84 replies to this topic

[sopa]

One day I started thinking about this matter and couldn't decide, who to choose! Shame the poll doesn't allow more options. Among "other" you may evaluate race-winner Brambilla, promising Caffi, most-races-without-a-win de Cesaris, multiple pole-man Fabi, Alfa Romeo's spearhead Giacomelli and everlasting Minardi-man Martini.

[COUGAR508]

My vote goes to Riccardo Patrese for his longevity, his ability to overcome adversity, and his pleasing driving style.

[Risil]

Hey, if you're allowing De Cesaris, I'm nominating Zanardi. His performances for Jordan and Lotus were very impressive. As was his home Grand Prix in 1999.

Mario Andretti, Jean Alesi and Nigel Mansell are surely worth a mention, too.;)

[BuzzingHornet]

Close for me between Patrese and Alboreto - I went for Alboreto. He had to deal with the 'Italian driving for Ferrari' thing, in additional being a race winning driver.

[rolf123]

Depends whether you consider Mario Italian or Italian-American. What the guy has achieved in racing is quite unbelievable. I suggest people read his Wikipedia in case they did not know how complete and all conquering this racer was in his day.

[WACKO]

Stefano Modena and Alessandro Zanardi, although the latter did not have his best results in F1. They are the most talented drivers of the past decades. Alboreto is a close follower, same for Fisichella.

To explain, Modena never really had the best material to his posession and didn't finish many races through mechanical failures, but if he did, he was impressive and very often in the points.

[potmotr]

Other - De Cesaris. Too young to take advantage of a good car, then spent the rest of his career in shabby machinery before showing what he could do in the Jordan 191.

[Francesc]

IMO they all are too close to really vote for one, but I voted for Elio

[sopa]

Originally posted by rolf123
Depends whether you consider Mario Italian or Italian-American.

I have simply counted those, who raced under Italian flag. So maybe the thread title should have been better worded.
If we took into account origin, it would get more difficult, who to include. Alesi should be partly Italian too.

[Slyder]

Where's Ascari?

wait, I guess that's more than 50 years....

[potmotr]

Originally posted by WACKO

To explain, Modena never really had the best material to his posession and didn't finish many races through mechanical failures, but if he did, he was impressive and very often in the points.

I'm sorry, I can't agree with that.

Modena gave up in his first race (Australia 1987) because he was too tired! After only 31 laps.

According to Nigel Roebuck, Keke Rosberg says you'd carry your car across the line in your first race if you had to.

He was pretty good in 1991, coming second in Canada and having the same result denied through engine failure in Monaco.

But this was in an update of the same Tyrrell that Alesi had been so, so strong in the year before.

And what about 1992? Four DNQs to none by Mauricio Gugelmin.

Sure, the car was appalling but Modena didn't deal with it at all well and lost his place in Formula One as a result.

I think he demonstrated good speed, but was too emotional.

[BlackCat]

i'd think Nannini had the biggest potential. alas... so my vote goes to de Angelis.

[molive]

What is Fisichella doing on the list?


My vote goes to Alex Zanardi, followed by Patrese!

[Earthling]

I voted for Elio, but i would change that for Fisico, and if Alesi was on that list, then he would easily take the vote.

[Coral]

I voted for Elio de Angelis. Elio in a Lotus...happy memories...

[arthurive]

Well of course I've GOT to comment on this thread!
Curious that you've said the last 50 years. It you said "Of all time" it would of course be Nuvolari.
If you said since the begiining of F1 (1950) the answer would of course be Alberto Ascari.

But you said the last 50 years, so fair enough.
I really think that it's between Patrese and Alboreto.
Patrese had so much promise and then had to endure the unfortunate witch HUNT (pun intended)
after Ronnie Peterson's death. It messed his career up terribly. Fortunately, Frank Williams allowed Riccardo
to have a bit of a late career renaissance, and he put in some fine drives. In 1991, he actually had the better of Mansell for about the 1st half of the season. His time at Williams partially saved his career and most now remember him fondly.
Alboreto was probably a bit more talented (raw speed) than Patrese, but Michele's best only lasted through the 1985 season. He was leading the Championship as late as Hockneheim (August) of that year over Prost.
Ferrari let him down horribly in the late races and his chances faded badly. After 1985, he was never the same driver.

Some others of note:

Alessandro Nannini - tough as nails, not mentally fragile as most Italians are stereotyped. If he had stayed out of that damned helipcopter.......Not enough pure speed to be a WC, but tough.
Lorenzo Bandini - Raced at a time when Italians were racing for Ferrari or nobody. Gentlemen racer who died tragically, represents that of another era.
Fisichella - Unable to get the best out of a top car, in the final season of a long, good career. He was at his best when he had to drag a marginal car up the grid.
Trulli - Great pure speed over one lap. Maybe a bit too much of a "thinker"? His performance seems to be that of a driver needing everything going as predicted. Doesn't seem to adjust to problems well enough.
Zanardi - Great Indycar career. His time at Williams kills it though. What the hell?
DeCesaris - Not nearly as wild as was often stated. Pretty fast, too inconsistent.
Capelli - Early promise, but probably flattered by the Newey March.
Modena - as stated in other posts, fast but not tough enough (or interested enough)
Pierluigi Martini - One of my favourites. If he'd have ever gotten out of Italian makeweights, and into some
serious machinery, he would be pretty high up on this list.

Christ guys, I've been waiting for the next Italian hopeful too damned long.
Liuzzi - gone
Pantano - never
Bortollotti seems to be on the way up. (he's only 19)

[GiancarloF1]

Originally posted by molive
What is Fisichella doing on the list?


My vote goes to Alex Zanardi, followed by Patrese!

Maybe Fisico happened to be an italian. And happened to be miles better F1 driver than Alex Zanardi.

I think this is a three way tie between Alboreto, Patrese and Fisichella.

[tifosi]

Nannini - I believe he would have been a WDC at some point if not for the accident.

[slideways]

Remember Trulli matched/bettered Alonso, and has been the most impressive of the Toyota drivers.

My vote goes to Patrese also, wonderful driver to watch when he was on.

[Rob]

Originally posted by arthurive
If you said since the begiining of F1 (1950) the answer would of course be Alberto Ascari.

I'm not sure, his championships were in F2 cars ;)

[Phucaigh]

Trulli if he had a top car would be stunning in my opinion.

He doesn't drive for Ferrari but they give him ice cream ;)

[potmotr]

Originally posted by Phucaigh
Trulli if he had a top car would be stunning in my opinion.

I think if he was a really top driver he'd have been closer to Alonso more of the time, Monaco 2004 notwithstanding.

[dutra]

Originally posted by molive
What is Fisichella doing on the list?

At least he is better than Lavaggi, for sure. I'm not that sure between Fisico and Montermini though...

[Nitropower]

I won't get into eternal with-Alonso comparisons.

I haven't been lucky to see most of those race so I can't be objective.

But ffs Fisichella? No offense but it is a joke to include him between the best. I've been reviewing this weekend the 2004-2007 seasons and he was so so so so bad. Always overtaken when under pressure, always finding it impossible to overtake others, bad race starts. And he had a great car. Bad luck and stuff apart, that's not his fault. But when it was in his hands, he always screwed up.

[hallo]

Originally posted by slideways
Remember Trulli matched/bettered Alonso, and has been the most impressive of the Toyota drivers.

Trulli was embaressed by Alonso throughout 2003 and for half of 2004. So Trulli hardly 'matched him'.

[hallo]

Originally posted by Nitropower

But ffs Fisichella? No offense but it is a joke to include him between the best. I've been reviewing this weekend the 2004-2007 seasons and he was so so so so bad. Always overtaken when under pressure, always finding it impossible to overtake others, bad race starts. And he had a great car. Bad luck and stuff apart, that's not his fault. But when it was in his hands, he always screwed up.

The other drivers on the list werent much better and most worse. Patrese had more years in top cars and failed badly and I doubt any of the others have records as good as fisichella compared to their team mates. Fisichella is probably the best one on the list he just looks bad because he was teamed up against an Alonso.

[chrisj]

Where's the "Rossi" option?

Seriously, I voted for Patrese. He was really good for a long time - from the '70's into the '90's. He's worth a vote just for the youtube video of him and his wife.

[potmotr]

I think Patrese was really good, but couldn't produce the goods when he finally got into a world beating car.

He was awesome in the first half of 1991 in the FW14, and shaded Mansell.

But sadly he couldn't manhandle the active FW14B to the same degree as Our Nige so couldn't capitalise.

A great shame, Patrese would have been an awesome champion.

[potmotr]

The more I think about this, the more it seems Italy has been a country of nearly men in Formula One, particularly in the past quarter century.

Alboreto - Good in his day, but not good enough to sustain a world championship challenge against the likes of Prost, then he was shaded by Berger at Ferrari.

Capelli - The next big thing for a time in the late 80s but stayed at Leyton House one season too long, and jumped into a Ferrari at the worst time ever. Poor guy, he was great in 88 and at Paul Ricard in 1990.

Trulli and Patrese and Modena (see earlier posts).

Nannini - Fast for sure, but I'm not convinced he'd have dealed with the politics at Ferrari had he moved there as is often suggested he would.

Fisichella - Watched his Renault team mate win 14 races and two world championships while he could manage just two wins. Enough said.

[noikeee]

Voted Patrese, but this was a really difficult choice.

[arthurive]

In my earlier post, I forgot deAngelis.
A classy driver, who was a superior to Mansell at Lotus, and quick enough to keep Senna more than
interested at Lotus in 1985.

So, because I'm an authority (self proclamimed of course) on these Italian matters, here's the top 10 of the
last 50 years

1) Patrese
2) Alboreto
3) de Angelis
4) Trulli
5) Fisichella
6) Nannini
7) Bandini
8) Martini
9) de Cesaris
10) Capelli - Modena

[GiancarloF1]

Originally posted by potmotr
The more I think about this, the more it seems Italy has been a country of nearly men in Formula One, particularly in the past quarter century.

Alboreto - Good in his day, but not good enough to sustain a world championship challenge against the likes of Prost, then he was shaded by Berger at Ferrari.

Capelli - The next big thing for a time in the late 80s but stayed at Leyton House one season too long, and jumped into a Ferrari at the worst time ever. Poor guy, he was great in 88 and at Paul Ricard in 1990.

Trulli and Patrese and Modena (see earlier posts).

Nannini - Fast for sure, but I'm not convinced he'd have dealed with the politics at Ferrari had he moved there as is often suggested he would.

Fisichella - Watched his Renault team mate win 14 races and two world championships while he could manage just two wins. Enough said.

Alboreto led the WDC halfway through 1985, and suffered a lot of bad luck against Prost in the autumn races. He was definately a top driver.

[GiancarloF1]

Originally posted by hallo


Trulli was embaressed by Alonso throughout 2003 and for half of 2004. So Trulli hardly 'matched him'.

Indeed. Trulli is overrated. His racecraft is critical, and didn't achieve anything in his carreer. 8 top3 finishes is a pretty weak result. As much as some people detract Fisico here, his results were much more impressive even excluding the two Renault years.

I think we see again a trend that some drivers don't get their deserved respect no matter what they are doing and always will be remembered as bad. Frentzen, Ralf Schumacher or Fisichella fell in this group. Others however, no matter how much they fail, always get the excuses and will be remembered as shining talents. Heidfeld, Trulli, Zanardi, Irvine etc. joins here.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Rossi.

[Ultra150]

Originally posted by rolf123
Depends whether you consider Mario Italian or Italian-American. What the guy has achieved in racing is quite unbelievable. I suggest people read his Wikipedia in case they did not know how complete and all conquering this racer was in his day.

One of the greatest, most versatile to ever grasp the rim.

[Rob]

Originally posted by paranoik0
Voted Patrese, but this was a really difficult choice.

Yup, found it hard to decide between Patrese and Alboreto. Went for Alboreto purely on a gut feeling.

[Phucaigh]

Originally posted by GiancarloF1


Indeed. Trulli is overrated. His racecraft is critical, and didn't achieve anything in his carreer. 8 top3 finishes is a pretty weak result. As much as some people detract Fisico here, his results were much more impressive even excluding the two Renault years.

I think we see again a trend that some drivers don't get their deserved respect no matter what they are doing and always will be remembered as bad. Frentzen, Ralf Schumacher or Fisichella fell in this group. Others however, no matter how much they fail, always get the excuses and will be remembered as shining talents. Heidfeld, Trulli, Zanardi, Irvine etc. joins here.

Trulli is among the best and the slick tyres will show that.
What if the engine hadn't failed when he was leading the Austrian GP in a Prost?
Jordan were too unreliable.
At Renault, he was team mates with Alonso, each got 1 race win. It seems talks with Toyota after his Monaco win didn't go down well with Flavio since he was being dumped and losing a paycheck.
At Toyota in 2005 he was 2nd in the WDC for a quarter of the season and better than Ralf or if we talk about Italian drivers, better than Fisichella who had a title winning car.

Trulli never had the best car for a season, Trulli outqualified Alonso, each had one race win and I would say Trulli has gotten better with age and it would be interesting if they were team mates again especially with slick tyres.

[topski100]

italian driver poll with no ascari seems pointless

[thiscocks]

Alboreto
Bandini
Martini

[ashnathan]

Liuzzi

[Owen]

Think I'll go Patrese.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by GiancarloF1


Alboreto led the WDC halfway through 1985, and suffered a lot of bad luck against Prost in the autumn races. He was definately a top driver.

True, and he had impressed a lot in Tyrrell in the beginning of his career. The thing is... do we ignore the 9 mostly poor years in F1 he had after 1985?

[sopa]

I'm a bit surprised, how overlooked Nannini has been in this poll. The ever-improving Sandro was matching team-mate Piquet and had some exciting battles even with Senna himself during the course of 1990 before he got badly injured. Probably a longer career would have given him more attention. Certainly it would have been exciting to see him against Schumacher in the Benetton in 1992.

I also think Alboreto and Patrese have been a bit flattered in this poll by the fact that they, together with Fisi and Bandini, have been the only ones to have driven in a car with championship winning potential. In Patrese's case it actually happened on multiple occasions: Brabham and Williams.

[panzani]

I would guess this weird timeline 'last 50 years' was chosen on purpose to let Alberto Ascari -- the best Italian driver ever -- out of the poll...

[Rob]

Originally posted by panzani
I would guess this weird timeline 'last 50 years' was chosen on purpose to let Alberto Ascari -- the best Italian driver ever -- out of the poll...

Nuvolari was better ;)

Ascari is still second though

[Risil]

Originally posted by panzani
I would guess this weird timeline 'last 50 years' was chosen on purpose to let Alberto Ascari -- the best Italian driver ever -- out of the poll...

Bah, Nuvolari, Varzi and Mario Andretti might contest that distinction.

If Mario's spent the first third of his life as an Italian citizen, he belongs on this list, IMO. In this context, nationality is more about who the nation identifies as its own, rather than who identifies with the nation. And I think the crowd at Monza in 1982 saw Mario as one of their own.

[Barramut]

Patrese was slower than Piquet and Mansell.
But Piquet was helping Alessandro Naninni to become more a pro driver, on fitness and quit smoking.

Prior to his helicopter accident, where he lost his hard, Naninni was frequently outpacing Piquet.

I also appreciated Emanuelle Naspeti and Andrea Montermini in F3000. Its a pitty they never got a decent chance at F1.

Teo Fabi was also a match for the young and daring Berger with the Toleman BMW-Turbos.

Its a shame that they only had Minardi to go, just because Ferrari is racist when it comes to think about drivers.

[sopa]

Originally posted by panzani
I would guess this weird timeline 'last 50 years' was chosen on purpose to let Alberto Ascari -- the best Italian driver ever -- out of the poll...

The purpose of this poll was to make it more difficult, which is why the period of last 50 years is chosen, when Italy has never won a drivers championship nor had a driver everyone acknowledged to be one of the very best of their own time. This does create an interesting poll situation.

I see no point in asking about all times, where everyone would vote either for Nuvolari or Ascari. The answers seem too obvious and the drivers from the last half a century are all left out.

[noikeee]

Yeah, obviously if we not consider Nuvolari and Ascari who were clearly top class, the poll/thread becomes a lot more interesting. Why do people always have to whine about polls?

[arthurive]

This is a good poll, by leaving out Ascari. It makes it more interesting.
Minor ammendment: Why not say, the greatest Italian driver since Ascari's death (1955)?

That allows us to include Luigi Musso and Eugenio Castellotti into the discussion.
Admittedly, they're hard to discuss, having died in 1958 (Reims) and 1957 (Modena test) respectively.
Both were quick, but probably a bit too brave, having been made so by the constant politicking and gamesmanship displayed by the tyrant, Enzo Ferrari. In some respects, their deaths were facilitated by that cruel man.