55 replies to this topic

[Roger39]

Looking at old footage of the GP's it seems almost barbaric now that catch fencing was used to slow cars down and the thought of a bike rider sliding into it is unbeliavable. I know the fencing was done away with in the '80's but what year exactly? Was there a single event that sparked this or who made the descision?

[B Squared]

This is only a guess, with zero research time involved. Could it possibly be the common sense practicality and the results of the numerous tires banded & stacked together for the races in Long Beach? I seem to first remember this system in Long Beach.

Brian

[Tony Matthews]

Originally posted by Roger39
Was there a single event that sparked this or who made the descision?

I thought it was the tragic death of Mark Donohue at the Osterreichring.

[picblanc]

French GP motorcyclist Olivier Chevallier was one of many killed/injured hitting catch fence posts in the late 1970's, also if I recall,? the fencing used to ride up and lay over the cars/drivers making extraction very difficult, and in the event of fire possibly lethal. Not a good period in racing history?

[MCS]

No, I think Donohue hit an advertising hoarding - or more specifically his helmet struck one of the stanchion bars that was holding it upright.

Wasn't it more to do with the fact that helmets - predominantly the infamous Griffin - were being pulled off or even broken, the fear of cars becoming enmeshed in the fencing and then igniting, not to mention the deaths of Hans-Georg Burger, Dick Parsons and others...

[D-Type]

Don't be too hard on catch fencing.

Solid barriers, whether "Armco" or Las Vegas-style concrete, were designed to accommodate a car striking obliquely and it would either slide along the barrier or be deflected back onto the track. Either way the primary objective, protection of spectators was achieved. The disadvantage was that in the event of a direct impact the driver was subjected to high G-forces.

Catch fencing was designed to absorb the impact of a car by progressive failure, stretching and wrapping around the car. Again the primary purpose was the protection of spectators with the bonus of being less damaging to the drivers as the imposed G-forces were reduced. As such they were fairly effective and took up less space than run-off areas.

The major disadvantage was that marshalls had great difficulty reaching a crashed car. They couldn't approach from behind or between the layers of fencing because they could not be certain whether a particular layer had remained intact. They could only approach from the track through the hole the car had made. They were then faced with a bundle of chain link fencing to cut through.

The alternatives are run-off areas and gravel traps where there is space and tyre barriers where there is not. The tyre barriers absorb energy and cushion the blow.

The main reason that racing is safer today lies in the design of the car. Effectively the tub is a "safety cell" with energy absorbing elements attached to it. It may look gruesome when wheels and suspension are ripped off, but that absorbs a lot of energy.

But it is never possible to cater for freak circumstances: Armco not installed correctly, cars going under the barrier, drivers being struck by a catch fencing post, drivers being struck by broken parts of the suspension, cars "aquaplaning" over the gravel trap, cars diiging in to a gravel trap on one side and flipping.

Bike riders need different protection from cars: solid barriers and catch fencing offer the rider no protection, a bike may slide under a tyre barrier when a car won't, etc. I don't know what the current preferred choice is.

[Tony Matthews]

Originally posted by D-Type
Don't be too hard on catch fencing.

I think the idea was good, the materials weren't.

[picblanc]

Originally posted by D-Type

Bike riders need different protection from cars: solid barriers and catch fencing offer the rider no protection, a bike may slide under a tyre barrier when a car won't, etc. I don't know what the current preferred choice is.

Air fencing & gravel traps.

[Kpy]

Catch fencing was still used as late as the French GP 1985. Nigel Mansell had a tyre explode at the end of the Mistral straight and ended up in the fencing. Mansell was knocked unconscious after a fence-post hit him on the head. He was hospitalised and wasn't allowed to compete in the race.
Later that year, the FIA banned catch-fences, but I've no idea if the two events were linked.

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by MCS
No, I think Donohue hit an advertising hoarding - or more specifically his helmet struck one of the stanchion bars that was holding it upright.

Wasn't it more to do with the fact that helmets - predominantly the infamous Griffin - were being pulled off or even broken, the fear of cars becoming enmeshed in the fencing and then igniting, not to mention the deaths of Hans-Georg Burger, Dick Parsons and others...

The odd thing is that when you watch many accidents of the time you notice the catch-fences DID actually slow errant cars quite progressively in a much more effective way than many a gravel trap (or these days tarmac apron) and tyre wall. The basic idea was sound, but the execution wasn't so hot!
Posts could be utterly lethal and as you say, a car could roll itself up in a ball of chain-link from which it was difficult to remove the driver. But the impacts, the dead-stop type which are real killers, were much less likely....so long as no one went off in exactly the same place once the fence was down.

I guess it's one of those measured-risk situations that H&S people get all excited about these days.
Was the reduction of heavy impacts off-set by the possibility of a stray pole coming through your visor or being trapped by fire?

Of course fire was becoming less of a problem when the catch fencing bug really bit on most tracks and there aren't actually that many cases of drivers killed by posts as far as I can recall(although one is too many, I realize).

As in so many aspects of our sport, the perception is maybe worse than the reality?

Having said all that they cost also fortune to constantly replace, and the delays....

Imagine it now - we have safty car periods while a single car is pulled out of a three acre gravel pit,just in case... What would it be like having to rebuild every fence after every single incident today? We'd never finish an event!

And they looked bloody ugly...

Does anyone recall the very beefy lady fence-repairer at Silverstone who used to heave rolls of the stuff in and out of the truck, between races, like they were no heavier than bubble-wrap?

[alansart]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


Does anyone recall the very beefy lady fence-repairer at Silverstone who used to heave rolls of the stuff in and out of the truck, between races, like they were no heavier than bubble-wrap?

I thought it was Les Dickens, but he did have had some helpers.

The Donohue accident was partially caused by catch fencing as it built up under the car and lifted him over the barrier and into the ad hoarding.

As a marshal at the time I thought it was horrible stuff. To get to a car you often had to run in the opposite direction and then back up the row to reach it. Cars used to be wrapped up in the stuff and on occasions drivers panicked when they couldn't get out. Several lost or damaged helmets, including Tony Brise and on several occasions I was a bit worried about about what I would find when I reached a wreck. Fortunately I never found a driver in a serious condition but do know of a few who did.

[Andrew Kitson]

OK quiz time. Any ideas who the first driver was ( in a 1970s UK race meeting ) to test the catch fencing to find out if it actually worked? Also what circuit, car and when?

[alansart]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
OK quiz time. Any ideas who the first driver was ( in a 1970s UK race meeting ) to test the catch fencing to find out if it actually worked? Also what circuit, car and when?

Off the top of my head, I'd say Silverstone. Maybe late 1973, but I go for 74. No idea what and who though!

[Andrew Kitson]

Silverstone yes, year wrong.

[RStock]

Some catch fencing mayhem at the 75 British GP .

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

You can see it really wrap up Jochen Mass and him having to hold it off of himself . If there had been a fire , it could have been compounded by the fencing .

[alansart]

Originally posted by REDARMYSOJA
Some catch fencing mayhem at the 75 British GP .

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

You can see it really wrap up Jochen Mass and him having to hold it off of himself . If there had been a fire , it could have been compounded by the fencing .

I'm in that clip, the marshal wearing the funny hat, wondering where to go to get to Mass's and Donohues car. When I went out of shot I tried to jump over the fencing and fell flat on my face!

[bigears]

Could you tell us more about the carnage?

It would be interesting to see your perspective during that day.

[alansart]

Originally posted by bigears
Could you tell us more about the carnage?

It would be interesting to see your perspective during that day.

I was a Stowe and it wasn't that bad. John Watson, Mass and Donohue all went off into the catch fencing without any real damage. The major problem was at the next corner Club where the big pile up happened. All the cars that went off at Club, almost went off at Stowe, they were just riding on top of the water - very surreal! The entrance to Stowe is slightly uphill which possibly saved many, but by the time they went down hill to Club they were passengers!

[Allan Lupton]

I think that was the day Chris Tooley effectively had the race stopped: he was Chief at Club (IIRC) and had a lot of customers in the catch fencing, but his marshals couldn't get them out as (a) as Duncan said, it's not easy to know which way to go in and (b) they were in danger of being collected by the next errant car.
You wouldn't have wanted a fire in the catch fencing either.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
OK quiz time. Any ideas who the first driver was ( in a 1970s UK race meeting ) to test the catch fencing to find out if it actually worked? Also what circuit, car and when?

I know you say UK, but the first time I personally saw catch-fencing in operation was at Levin (New Zealand) on 15 January 1972. The European-based drivers were horrified when they arrived for practice and saw the fences - I seem to remember Frank Gardner was one of the most vocal. In the race his engine cut off momentarily and pitched his Lola T300 into the fencing. He lost a wheel, but the damage was an awful lot less than if the fence hadn't been there - he would have gone straight across the grass verge into an earth bank.
He wasn't so critical of the fences after the meeting

[Andrew Kitson]

I put UK as I was unsure if we were the first, but not, going by your post!
The first catch-fencing seen here was indeed at Silverstone. 4 layers protecting the drivers from
the hard sleepers at Woodcote, first used at club meetings facing the club straight.

Derek Lawrence was the first to try it out, in his works Titan FF car on 30th July 1972.
His car stopped buried in the second layer, on the very last lap of a typically frantic FF
race on the club circuit.

Source: Autosport August 3rd 1972, page 3. Includes a photo of him going in.

[JtP1]

Originally posted by MCS


Wasn't it more to do with the fact that helmets - predominantly the infamous Griffin - were being pulled off or even broken, the fear of cars becoming enmeshed in the fencing and then igniting, not to mention the deaths of Hans-Georg Burger, Dick Parsons and others...

Was it not that someone had a Griffin come off in the flooded British GP that ended up with most of the field in the catch fencing, when the studs holding the strap to the helmet failed. Griffin said they were designed to fail at a level where the strap was better coming off as it would result in a lesser injury. They offered to replace the studs for stronger ones that would fail under a much higher load for anyone that wished free of charge.

[Lee Nicolle]

My memories of catch fencing is a big Formula 5000 prang at Sandown in the late 70s where a car was slowed but got very tangled up in it too. From memory it was Kevin Bartlett.
Kevin if you see this maybe some thoughts.

[Paul Hurdsfield]

I seem to remember at the time lots of discussions about the use of either Frangible or non Frangible rivets to hold the chin straps to the helmets? but then again maybe I'm confused again

Originally posted by JtP1


Was it not that someone had a Griffin come off in the flooded British GP that ended up with most of the field in the catch fencing, when the studs holding the strap to the helmet failed. Griffin said they were designed to fail at a level where the strap was better coming off as it would result in a lesser injury. They offered to replace the studs for stronger ones that would fail under a much higher load for anyone that wished free of charge.

[stuartbrs]

There was an Australian company that was developing massive air filled bags about 10 years ago, obviously they never solved the problem of open wheeler cars going under them.

F1 drivers over the years have often said that tarmac run off is better, indeed, the massive amount of speed Senna managed to wash off in the few metres of tarmac before he hit grass/gravel before his fatal crash may have been a little different if the tarmac went for another 10/20 metres or so.

As for tyre barriers, obviously they do the job, but that Burti crash he had in the Prost at Spa a few years back was horrific. The car submarined under the tyres and whilst watching, i was thinking, "****".. had it been an 80`s/early 90`s breeed of F1 car them he would have been up the creek with no propolsion.

Somewhere, I have an old Beta recording from 1980/81 of a Ligier ploughing through catch fencing and it looks bloody horrible.

In Karts, Ive hit the wood chips at about 90Kmh or so, and its amazing how quick you stop... whatever the velocity/weight/power equation is I have no idea, still impressive though.

There was a bike rider here in Tasmania riding on open roads that hit wire fencing they use on highways now, at about 3 times the speed limit, 12 months on, there are still people having counciling over seeing the aftermath of that one.

Love them or hate them, moder F1 cars are, thankfully, incredibly safe, I never want to see another Senna type accident again in my life. Watching Kubica in Canada was bad enough, that was seriously impressive.

[David Lawson]

I am at work so can't check but didn't catch fencing originate at Zandvoort, I have no idea in which year.

David

[alansart]

Originally posted by Paul Hurdsfield
I seem to remember at the time lots of discussions about the use of either Frangible or non Frangible rivets to hold the chin straps to the helmets? but then again maybe I'm confused again

'Frangible' bolts. A word not many heard of at the time. It was the explanation to Tony Brise's helmet coming off.

[simonlewisbooks]

I think Zandvoort was the first place to use catch fencing, although in a slightly different configuration to how we later saw it.
The idea was certainly promoted as a safety feature by John Hugenholtz and there was much discussion in the press. Many doubted the track would have gained a licence in Britain as the fencing was not backed up by anything else in many places and once felled, left some of the spectator areas effectivly open to the track!

Here's Chris Amon in the 1969 Dutch GP with not a great deal twixt car and spectators...even our local autograss club would wince at these arrangements today.

[picblanc]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
I think Zandvoort was the first place to use catch fencing, although in a slightly different configuration to how we later saw it.
The idea was certainly promoted as a safety feature by John Hugenholtz and there was much discussion in the press. Many doubted the track would have gained a licence in Britain as the fencing was not backed up by anything else in many places and once felled, left some of the spectator areas effectivly open to the track!

Here's Chris Amon in the 1969 Dutch GP with not a great deal twixt car and spectators...even our local autograss club would wince at these arrangements today.

Great photo but!! we might moan how far from the action we are now days, but in those days what were they thinking!!?

[Roger39]

Does anyone know if there were regulations regarding the fencing...pole of certain diameter, made of x wood, fence to be so high etc etc?

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Roger39
Does anyone know if there were regulations regarding the fencing...pole of certain diameter, made of x wood, fence to be so high etc etc?

According to that Autosport report, the Silverstone fencing was 1.2 metres high, made from 8 1/2 gauge plastic-coated wire woven into 2in mesh and wired on to 3in wooden posts, which were spaced 10ft apart and set 2ft in the ground. There were four rows and the next location for them was to be Becketts for the GP circuit.

[RStock]

Originally posted by alansart

I'm in that clip, the marshal wearing the funny hat, wondering where to go to get to Mass's and Donohues car. When I went out of shot I tried to jump over the fencing and fell flat on my face!

I wouldn't call it a funny hat . I'd say it was a rather nice hat . Of course , I would say that as I had one just like it at one time .

I was a Stowe and it wasn't that bad. John Watson, Mass and Donohue all went off into the catch fencing without any real damage. The major problem was at the next corner Club where the big pile up happened. All the cars that went off at Club, almost went off at Stowe, they were just riding on top of the water - very surreal! The entrance to Stowe is slightly uphill which possibly saved many, but by the time they went down hill to Club they were passengers!

Seems I recall a more manic scene that the one in the video I posted . I thought there was a car that caught part of the fencing and stretched it out a bit until it snapped back . And one getting a wad of the fencing caught on a tyre and wrapped around it .

I tried to find video of it , but couldn't . Could that be what was happening at Club ? Could it be another race I'm thinking of ? Could I be daft and making things up ? Does anyone else recall this ?

[RacingMonk]

Originally posted by alansart


I was a Stowe and it wasn't that bad. John Watson, Mass and Donohue all went off into the catch fencing without any real damage. The major problem was at the next corner Club where the big pile up happened. All the cars that went off at Club, almost went off at Stowe, they were just riding on top of the water - very surreal! The entrance to Stowe is slightly uphill which possibly saved many, but by the time they went down hill to Club they were passengers!

I remember the film of the 1975 pile up. I was a bit upset as a wee boy at seeing one of the marshalls apparently hurt but don't recall anyone mentioning him....was he OK?

[alansart]

Originally posted by RacingMonk


I remember the film of the 1975 pile up. I was a bit upset as a wee boy at seeing one of the marshalls apparently hurt but don't recall anyone mentioning him....was he OK?

I think he broke either an arm or a leg, but apart from that was ok.

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by REDARMYSOJA
Some catch fencing mayhem at the 75 British GP .

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

You can see it really wrap up Jochen Mass and him having to hold it off of himself . If there had been a fire , it could have been compounded by the fencing .

I remember seeing some photos from the chaotic 1973 Belgian GP, when the track broke up. Several cars were almost wrapped up in the catch-fencing there. Watching old footage of cars going into catch-fencing still makes me wince.

[RStock]

Originally posted by COUGAR508



I remember seeing some photos from the chaotic 1973 Belgian GP, when the track broke up. Several cars were almost wrapped up in the catch-fencing there. Watching old footage of cars going into catch-fencing still makes me wince.

That may be the more chaotic scene I was remembering .




From "Formula 1 : The Autobiography" by Gerald Donaldson .

Catchfencing -chainlink fence anchored by wooden posts- had been introduced by circuit designer John Hugenholtz at Zandvoort in 1962 , where John Surtees was one of the first men inadvertantly to test it when his Lola crashed .

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Roger39
Does anyone know if there were regulations regarding the fencing...pole of certain diameter, made of x wood, fence to be so high etc etc?

The 1975 FIA Yellow Book gives gives some details:

Galvanised and/or plastified wire netting loose mesh 40x40 - 60x60mm dia 3 - 4mm(preferably bound top and bottom), firmly attached to each post in minimum 3 points by wire, preferably passing through post - no horizontal wires admitted.
Drawing shows:
Height 1.0 - 1.2m
Posts in ground 0.6m
Post centres 2 - 5m
Wooden post preferably enveloped in plastified PVC tubing
Overall diameter 75 - 120mm
PVC thickness 3 - 8mm
Distance between fences 3 - 5m

Put simply the text stated that for sections not accessible to the public layers of catch fencing could be used as an alternative to steel guard rails (ie Armco), for speeds <100kph 1 layer, 100-150kph 2 layers, 150-200kph 3 layers, 200kph + 4 layers
For sections accessible to the public this constituted a first line of protection and should be supplemented by a fence reinforced with steel cables and a barrier for retaining the public

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by alansart


'Frangible' bolts. A word not many heard of at the time. It was the explanation to Tony Brise's helmet coming off.

As I recall it started all sorts of debat as to what frangible meant - to the point where Catchpole was making reference to it in his weekly cartoons!

BTW wasnt catch fencing partially blamed in the deaths of Hans-George Burger and Dick Parsons? In the latetr case it knocked his GPA off didnt it? I may be wrong on the above btw so dont take it as gospel.

[Bill Becketts]

BTW wasnt catch fencing partially blamed in the deaths of Hans-George Burger and Dick Parsons? In the latetr case it knocked his GPA off didnt it? I may be wrong on the above btw so dont take it as gospel.



Dick Parsons was killed directly because of the catch fence poles. A pole went through his visor.

I think Silverstone took out it's catch fences at the end of that season. Partly to do with the Parsons incident and partly because catch fencing was going out of favour generally, not least because of the sheer cost of maintaining it and the time lost during the day.

We lost count of the races (Usually Formula Ford) that were cancelled because of the time lost.

[John Saunders]

It was after Dick Parsons was killed that the Twin Window Bell helmet became very popular.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by John Saunders
It was after Dick Parsons was killed that the Twin Window Bell helmet became very popular.

Really? I thought they started using them around 78/79? I dont recall seeing many around after 81 or 82 though. Of course the Twin Window later became very fashionable in some circles, especially were pretty ice patterns and old english cars were concerned.

[hhh]

OK, lets put this discussion into perspective.
I know all about it, as it was my father who introduced catch-fencing at Zandvoort in the late '50's.

Before he started using and promoting catch-fencing, don't forget there was NO other protection than straw-bales, earth banks or concrete walls.
While the straw-bales didn't do anything, the earth-banks and walls would only provoke the most horrible damage as there was no room to dissipate the energy.
Look at any early crash, there usually was either a fire or the driver badly hurt in a destroyed car.

The idea of the catch-fencing was, that because of the design of the mesh, on impact, the fence would stretch while slowing the car down; if one laywer was not thought to be enough (depending on speed) there would be more layers.

The poles where there only to keep the fences up, they were not supposed to be thicker than 50-70 mmm, attached to the fence and three aluminium wires to keep the structure and should break easily on impact but stay attached to the fence.
The aluminium wires were attached to the fence and to the poles by steel u-type nails.
If a car went into the fence, the fence would stretch as would the aluminium wire until the wire snapped or got cut through by the steel pin or thin steel wire holding it to the system.

It was meant to be used mainly in corners where a head-on impact could be prevented. Do not forget that in those days any single-seater or sports car was basically dangerous on impact. It also protected the car from bad damage which could result in fires.

On a straight a fence was not the best solution, but it was the only solution available as there were no Armco barries available yet.
The fencing on the straights was more to protect the public than the driver.

When Armco barriers came, the best mix was Armco on the straights, fences in corners with Armco as last barrier.
Chain-link fences saved many lives even though a fire, when caught up in a fence, was a major problem, but it was a choice as the risk of a fire when going into a fence was MUCH less.

Recently, when Jackie Stewart introduced me to a gentleman, he said that it was my dad who saved many lives and that he was the first to act with safety measures in Motor Sports.
And he should know........................

[RStock]

Originally posted by hhh
.

Recently, when Jackie Stewart introduced me to a gentleman, he said that it was my dad who saved many lives and that he was the first to act with safety measures in Motor Sports.
And he should know........................

Jackie Stewart and John Surtees both spoke highly of the catch fencing , Stewart saying " Catchfencing was one of the best safety devises I had the misfortune to experience ." He gave it credit for making his shunt at Kyalami in 73 not as bad as it would have been . And Surtees also in his crash at Zandvoort , he said the crash would have been much worse if not for the catchfence as he had no steering .

[kevinbartlett]

I guess at this point, as one crash test dummy to another said, I should put my pennyworth forward.

Having tested Armco (1974) and catch fencing (1979), both at high impact speed. In both cases with F5000 cars. The Armco shunt caused me more angst than the later catch fence episode.

I firmly believe the '79 shunt was potentially the more life threatening, at least initially, and thank the presence of the fencing for saving my life. The speed at which I left the tarmac, due to a collapsed wheel, so no warning, was very high and a blunt bridge abutment awaited the (then) projectile.

The fencing which arrested the car, diminishing the speed enough for the car to start a crumple process. Even then trapping me for some twenty minutes or so (seemed like more). During the slowing process in the fencing I, stupidly, lifted my left arm to protect my head from the sticks and broke the wrist and forearm.

I believe to this day that, but for the fencing, I wouldn't be around to recite the episode.

[Elford68]

I think that, in those times, both armco and catch fencing were dangerous.

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Elford68
I think that, in those times, both armco and catch fencing were dangerous.

But a distinct improvement on trees....

[drivers71]

Another problem with catch fencing was illustrated at Silverstone during the 6 Hours Sports Car race in 1981.
Jochen Mass slid off at Woodcote during the torrential rainstorm, leaving the Joest Porsche 908/80 he was sharing with the boss and Volkert Merl, nicely entangled. The fencing did it's job ie: prevented the car from embedding itself into the barriers, but it's speedy extraction was not possible. So the flattened fencing could not be replaced, and the remainder of the race was compromised under yellow flags.

[Elford68]

yes

[B Squared]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Elford68
I think that, in those times, both armco and catch fencing were dangerous.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"State of the Art" is an ever-changing scale.

Brian

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by drivers71
So the flattened fencing could not be replaced, and the remainder of the race was compromised under yellow flags.

I would have thought that unusual at the time. From memory yellows stopped being waved after the driver and marshalls were clear plus perhaps a lap, then held stationary for maybe a lap or two more until everyone was clearly aware of the situation and then the yellow was pulled in.

In those days the assumption was that racing drivers were smart enough to know where such a problem existed and appreciate the need to avoid it.And mostly they did.

Today we assume no-one has any brains or restraint, let alone a sense of responsibility (and as a result many havn't), hence the customary retrieving of cars from otherwise deserted gravel traps under safety car conditions. To my mind it's part of the same mentality that sees barging and nerfing as acceptable. Safety improvements outside of driver's heads have spawned a serious lack of safety within many of them. :