138 replies to this topic

[Garagiste]

Terms which are oft discussed, but I'm not sure I have seen a specific thread for before.
(Too broad a subject for a sensible search, so please merge or delete if I'm wrong Twinny, thanks).

Prompted by this from JYS:

"We have had [the British Grand Prix] since 1950. It's the oldest Grand Prix in the world and it would be terrible to lose it."

Now one might expect our Jackie to know better, but perhaps he's become resigned to the idea that if the majority consistently get it wrong, eventually they become right?
Personally I have long since stopped worrying about the abuse of 'Vintage' as in "Z list celeb left in their vintage MGB" as it's just a waste of breath complaining about it. In the eyes of the press, 'vintage' and 'classic' are interchangeable and I don't see anything altering that.

So, do any particular misuses of racing or automotive language make your blood boil? Have you resigned yourself that the media will always get it wrong? Is a brightly coloured livery still 'gay' in your book?

Discuss!

[john winfield]

Garagiste, just wait for all us old fogeys to sharpen our quills.........

For an OT starter, why can't people pronounce Scalextric....it's not Scalectrix, it's Scalextric!

And I liked GP 'practice' as it was in the 1970s...loads of it......often timed...sometimes not. Hence, 'timed' practice or 'untimed' practice. I don't like the term 'qualifying'. And 'Quali One', 'Quali Two' etc. really drive me mad. And 'GP2' ..... ugh!

Disgusted (vintage) of Tunbridge Wells

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think you have to consider the context of which audience they are speaking to. F1 would be even more boring if everytime you talked about it you had to use a specific grammar structure to be historically accurate.

When I worked in American open wheel racing, at the height of the CART vs IRL, I always referred to it as 'Indycars' even though neither series was. It wasn't neccessary to explain the differences everytime I talked to someone.

[Garagiste]

I'm in broad agreement there Ross, though of course US racing is a whole different minefield. I used to use 'Indycar' too, as when I said CART, the average UK layman heard 'Kart', leading to: "no - used to be called Indycar, you know, the thing that Mansell did".

[RA Historian]

Oh my, oh my. Where do we start?

Formula One has been increasingly misused. Drivers are "Formula One Champions" now, rarely referred to as World Champions.

Alberto Ascari did not win the Formula One championship. He was not the Formula One Champion. He won his two World Championships when the championship was run using Formula II regs. For crying out loud, even Motor Sport mag rated the Ferrari 500 as the best F-1 car of all time. Complete nonsense!

Carraciola, Lang, Rosemeyer, et al, did not win Formula One races. I doubt if the term was in use back then.

The term Grand Prix, once reserved to be used only for the "Grand Prize" of that particular country, is used for anything and everything in racing now. I was in Des Moines in 1990 for a Trans Am through the streets and learned from a tootsie on TV that what we were going to see was 'Grand Prix' racing. She then went on to explain that when cars race in streets that is 'Grand Prix' racing. The only segment of racing in the US that seemingly does not use the term Grand Prix is nascar, probably because nobody there can pronounce it.

In the American press and culture, any car older than, say, 15 years is a 'classic car'.

With regards to the above quote by JYS, he should know better of course, but it is indicative of the trend to completely disregard any history that came before what we are concerned with now. For example, now that there is only one 'Indy Car' series in the US the current IRL media guides, announcer references, and press materials completely disregard any history or records that occured before the IRL was founded in 1996. In addition, anything that happened in the "other series" while there were two is disregarded. I am tired of hearing that Scott Dixon, Dario Franchitti, et al, have only X number of wins, completely overlooking their wins in the departed CART series. It is hoped that with a bit of time the IRL will realize that they are now the custodians of American open wheel racing and will take off their blinders and include all history.

I could go on, but my list of peeves is probably too long. As a student of history all this revisionism, neglecting of the past, and gross misuse of terminology just grates the dickens out of me.

Tom

[Stephen W]

The main problem for me is I am not fluent in text-speak and don't want to be as it is lazy. Hence I shudder when the imbeciles on ITV refer to Quali 1, 2 or whatever, as there is no such word in my dictionary as "Quali".

For the mainstream press F1 and GP are interchangeable. GP2 is crap. Vintage should be used to describe wine. Finally I agree it should be Indycars!

[byrkus]

Originally posted by RA Historian
Alberto Ascari did not win the Formula One championship. He was not the Formula One Champion. He won his two World Championships when the championship was run using Formula II regs. For crying out loud, even Motor Sport mag rated the Ferrari 500 as the best F-1 car of all time. Complete nonsense!

On the same spirit, some people even say that every Indy 500 between 1950 and 1960 was in fact Formula 1 race.

[RStock]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I think you have to consider the context of which audience they are speaking to. F1 would be even more boring if everytime you talked about it you had to use a specific grammar structure to be historically accurate.

Yes , I tried to tell some folks awhile back that there was no "Formula One World Championship" until 1981 . I was treated as the village idiot .

When I worked in American open wheel racing, at the height of the CART vs IRL, I always referred to it as 'Indycars' even though neither series was. It wasn't neccessary to explain the differences everytime I talked to someone.

To me , Indycar has always been the correct way to refering to them . I would know exactly what someone wa refering to . I cringed when they wanted to refer to them as "Champ cars" . Though I suppose it could be technically correct , a Champ car to me will always be the front engine dirt cars . I still refer to them as Champ cars , though I believe "Silver Crown" car is the prefered term these days .

I also cringe when I hear someone say "He races a NASCAR" .

[canon1753]

1. JYS- on the oldest Grand Prix= He's correct, in the narrow sense that the 1950 British GP was the first ever round of the World Drivers Championship, and that history of GP's start there.

2. RA- NASCAR knows what Grand Prix are- Pontiacs

3. Plus the whole Indycar bit is screwy because CART was allowed to use the name Indycar by IMS for a few years. Indycar sounds better than most of the alternatives. (CART wasn't bad either, if you were sure if it was CART or kart)

4. NASCAR saying that the new guys are the best ever, with lip service to Petty, and maybe David Pearson, and everyone really knows the best is #3. (Maybe true, but try and compare Rusty Wallace with Lee Petty- not easy to do).

[RStock]

Originally posted by canon1753
1. JYS- on the oldest Grand Prix= He's correct, in the narrow sense that the 1950 British GP was the first ever round of the World Drivers Championship, and that history of GP's start there.

Oh good lord !

[jgm]

The way the car's identity has been completely lost in US racing only to be replaced by 'The Forty-Two Car' and 'The Twenty-Seven Car'.

The way Ecclestone is referred to by the press as the 'owner of F1' and the way Moseley is referred to by the same people as the 'F1 supremo' as if this was all the FIA did.

[canon1753]

Originally posted by REDARMYSOJA


Oh good lord !

I will admit that's a quirky way of looking at it... (Too much philosophy in college).

That also admits that "In the beginning was the British GP... (nothing matters before that, like that Nuvolari guy or the 1914 French GP, or GPs of the 30's etc....)" But it would be sad if there wasn't a British GP, just as it is sad that there won't be a French GP or GP de L'ACF. (which is the 1st GP in reality).

[Rob]

Originally posted by canon1753


I will admit that's a quirky way of looking at it... (Too much philosophy in college).

That also admits that "In the beginning was the British GP... (nothing matters before that, like that Nuvolari guy or the 1914 French GP, or GPs of the 30's etc....)" But it would be sad if there wasn't a British GP, just as it is sad that there won't be a French GP or GP de L'ACF. (which is the 1st GP in reality).

And then there's the 1901 Pau Grand Prix, which just messes everything up.

[cpbell]

In reply to REDARMYSOJA - please explain to this village idiot how there was no F1 World Championship until 1981.

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by jgm


The way Ecclestone is referred to by the press as the 'owner of F1' and the way Moseley is referred to by the same people as the 'F1 supremo' as if this was all the FIA did.

Yes, whenever Max is mentioned in the media he is described as the "F1 boss". Very simplistic and irritating, but is suits some media outlets who have an agenda against F1.

[slucas]

Strategy & Tactic. I wish they were used correctely, but their miss-use isn't confined to motorsport so maybe it's too broad a complaint for here.

[byrkus]

Originally posted by cpbell
In reply to REDARMYSOJA - please explain to this village idiot how there was no F1 World Championship until 1981.

Copy-paste from Wikipedia (yes, I know...)

The World Championship was originally established as the "World Championship for Drivers", i.e., without the term "Formula One" in the title. It only officially became the Formula One World Championship in 1981.

[cpbell]

Originally posted by byrkus


Copy-paste from Wikipedia (yes, I know...)

The World Championship was originally established as the "World Championship for Drivers", i.e., without the term "Formula One" in the title. It only officially became the Formula One World Championship in 1981.

Thank-you. I'm rather embarrassed that, despite having been an amateur student of Grand Prix history for nigh-on 20 years, I was unaware of the change in nomenclature.

[RStock]

Originally posted by cpbell
In reply to REDARMYSOJA - please explain to this village idiot how there was no F1 World Championship until 1981.

Because it was not called the "Formula 1 World Championship" until FISA named it that to start the 1981 season . Up until then , it was the "World Championship for Drivers " that just happened to use , (in the most part) cars that complied to "Formula One" specs and regulations . I believe it was in 1947 that the term "Formula One" was first used , but it merely refered to the type of car used , not the championship .

I'm sure someone more knowlegable than myself can fill you in with more detail , but that about sums it up .

[RStock]

Originally posted by cpbell


Thank-you. I'm rather embarrassed that, despite having been an amateur student of Grand Prix history for nigh-on 20 years, I was unaware of the change in nomenclature.

I see someone beat me to the reply . But don't be ashamed . I had to have that pounded into my head by someone who knew better . It's finally took hold .

[cpbell]

By the way, REDARMYSOJA, I think that the terms Formula 1 and 2 were not used until 1948 or 9 - from recollection, the terms Formula A and B were the original ones used. As to why the change was made, I'd love to know, but suspect that it may have been lost in the mists of time...

[D-Type]

Probably as simple an explanation as one secretary typed "Formula A" and "Formula B" while another typed "Formula 1" and "Formula 2" while a third typed "Formula I and "Formula II". For secretary substitute journalist or printer if you prefer. Or maybe two committee members dictated them differently.

It never really mattered until Bernie Ecclestone tried to register "Formula 1" as a trade mark - I believe unsuccessfully.

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by byrkus


Copy-paste from Wikipedia (yes, I know...)

The World Championship was originally established as the "World Championship for Drivers", i.e., without the term "Formula One" in the title. It only officially became the Formula One World Championship in 1981.

Wow! So the Wikipedians have picked up on this obscure fact? Someone at TNF showing his influence? If so, well done.

[Doug Nye]

Curious then that the Formula 1 Drivers' World Championship was created and administered by the FIA from 1950 forward - and that it was referred to as being the FIA Drivers' World Championship from time to time. Pedantry sometimes trips over reality, and vice versa. The essential point is that within the game, everybody always knew what they meant...

DCN

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by jgm
The way the car's identity has been completely lost in US racing only to be replaced by 'The Forty-Two Car' and 'The Twenty-Seven Car'.

Aha! There is another item which just makes me grind my teeth. This cancer started in nascar which for years has largely referred to its entries by number and not by car or driver. Probably because their audience can't understand anything more than a syllable or two. (I know, I know, sorry about that).

However in the last few years it has spread into just about all types of TV race reporting. Last month I tuned into the Daytona 24 Hrs off and on and it was frustrating as the devil. There were occasions when the announcers went for extended periods of time without mentioning a driver by name. It was constant references to "the 27 car is catching the 59 car". Good gosh, are they broadcasting to illiterates? I don't memorize the numbers of cars, tell who the blasted driver is!!!

The last two or three years of Champ Car saw the clueless Rick Benjamin as the announcer. It got so bad I was screaming at the TV set. Benjamin repeatedly used just the car number ("the 6 car is in the pits!") and rarely mentioned the driver. Frustrating as hell!

This cancer has also spread to other telecasts. Even the SCCA Runoffs (tape delayed on Speed for a couple months) had the announcers using numbers far more than names. It is one thing to have a 24 car IRL field, but the Runoffs are 25 races with some 500 total drivers. There is no way on earth that anybody watching the telecast other than the drivers' families know who the devil is driving the "56 car". Yet race after race the announcers blathered away about the "86 car passed the 16 when it slowed to avoid the spinning 42". FOR CRYING OUT LOUD TELL US WHO THE BLASTED DRIVER IS!!!!

Makes one want to search them out at the track and punch them in the nose!

Tom

[Nick Wa]

My pet hate is turn 7 or what ever. I'll recognize the 1st corner & the last corner as allowable but corners used to have names. It's a good job they don't use the old Ring any more, where would turn 137 be?
Also while I'm at it, as this is a British based forum I would appreciate a spell checker that recognizes RECOGNISES is the correct version.

Once a Pom, always a Pom.

[canon1753]

Originally posted by RA Historian
Aha! There is another item which just makes me grind my teeth. This cancer started in nascar which for years has largely referred to its entries by number and not by car or driver. Probably because their audience can't understand anything more than a syllable or two. (I know, I know, sorry about that).

However in the last few years it has spread into just about all types of TV race reporting. Last month I tuned into the Daytona 24 Hrs off and on and it was frustrating as the devil. There were occasions when the announcers went for extended periods of time without mentioning a driver by name. It was constant references to "the 27 car is catching the 59 car". Good gosh, are they broadcasting to illiterates? I don't memorize the numbers of cars, tell who the blasted driver is!!!

The last two or three years of Champ Car saw the clueless Rick Benjamin as the announcer. It got so bad I was screaming at the TV set. Benjamin repeatedly used just the car number ("the 6 car is in the pits!") and rarely mentioned the driver. Frustrating as hell!

This cancer has also spread to other telecasts. Even the SCCA Runoffs (tape delayed on Speed for a couple months) had the announcers using numbers far more than names. It is one thing to have a 24 car IRL field, but the Runoffs are 25 races with some 500 total drivers. There is no way on earth that anybody watching the telecast other than the drivers' families know who the devil is driving the "56 car". Yet race after race the announcers blathered away about the "86 car passed the 16 when it slowed to avoid the spinning 42". FOR CRYING OUT LOUD TELL US WHO THE BLASTED DRIVER IS!!!!

Makes one want to search them out at the track and punch them in the nose!

Tom

What's worse is that you don't know the driver, the car and sponsors. Why would brand X want to be funding something that they spend a huge amount of money to not get mentioned.

The IRL in its infancy ran the driver, car and sponsor along the bottom of the screen for a few races, because you could not read the names of the sponsors. They were too small to be seen on TV (literally). Then they dropped it.

[fines]

Originally posted by RA Historian
Aha! There is another item which just makes me grind my teeth. This cancer started in nascar which for years has largely referred to its entries by number and not by car or driver. Probably because their audience can't understand anything more than a syllable or two. (I know, I know, sorry about that).

However in the last few years it has spread into just about all types of TV race reporting. Last month I tuned into the Daytona 24 Hrs off and on and it was frustrating as the devil. There were occasions when the announcers went for extended periods of time without mentioning a driver by name. It was constant references to "the 27 car is catching the 59 car". Good gosh, are they broadcasting to illiterates? I don't memorize the numbers of cars, tell who the blasted driver is!!!

The last two or three years of Champ Car saw the clueless Rick Benjamin as the announcer. It got so bad I was screaming at the TV set. Benjamin repeatedly used just the car number ("the 6 car is in the pits!") and rarely mentioned the driver. Frustrating as hell!

This cancer has also spread to other telecasts. Even the SCCA Runoffs (tape delayed on Speed for a couple months) had the announcers using numbers far more than names. It is one thing to have a 24 car IRL field, but the Runoffs are 25 races with some 500 total drivers. There is no way on earth that anybody watching the telecast other than the drivers' families know who the devil is driving the "56 car". Yet race after race the announcers blathered away about the "86 car passed the 16 when it slowed to avoid the spinning 42". FOR CRYING OUT LOUD TELL US WHO THE BLASTED DRIVER IS!!!!

Makes one want to search them out at the track and punch them in the nose!

Tom

Mmh. Perhaps it's not a bad thing at all that you can't read any numbers on F1 cars these days?

[lustigson]

Originally posted by D-Type
It never really mattered until Bernie Ecclestone tried to register "Formula 1" as a trade mark - I believe unsuccessfully.

I believe B.C. Ecclestone did register 'Formula One', 'Formula 1' and 'F1' as trademarks. He only failed in registering 'Grand Prix' and 'GP', IIRC.

[Rob]

Originally posted by lustigson

I believe B.C. Ecclestone did register 'Formula One', 'Formula 1' and 'F1' as trademarks. He only failed in registering 'Grand Prix' and 'GP', IIRC.

No, he failed to register Formula One as a trademark because I remember reading the article. The judge quoted the Wikipedia article which stated that Formula One is a formula which governs the competition and other Formula One races take place outside the World Championship. On that basis, Bernie couldn't claim exclusivity and the registration was denied.

[2F-001]

[i]... Also while I'm at it, as this is a British based forum I would appreciate a spell checker that recognizes RECOGNISES is the correct version. [/B]

Er, but it isn't necessarily correct...
The nearest thing we have to a widespread standard authority in the UK for published English is the house style of the Oxford University Press (producers of, amongst much else, the OED). They have for a long, long time specified "z" spellings for those words were appropriate (such as "recognize") and have only very, very recently begun showing "s" spellings as acceptable alternatives  - with the "z" still listed first as the preferred version.

[BorderReiver]

About the only grammatical thing that bugs me in motor-racing is the use of "Overtake" as a noun.

As in;

"He did a good overtake." Or "I made some great overtakes".



THE WORD, YOU CRETINS, IS "PASS". Overtake is what you do to acheive a pass.

It makes me inordinately angry, but then again perhaps it's just me.

[Rob]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
It makes me inordinately angry, but then again perhaps it's just me.

I think it's about time I mention "winningest." This pseudo-word annoys me so much.

[ensign14]

Nouning verbs is quite common. After all, people are quite happy to talk about "a decent buy" rather than purchase. Let alone going out for a run. Plus in this case "overtake" might be more accurate; "pass" might refer to a lapping manoeuvre.

Originally posted by 2F-001
The nearest thing we have to a widespread standard authority in the UK for published English is the house style of the Oxford University Press (producers of, amongst much else, the OED). They have for a long, long time specified "z" spellings for those words were appropriate (such as "recognize") and have only very, very recently begun showing "s" spellings as acceptable alternatives  - with the "z" still listed first as the preferred version.

And this is because the -ize form is the more correct historical form; we get it from the Greek. The -ise is having it filtered via French. Let's face it, no-one ever writes capsise, do they?

"Analyze", though is always, always wrong. Totally different route (and root).

The number thing never bothers me. It's just like an epithet, instead of having to refer to the specific driver all the time. No different to saying "the Williams is catching the Red Bull".

[Odseybod]

Pet hate? The plural of Grand Prix becoming Grand Preeze ...

[cpbell]

Originally posted by Odseybod
Pet hate? The plural of Grand Prix becoming Grand Preeze ...

Me too. I want to shout at the culprit that "Prix" can be either singular or plural - it does not need pluralising (or should I say pluralizing ) with an "s"!

[alansart]

There's one word I hate in our beloved sport. I think it originates from America but is now common almost everywhere.

"Rookie"

I don't know why but it just makes me cringe every time I hear it

[David McKinney]

"Poleman" is the one that gets me

If you qualify to start a race from pole position you could, perhaps, be described as the pole man. But not the poleman

[canon1753]

Polesitter sounds so much better, to my ears anyway. (or I'm used to it)

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by canon1753
Polesitter sounds so much better, to my ears anyway.

Worse, to me, if possible.
Polesitters are surely those who (for some reason I know (and care) nothing about) sit on top of poles.
IMO a lot of the commentator-speak is supposed to save time by using abbreviations, but if they only realised that they can say a good deal less, they could say it in clear language rather than in code.
Except for radio commentators, they should remember that as we can also see the picture, or the racing circuit, we know what is happening and all we need to be told is the significance (unless that's obvious) and any detail we may not have spotted.

[RaymondMays]

Originally posted by cpbell


Me too. I want to shout at the culprit that "Prix" can be either singular or plural - it does not need pluralising (or should I say pluralizing ) with an "s"!

I might be dreaming this up, but I swear that when I was a young child in the late 70's / early 80's, I used to hear other kids referring to "Grand Prix X" (actually saying "X" as a separate word).

Did anyone else experience this, or was it limited to the children of Bourne?

[D-Type]

Commentators use of "Pee 1", "Pee 2", "Pee twenty" etc when they could just as easily say "First", "Second", "Twentieth"

Referring to the "Front row" of the grid when we have had a fully staggered grid for at least 20 years!

TV graphics consistently listing Drivers rather than Driver/Car combinations. One day Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, Red Bull etc will realise they aren't getting the exposure they deserve and pull out.

As pointed out earlier "A F1" or "a NASCAR" for "a Formula 1 car" or a "NASCAR car"

I can accept the differing US and British usage of the term "Vintage car" and "Vintage racing". If you go back to the concept of vintage wines, ie old and good then both derivative usages are equally valid.

And of course the the starting point for this thread: indiscriminate use by those who should know better of "Formula 1", "Grand Prix" and "Championship Race" as synonyms. Especially the extension, even used by professional writers using "Unofficial" to describe "Non-Championship" races.

Objections from the antipodeans to a generic use of "Tasman" for the Australian/NZ racing scene.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by canon1753
Polesitter sounds so much better, to my ears anyway.

No, just as bad (for exactly the same reason)

[cpbell]

Originally posted by Allan Lupton

Worse, to me, if possible.
Polesitters are surely those who (for some reason I know (and care) nothing about) sit on top of poles.
IMO a lot of the commentator-speak is supposed to save time by using abbreviations, but if they only realised that they can say a good deal less, they could say it in clear language rather than in code.
Except for radio commentators, they should remember that as we can also see the picture, or the racing circuit, we know what is happening and all we need to be told is the significance (unless that's obvious) and any detail we may not have spotted.

A lesson that J. Allen Esq. could have done with learning.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by RaymondMays


I might be dreaming this up, but I swear that when I was a young child in the late 70's / early 80's, I used to hear other kids referring to "Grand Prix X" (actually saying "X" as a separate word).

Did anyone else experience this, or was it limited to the children of Bourne?

Melissa Wilkes, who went on to play Jackie Wright in Grange Hill (and create the greatest moment in kids' TV history, when she ripped up Zammo's heroin packet after an exam), pronounced it thusly as a 9 year old on one of those stage school programme specials. "It says Grand Pricks here," she complained live on air.

Also on topic...allegedly Scott "F3 Class B" Stringfellow gave her membership of his dad's nightclub cos he was a fan of GH.

[RA Historian]

So and so "impacted" the wall. Unless my dictionary is too old, impact is not a verb.

So and so is on the "outside pole". We have more than one?

So and so is on the "row three pole". As I asked, we have more than one?

The overuse and misuse of the word "issue". Nobody has a problem anymore; now they have "issues". I remember cringing back in 2002 when Michael Andretti hit the wall at a race and the announcer said, "Andretti has an issue with the wall!" No kidding, really heard it.

Grrrrrr....

Tom

[Garagiste]

I'm sure he did have an issue with it, in that it ended his race!
I have noticed that drivers don't make mistakes any more, they "do" them instead (for sure).

One that the papers continually annoy me with is the use of '4X4' when they actually mean a vehicle with high emissions. Of course the Fiat Panda and the Lamborghini LM-002 are in the same leauge and should be taxed and congestion charged accordingly...

[brooster51]

Originally posted by byrkus


Copy-paste from Wikipedia (yes, I know...)

The World Championship was originally established as the "World Championship for Drivers", i.e., without the term "Formula One" in the title. It only officially became the Formula One World Championship in 1981.

I always assumed that the creation of the “Formula 1” World Championship for Drivers coincided with the creation of the World Championship for “Drivers and” Makes in 1981. Prior to 1981 there was no separate sports car championship for drivers, at least as far as I can find. In 1982 the name changed again to World Endurance Championship although it was still for both drivers and makes.

[Doug Nye]

"He podiumed..." AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DCN

[Giraffe]

And as now found also in most other walks of life these days, you have "issues" with aspects of your car, and not problems....... :