28 replies to this topic

[Alan Cox]

While making a brief stop in Hawick yesterday, on my way to a family funeral, I picked up the following excellent illustrated booklet on local motor cycle racer, and 6 times TT-winner, Jimmie Guthrie. Produced by the local history society, it is very well produced and cost a modest £2.50. The back cover illustration is of Jimmie on his Norton during his final race at the Sachsenring on 8th August 1937.


I also picked up this 'flyer' for a forthcoming exhibition (March-October) to celebrate the town's other motor cycle "great", Steve Hislop. Nice to see a local authority supporting their motor sporting history.

[fines]

Yes, well done!

Guthrie was perhaps the best of all pre-war motorcycle champions - a true legend.

[kevthedrummer]

Alan, did you get the chance to visit the Jimmie Guthrie exhibition, or is it closed at the moment? It's well worth a look. Entry is free and I seem to remember they have three of his bikes. It's situated in the museum in Wilton Park. A short distance away is a statue of Guthrie, opposite one of Hizzy. The Hizzy exhibition has been on for a while (at least two years) but it's obviously seasonal. There are some fascinating items in it, including his school reports and an x-ray of his broken neck after his bad crash at Brands. Last time I was down I drove out to the desolate hill top where his helicopter came down. There is a nice little memorial cairn at the spot. I have some vintage postcards of Guthrie. I'll scan and post them later.

[Alan Cox]

Thanks for that info, Kev. I remember visiting the Hawick museum many times as a young lad, visiting my grandparents during summer holidays, although in those days I didn't take much detail on board but I do remember well the Guthrie statue in the park. I must arrange to make a longer visit in the near future.

[Russell Burrows]

According to one eye witness, Stanley Woods, the Sachensring crash was caused by the 'foul riding' of a DKW rider, Kurt Mansfeld. The Norton factory said it was due to a broken conrod, but I've never read an account where any evidence for the latter was said to have been produced. 1937, Anglo-German relations more than a little tense - who knows.....

[D-Type]

Interesting, I always associate Hawick with the "game played by big men with odd-shaped balls" rather than with motor sport.

[fines]

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
According to one eye witness, Stanley Woods, the Sachensring crash was caused by the 'foul riding' of a DKW rider, Kurt Mansfeld. The Norton factory said it was due to a broken conrod, but I've never read an account where any evidence of of the latter was said to have been produced. 1937, Anglo-German relations more than a little tense - who knows.....

And evidence of the former? I don't know, Mansfeld was a respected rider, at least post-war. I've never heard any of those accusations.

[Russell Burrows]

Originally posted by fines
And evidence of the former? I don't know, Mansfeld was a respected rider, at least post-war. I've never heard any of those accusations.

Woods says he saw the entire incident and was also first to reach Jimmie immediately after the crash. Guthrie had a huge lead and Mansfeld was about to be lapped by him when, to use the modern parlance, the DKW rider shut the gate on Jimmie. Woods says that the corner at which the crash happened was flat out for Guthrie but not for Mansfeld. Stanley's view was the German was attempting to show he was as fast as Guthrie, presumably by keeping Jimmie behind him That he described the incident as 'foul riding' on the part of Mansfeld could be interpreted as meaning that in Wood's view, Mansfeld acted deliberately ? I should add that Stanley's quotes are not dated, therefore it's unclear if he held to this view throughout his life.

[kevthedrummer]

According to the Jimmie Guthrie book produced by Hawick Archaeological Society Woods made the claim about Mansfeld in 1992, during an interview with Mick Woollett for his book Norton .

[Russell Burrows]

Jimmie's body at the hospital at Chemnitz on the day of the crash. Apparently, 'many hundreds' filed past to pay their respects.

The article I'm quoting from says ....'.the German public, like Woods, believed that Mansfeld was the guilty party'.

Apparently, Jimmie was hugely popular in Germany and the Fuhrer himself had a brass statue of Mercury cast in his honour. Oh, and the gentlemen surrounding the body are from the NSKK - which may mean something to some.....

[Alan Cox]

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Apparently, Jimmie was hugely popular in Germany

According to the Guthrie booklet:

"They (the Germans) were desolate about Jimmie Guthrie, for they loved him dearly. He lay in state, a soldier at each corner of his bier, until arrangements could be made to take him back to Scotland. The train was given a military escort to the German frontier."

[exclubracer]

Is it just me? I find that photograph somewhat macabre, to say the least.

[Russell Burrows]

Originally posted by exclubracer
Is it just me? I find that photograph somewhat macabre, to say the least.

Our Anglo Saxon sensibilities can be offended by such displays, but there's little doubt it was intened as a tribute. And, actually it wasn't that long ago that bodies were 'layed out' here in the homes of the recently 'departed'. Isn't it still part of Catholic ritual, in particular in Ireland ?

[neville mackay]

Slightly O/T, but Hawick's other somewhat tenuous link to motor sport history is that it was the scene of Jimmy Clark's first ever competitive event - an autotest at Stobbs Camp just outside the town.

I live in the vicinity and say hats off to the local museum and archaeological society who have done much to remind the rugby obsessed locals that its sporting provenance is not just linked to the oval ball!

[Alan Cox]

Slightly OT, but are you aware, Neville (being local), whether the trooper statue in Hawick High Street is the model for the Border Reivers logo which was applied to team cars in the 60s? I know that there are various statues of Border Reivers dotted around Border towns.

[neville mackay]

Interesting question Alan, to which I have no definitive answer! As you say, there are a number of similar statues dotted around the border towns. They are all different, albeit based around the essential component of the flag carrying horseman. The same applies to the border reivers logo. The version used by the racing team is similar to but different from that used by a number of other organisations in the region, most notably Scottish Borders Council. I did some research into this last year. I wanted to apply the border reiver logo for local car club purposes and did not want to fall foul of any trademark issues. I found at least four variants of the same theme so concluded that there was a free for all as far as the reiver image was concerned - a conclusion very much in keeping with the history and traditions of the area!

[Graham Gauld]

Neville and Allan

No : Stobbs Camp was far from being Jim Clark's first competition appearance. He had been rallying two years before that time. His first event was probably either a Berwick and District Motor Club rally or a Borders Young Farmers Club rally with the Sunbeam. However I have attachede a photo I took of Jim at Stobbs Camp with Ian Scott Watson's Porsche. Note, no crash helmet, because back then if a car had a roof you were not required to have a crash helmet.

Yes: The statue in the centre of Hawick of the Border Reiver was, indeed, the source of the BR insignia.

[neville mackay]

Thank you Graham. I sort of knew you'd soon be along to put me right!

[exclubracer]

Originally posted by Russell Burrows


Our Anglo Saxon sensibilities can be offended by such displays, but there's little doubt it was intened as a tribute. And, actually it wasn't that long ago that bodies were 'layed out' here in the homes of the recently 'departed'. Isn't it still part of Catholic ritual, in particular in Ireland ?

Russell.

My comment was due to JG's body being on open display with what appears to be severe facial injuries and also the swastika on the dias and the uniforms of the 'honour guard' which, although this event occurred prior to WW11, still has negative connotations for many people.

Just my personal opinion of course.

[Russell Burrows]

Hi Club

I can't decide whether your'e having a laugh or attempting to elevate PCism to a whole different level ? Just in case it's the latter: It's forbidden to wear the swastika in Germany/Austria. However, these states have not banned the image from appearing in films, TV, the internet, books and museums. Since the Guthrie image is more than seventy years old, I would have thought it was clear that it fell into the catergory of an historical artefact ? To the best of my knowledge no country on earth has ever banned the display of the swastika in every circumstance. Were this retrospectively to have been the case, the productive output of the Hollywood film indusry, the world of publishing and Britain's Channel Five television station, might have been drastically reduced (in the case of the latter, not necessarily a bad thing?) On the issue of showing Guthrie in what could be an injured condition, I think the historical artefact argument holds true here too. Of course, It's also the case that the image has appeared previously in various publications.

[exclubracer]

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Hi Club

I can't decide whether your'e having a laugh or attempting to elevate PCism to a whole different level ? Just in case it's the latter: It's forbidden to wear the swastika in Germany/Austria. However, these states have not banned the image from appearing in films, TV, the internet, books and museums. Since the Guthrie image is more than seventy years old, I would have thought it was clear that it fell into the catergory of an historical artefact ? To the best of my knowledge no country on earth has ever banned the display of the swastika in every circumstance. Were this retrospectively to have been the case, the productive output of the Hollywood film indusry, the world of publishing and Britain's Channel Five television station, might have been drastically reduced (in the case of the latter, not necessarily a bad thing?) On the issue of showing Guthrie in what could be an injured condition, I think the historical artefact argument holds true here too. Of course, It's also the case that the image has appeared previously in various publications.

OK Russell, that's fair comment. Wasn't having a pop at you, no offence intended.

BTW I'm about as un-PC as you could possibly imagine!

[Russell Burrows]

None taken exclub - well, only a little. Actually, I'm a Guardian reading soggy liberal.

[Doug Nye]

And an apparently rather spring-loaded one...?

Steve Hyslop - 11 times TT winner - was also from the Hawick area, having grown up with his brother Garry - himself killed while racing - at nearby Chesters? 'Hissy' finally ran out of luck in his Robinson helicopter near Teviothead, Roxburghshire, in mid-summer 2003, and not while taking any chances, merely finding himself trapped (and inexperienced) as the weather closed in over rising ground.

DCN

[Jambo]

Not to be pedantic but it was Hizzy, met him a few times was a lovely chap, so sad to see him go the way he did.

Amazing on a bike if on it, at one point he held the Donington lap record on the Monstermob Ducati, beating Rossi's on the RCV at the time.

[Arthur]

Is'nt the late Jock Taylor, sidecar world champion,also linked to the Hawick area?

[Alan Cox]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Steve Hyslop - 11 times TT winner - was also from the Hawick area,

See the opening post, Doug. As kevthe drummer notes (and also referred to on the 'Hizzy' exhibition flyer) there is a memorial cairn to Steve Hislop at Teviothead, close to where his helicopter came down.

[kevthedrummer]

[Twin Window]

A poignant image. NSU riders (L-R) Hermann-Paul Müller, Rupert Hollaus, Werner Haas & Hans Baltisberger pay their respects at the Jimmie Guthrie Memorial during the 1954 Isle of Man TT;



(Photo: © the Stuart Dent Archive)


Later that season Hollaus was killed, and by the end of 1956 Haas and Baltisberger had also perished...

[Rennmax]

The "Guthrie Stein" memorial at the Sachsenring