posted by Frans


The Dutch.... you forgot WE RULE THE WORLD IN SECRET?

Didn't your mummy tell you not to tell this to non-Dutch people

Originally posted by BullHead
Yeah, getting a bit heavy though when we start questioning financial / social philosphies. I mean to question "capitalism" We might as well question the point or morality of F1 itself. : Too much mannn...

Maybe a little bit heavy, but point is that people around the world are starting to realise it, and that could mean the end of F1 in it's current form.

Alot of companies are starting to realise they can't justify to keep backing a F1 team when they need to lay off people, even if their reserves are enough to keep backing a F1 team for some years.

Hence the motorsport link.

[BullHead]

Yeah, maybe. But I guess businesses will still function as best as they can even if they do have to lay people off. Part of that functioning will remain to be advertising and marketing, which is what sport, F1 or otherwise is to these businesses.

What you're saying is right - the economic climate is making lavish marketing strategies difficult. But it is not a moral issue, just a budgeting one. F1, like other global sports will be hit by smaller advertising budgets to hand, just as TV and paper ad environments will be (are).

A business will struggle. It may lay off staff. But if it is still in business and wants to remain so for it's existing staff, it will still advertise. F1 and motorsport sponsorship may well be bottom of the marketing spend list, but hopefully it will be realised that it is a good spend if done wisely. This is where the teams and the Bernie / Max regime need to work hard - to make sure that investors still get their return, and persuade them that sport, motorsport and F1 is still good for a marketing tool.

What will be will be.

Hopefully businesses will still survive, still advertise, and still use F1 - which for us keeps the fun going. Let's face it 2hrs of racing every other Sunday is more fun than 2hrs a week of crappy TV ads.

It will be OK IMO.

[Mastah]

ING to end F1 sponsoring programme after 2009 season:

http://www.ing.com/g...docid=365919_EN

[lukywill]

renault to switch to mcdonald's.

[airwise]

Originally posted by lukywill
renault to switch to mcdonald's.

Renault to switch to keeping factories in France open.

[taran]

I think this is a period in which F1's image of a luxurious, high-tech, over the top, glamourous, spend ridiculous amounts, sports will work against it. Companies need to advertise, perhaps more so in economically trying times, but the perception of their advertising is equally important.

When laying off thousands of people, you simply cannot be seen to sponsor something which is known for profligate spending and an excessive life style. At that point, sponsoring will just start to work against you.

When it comes to companies saved by government bailouts (which is another word for taxpayer's money), then it becomes even more so.

F1 budgets may be secure for 2009 due to current contracts (although i am sure every contract has get out clauses) but there will be no new contracts in the current economic climate.

ING has now announced it is withdrawing from F1 at the end of 2009. I am sure they are just the first of many sponsors.